Original Bullet Wt. for Luger

[vba]

I've been curious. What was the original bullet weight for the Luger pistol. Was it 115 grain, 124 grain something different or both?

Tried looking up on Google but couldn't find it.

Thank you.

[T. O'Heir]

124 grain TC FMJ. According to this article.
https://www.ammoland.com/2016/07/9mm...-ammo-history/

[vba]

T. O'heir, thanks. I had no idea it might have been a truncated cone bullet.

At least, in the article, it says 124 grain and "loaded quite hot".

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by vba

Was it 115 grain, 124 grain something different or both?

Both, along with 108gr. I've read that the original load was 124gr, but the Germans changed to 115gr and later 108gr as WWII dragged on and materiel shortages became more severe.

[BOOGIE the oily]

Here's an interesting pdf about them.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page...ger-cartridges

[Jim Watson]

The heavier load tested by the US Army in 1903 was a 124 grain (8 gram) bullet a bit less than 1100 fps from the 4" barrel.
Not "quite hot". Remember, they had just changed the barrel from 7.65 with a 93 grain (6 gram) bullet at 1250 fps. Hot not needed or wanted.

They soon went to a 115 gr (7.5 gram) bullet.

[pblanc]

The original pistol designed by Georg Luger was chambered in 7.65 x 21 mm (93 grain), and that was the chambering adopted by the Swiss in 1901, the first military to use the Luger pistol.

The 9 x 19 Parabellum model came later.

[vba]

Folks, fascinating and thank you for the pdf Boogie! I didn't realize the extremes in bullet weight for 9mm.

Again, thank you.

[Bob Wright]

As a matter of interest, German production of 9mm