Redding sets of shell holders

[Reloadron]

Mr. Guffey

In the big inning reloaders did not know the difference between a comparator and a gage.. Most continue to believe L. Wills made a digital head space gage.

And then there was the other concept; to avoid confusing anyone I determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face and I determine the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head. And still; everyone is confused.

And then there are transfers and standards, I am the only one that uses them.

F. Guffey

You really need to quit lumping all reloaders and hand loaders into the same lot. That is really a bad habit. This may surprise you but you are not the only reloader or hand loader with an understanding of geometric tolerance and you are not the only guy in town familiar with standards equipment and transfer standards verse standards. I would hope this comes as no surprise to you. You seem to make plenty of assumptions concerning those who roll their own. Now if you will excuse me I need to return to work on my matter transfer device and my digital headspace gauges. I would venture a rough guess that some hand loaders / reloaders actually went to school. Some may hold degrees in other than mechanical engineers but worked closely with mechanical engineers over a 40 year career in engineering to include geometric tolerance while working EE. Believe me when I say You are far from the only one using actual lab standards.

Thank You & Have A Nice Day
Ron

[cw308]

I try to keep things simple and accurate . With my Rem 700 I use the bolt with the plunger spring removed for case headspace & case head to ogive to rifling setting, all by feel.Then the precision mic from RCBS & the Redding comp. shell holder set of 5 works for me. Keep it simple. Will give you the exact starting point every time.

[F. Guffey]

I need to return to work on my matter transfer device and my digital headspace gauges

You purchased a L. Willis comparator thinking you were purchasing a head space gage?

F. Guffey

[Reloadron]

No Guffy. I am working on a matter transfer device to transport an ex wife into center of a brick wall. As to case gauges? Naw, I just wing it, close enough for government work and all. Oh wait, I actually understand gauges and geometric tolerance and standards and I am a reloader too. Go figure huh?

Ron

[Metal god]

So I've been reading this thread but I have two members blocked so I don't ever see what they write . I keep seeing others commenting on cases having or not having head space . I was thinking how did that get brought up in this thread .

Turns out it was me

Originally Posted by Me

Example . Let say I needed my case head space to be 1.630 ( 308 )

Well I'm sorry about that guys . I should have been more clear on my point and what I was measuring . Although MANY reloaders have adopted the term "case head space" to mean the distance from case head to datum point on a rimless bottle neck case . I do understand that the case does not have head space and in fact SAAMI does not even have a term for the distance from head to datum point . None the less I have found many reloaders to understand the term "case head space" as well as understand that it is completely different then "head space" .

How ever it does seem there are a few dinosaurs still out there that cling to there ancient terminology and refuse to except new words and diffinitions where there were none into there vocabulary . All I can say to that is language does evolve over time and the future waits for nobody Either poop or get off the pot

[mehavey]

SAAMI does not even have a term for the distance from head to datum point...

But it very much does have a specific spec (sic ) as is often pointed out in its drawings ( Post #21 above)

Hereby ... and forevermore ... referred to as case headspace dimension.

[Metal god]

But it very much does have a specific spec

and that IMHO is the problem . There is a spec in the drawing and yet no universal or agreed upon term to use . I think it was slamfire that said he had been using the term case headspace for 10+ years and I've been using it for about 5yrs . That came about because I got sick of writing out "the measurement from head to datum line" then having to explain what that was . It just seemed easier to write case headspace instead . Everybody knew/knows what headspace is . If you add the word case to it , to me would seem logical you're referring to the case measurement that corresponds to the chambers headspace . YMMV

The term head clearance to me means the extra space if any left in the chamber when the cartridge is loaded . So lets say your headspace is 1.636 and your case headspace is 1.630 . That leaves you with a head clearance on .006

At least that's how I've been using those terms

[F. Guffey]

I think it was slamfire that said he had been using the term case headspace for 10+ years and I've been using it for about 5yrs

Reloaders are infatuated with the term 'head space'; 60+ years ago Wilson designed a gage, they named the gage 'case length gage', I was impressed. Again, the tool is a datum based tool. The case does not have head space and Wilson knew that.

At the same time presses were being built, some of the presses cammed over, the cam over presses were identified as 'bump' presses. Today reloaderes are claiming they can bump the shoulder of the case and I ask; "How is that possible?" I ask because I find it impossible to move/bump the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

Case length? The Lee book on modern reloading list case drawing, the drawings include the case length from the datum to the case head. The drawings do not include the diameter of the datum and Lee did not include instructions on how a tool was to be used when measuring the case length from the datum to the case head.

The Wilson case gage measured the length of the case the end of the neck to the case head, it measures the length of the case from the datum to the case head, it measures the length of the case from the datum to the end of the neck; so you guys got together and decided it was a case head space gage?

This reminds me of an old fable about the elephant and 6 men that had never seen an elephant.

http://www.constitution.org/col/blind_men.htm


F. Guffey

[Reloadron]

A simple Google of Headspace Gauge and visit to Midway brings up the following: Click Here. Even L.E. Wilson now refers to their gauge as L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gauge. Well not quite as that is Midway's choice of words. L.E. Wilson refers to their gauge as a Wilson Case Gauge.

The change in terms has become popular and the general consensus has become Cartridge Headspace Gauge or Chamber Headspace Gauge and the fact that a cartridge does not have a headspace dimension seems to matter not. For those who like to make this argument over and over please do have at it. I just see it as a moot point anymore but do feel new reloaders who question it deserve an explanation which is understandable. Thus I use the marked up drawing.

Nice day so I think I'll take a bike ride.

Ron

[F. Guffey]

I think it was slamfire that said he had been using the term case headspace for 10+ years and I've been using it for about 5yrs

A simple Google of Headspace Gauge and visit to Midway brings up the following:

And a simple search of the box the Wilson case gage came in should have led the proud owner of the case gage to the instructions. I have one old set with instructions that have a printed date of 1953. What does that mean? I have to be one of the few that read the instructions because I am one of the few that did not look down my nose at the tool and refer it as a 'drop-in-gage'. Amd then there is the precision of the tool, Wilson suggested using a straight edge; I suggested using a feeler gage; and then there was that short leap from the straight edge to the flat surface; the flat surface technique is faster and less awkward but remember, I knew it was a waste of time when talking to the choir.

The Wilson case gage is also a trim length gage. That process was most difficult for most reloaders; why? because of the 'measure before and again after when using a comparator. Reloaders have a hang up on stretch and flow; If the case stretches I want to know where the stretch took place, after I determine where I determine why. If my cases increase in length from the shoulder to the case head when fired I can add the amount of increase in length to the length of the case.
And as always I use my M1917 Eddystone chamber as an example. The chamber in that rifle is long from the shoulder to the bolt face. How Much? The chamber is .016" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than a minimum length/full length sized case . Not a problem; When forming cases for that chamber I increase the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .014". What does that give me? By increasing the distance of the case from the shoulder to the case head .014" I have the magic .002" clearance.

Where did the magic .002" clearance come from?

And now back to trimming; it would be mindless for a reloader to trim the case to SAAMI length. Think about it, my chamber in my M1917 Eddystone is not SAAMI's chamber. It is my chamber.

I was the second person to use the term 'case head space gage'?

There was a member that made all types of claims, one day he claimed he invented? the term 'deck height', another member said he did a search and then refined the search and discovered the claimer was no where near the internet when the term appeared. I thought the member making the claim would require medical attention.

Now that you guys are claiming discoveries you need to determine the origin of the matching shell holder, matching as in to the brand of die. I hear old wife's? stories about using Redding shell holders with Redding dies and the same story can be found when using RCBS equipment. I have always measured the deck height of the shell holder, if the deck height of the shell holder is .125" that is all it can do.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

I said reloaders are infatuated with the term 'head space'. Adding the term head space between case and gage gage does not make the case gage a head space gage ( but it is another way to crowd the phrase head space in one more time). I have always though reloaders should measure before and again after, that would be before firing and again after firing. If the reloaders formed good habits and measured before and again after they could use the case gage as a comparator.

It is not my intent to break anyone's brain but if the reloader measured before and again after they could learn to determine where the stretch happened. Problem; reloaders have rifles that have firing pins that drive the case forward, reloaders that have firing pins that drive the case forward are out of luck; yes out of luck unless they can find help from someone in the chair or choir.

F. Guffey

[mehavey]

Adding the term head space between case and gauge gauge
does not make the case gauge a head space gauge ....

Agreed.
It makes it a case headspace gauge.

But I'll bend just this one time... and consent to 'case headspace comparator'.

[Unclenick]

…But that probably is the source of the confusion. Headspace is space in the chamber for the case head brass originally. Now it is space in the chamber for whatever the brass stopping surface it is that determines headspace in chambers for the cartridge in question. But when RCBS came out with the Precision Mic to produce a transfer measurement of headspace via the fireformed case, the confusion began. Then Stoney Point added case comparator inserts for their caliper adapter (later sold to Hornady) to let you determine headspace the same way, and soon everyone measuring their cases thought they were directly measuring headspace rather than doing it indirectly via the case serving as the transfer gauge. So now the difference is in the vernacular.

Some time back I asked folks to come up with a better term, but nothing conclusive came out of it. Case datum length was one of the suggestions. The problem with head-to-shoulder, is some cases don't headspace on the shoulder, but they do all headspace on something (shoulder, belt, mouth, rim). Maybe something like datum-head would work. I still don't like how any of them roll off the tongue.

[Metal god]

The thing I see with trying to choose a name/term is you need to get everyone to agree with that name/term . That's not how terms are agreed to . Society as a whole agrees to use them by slowly adopting them in everyday conversation . It generally takes years if not decades to take hold as case or cartridge headspace has . How ever with the internet things do tend to move quicker now .

Example , Here are some words that mean something totally different now or are used to describe something totally different then they originally did .

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2c3d91934309

Now I use a few of those words in both context and at times I may have wondered how a particular word changed but I never cried about it every time someone used it in a way I was not familiar with . Some how though "headspace" is some sort of commandment even when adding other words to it . It some how can only mean one thing even when adding a word (case) to it and that case has direct interaction with headspace .

I really think the term is ultimately going to be either case or cartridge headspace . To many people use the term and manufactures are using it as well . It's pretty much a done deal IMHO . Either poop or get off the pot !

[Reloadron]

I see things this way and have for years. When someone is talking about a cartridge or case and headspace manages it way into the conversation I know what they are talking about, I know which case measurement or dimension they are talking about just like when the term "bump the shoulder back" is used. So as long as I or anyone else knows what someone is speaking of how much does it really matter if it does not exactly coincide with the SAAMI Glossary of Terms? I am not about to stop the conversation and point out that a cartridge does not have a headspace dimension.

While Wilson does not refer to their gauge as a cartridge headspace gauge and clearly prints on the box "Cartridge Case Gauge" the people marketing and selling the gauge refer to it as a "L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gauge" followed by a caliber.


Again, I am not about to lose any sleep over the term cartridge or case headspace gauge as I know what is being implied. Cartridge or Case Headspace Gauge or Chamber Headspace Gauge? As long as we know and understand what the gauge is and how it is used then does it really matter?

Ron

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Metal God

It's pretty much a done deal IMHO.

That may be. It still appears to have evolved from misunderstanding, and it still seems intuitively silly to suggest a cartridge case wouldn't already have space for the head it's got (or for its rim, belt, shoulder, mouth or any other part of it), and wouldn't need more to accommodate itself, as headspace determines accommodation space. The brass in a cartridge case fills space, so maybe case chamberfill would be a more descriptive term. But as you suggest, unless it's coined by a widely read author, it's unlikely to catch on.

[F. Guffey]

Quote:
SAAMI does not even have a term for the distance from head to datum point...

But it very much does have a specific spec (sic ) as is often pointed out in its drawings ( Post #21 above)

Hereby ... and forevermore ... referred to as case headspace dimension.

I can understand a newbie jumping in and wanting to change everything, it is like the two members claiming one used the term before the other and therefore they want credit.

I warned reloaders years ago this was going to happen. L. Willis was not happy with me but no one understood how Google worked. I attended a class on how to manipulate the Internet. Most in attendants was not happy with me meaning most of you would have fit right in. The promoters wanted me to leave, problem; to attend everyone was to receive a prize. I made them a deal; give me my prize and I will leave, guess what? There was no prize so they had to tolerate me. No one had a clue (with one exception), to attend the evening class those that chose to participate had to fork over an additional $400.00 +/- a few.

And they wanted to know how I knew. As soon as I walked in and signed-up I knew when they did not give me my prize, For 3 hours I did my best Red Fox routine; like I would raise my hand and ask where the prizes were, I ask them when I was going to get the prize, I ask if I had to stay all day to get the prize. At then end of the morning cession they past out vouchers, all that was necessary to receive the prize was to add $15.00+ handling and then send to Salt Lake City Utah? to receive a prize valued at less than $4.00.

Hereby ... and forevermore ... referred to as case headspace dimension.

Before the internet I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. Before the Internet I sized cases to minimum length/full length sized. It was about this time I became the fan of cutting down on all that case travel; the travel of the case was determined by the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. For me it was a small step to determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. Forget fire forming, I became a form first and then fire reloader.

And then there is always an 'and then' moment.* And then in a few hours I started working on ways to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. It took no more than three hours to develop 3 different methods and techniques that did nor require a head space gage. It took me 10 minutes to improve on the head space design.

* he tied her to the rail road tracks (and then) the train (and then) along came John, SWST John.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

No Guffy. I am working on a matter transfer device to transport an ex wife into center of a brick wall. As to case gauges?

gauges: I have a Machinery's Handbook, the book has been with us from 1915, if you want to put someone on a guilt trip contact them. I also have Data Books from Starrett that go back before WW1, same thing, no where in their data books or tool catalogs do they call their gages anything but gages.

My grandmother was not an addict, she did not drink or smoke, she did dip, I can not convince the family, that is their problem. She used Garrett in the small jars with the cork plug. Point? when she sent me to the store it was very clear she used the jar with the one dimple on the bottom. And then there was this prayer no one could miss; it hung on the wall at the front door. Pray for Wisdom.

F. Guffey

[Reloadron]

F. Guffy mentions:

gauges: I have a Machinery's Handbook, the book has been with us from 1915, if you want to put someone on a guilt trip contact them. I also have Data Books from Starrett that go back before WW1, same thing, no where in their data books or tool catalogs do they call their gages anything but gages.

I am truly happy that you have Machinery's Handbook. Yes, they printed more than your copy and the nice thing about Machinery's Handbook is that it really has not changed. I still work from a 16th Edition which is circa 1959.


Yes, in my book the spelling is gages and that said:

Gage is the spelling of an obsolescent word meaning a pledge, a challenge, etc.
Gauge is the spelling to use when you measure measurement, estimate, or standard.

The reference for the above being found here. Actually while either spelling can be used and they both are used it becomes a matter of dating oneself I guess. I may want to gage the performance difference between two cartridges or I may want to read a pressure gauge.

The end result here is people are going to refer to the subject of this discussion as a cartridge headspace gauge and you can accept it or discount it and cling to the SAAMI definitions. I have presented it both ways.

Ron

[F. Guffey]

The end result here is people are going to refer to the subject of this discussion as a cartridge headspace gauge and you can accept it or discount it and cling to the SAAMI definitions. I have presented it both ways.

You have not been listing/reading, I do not have my mind made but I believe you have chosen to ignore a lot if information. In the big inning reloaders purchased the case gage and then declared it was a drop in gage. And then? They got all giggly about gages that were named 'head space gages'. Problem, the gages they thought were head space gages were comparators. Some reloaders, once they understood the datum was a round hole went to their hardware store to purchase bushings. It was about the time reloaders started with "Here is what I do". Again, there ae precision holes and their are precision holes without a radius, late last month I passed on close to 200 pounds of datum making tools, first I had to purchases a cabinet and once I get set up with the cabinet I will return for the datum making tools.

I am not tunnel blind, the Wilson case gage was designed to measure the case in many different ways, the Wilson case gage can measure the length of the case from the datum to the case head; for most reloaders that is about their limit, other reloaders with shop skills could say the Wilson case gage is a 4-in-1tool,'4-in-1 case gage.

I am the fan of knowing everything there is to know about a tool before purchasing another tool. As we know, there are reloaders that have purchases comparators thinking they were head space gages.

F. Guffey

[Reloadron]

I agree with you. There is little else that can be said on the subject. That said the fact I may not agree with a new general consensus is really here nor there. Yes, I understand what a datum is but again, it will not change anything. Yes, I understand the Wilson Case Gage (note I did say gage) but every time the subject comes up it gets beat to death leaving many that do not have a background of a mechanical engineer, draftsman, toolmaker or machinist wondering what was said and why a cartridge case does not have headspace. Like you I collect datums but unlike you I keep my datums in a glass jar right beside my glass jar of primers. I use smoked glass so sunlight won't weaken my datums or primers. Actually since I have more than one datum I guess I have data in the glass jar?

Have yourself a good day.

Ron

[F. Guffey]

I agree with you. There is little else that can be said on the subject.

I did not say that, I said there is a lot about the Wilson case gage a reloader does not understand. I do believe they have made a little progress, in the beginning the they thought it was a drop in gage.

Like you I collect datums but unlike you I keep my datums in a glass jar right beside my glass jar of primers

I doubt that, first, a reloader with datums is not fashionable, second, datums are ruff on jars.

F.Guffey

[Reloadron]

Mr Guffy, I'll tell you what. I have read countless post where you have brought up and pointed out the merits of the Wilson Case Gauge. We can even use the Wilson spelling and say gage. I agree with everything you have ever said about the gage. Rather than sing the praises of the gage why not do a small write up pointing out what we can learn from the gage, how to properly use the gage. How to use the gage in conjunction with a straight edge (like a simple pocket rule) and how the gage can be used along with for example feeler gages.

The same speech over and over again does absolutely nothing to help the new handloader unless you can tell them how to use a gage, any gage. Wilson this and Wilson that, for example:

I am not tunnel blind, the Wilson case gage was designed to measure the case in many different ways, the Wilson case gage can measure the length of the case from the datum to the case head; for most reloaders that is about their limit, other reloaders with shop skills could say the Wilson case gage is a 4-in-1tool,'4-in-1 case gage.

The idea of a forum like this, to my way of thinking, is for a more experienced and senior shooter and hand loader to mentor the new younger (and some older) hand loaders on the way up. This means presenting material using images if necessary to demonstrate how to properly do something. Rather than say the Wilson case gage was designed to measure the case in many different ways would it not be better to describe the gauge, how to use the gage, and equally important point out what the gage will not measure, for example case diameter. Seems more logical to me as far as mentoring the new to reloading people.

Ron

[disseminator]

I second that. ^^^^^^^

After all, is this a thread on spelling and grammar, or is this about how to use a case headspace gauge? Cause I got some chambers to size.

[Unclenick]

Do you want to size a chamber or a case? The case comparators will help you with the latter. If you have a known value headspace gauge and use it to calibrate the comparator, you can get the headspace value indirectly from a newly fired case that transfers it to the comparator, and this will reflect the headspace, less around and about a thousandth of an inch or so, keeping in mind there is a bit of spring-back in the brass after the firing pressure is gone. A set of headspace gauges will help you determine what the size of the chamber is now, or will let you monitor your progress with a chamber reamer, or will let you set the headspace on a Savage type action.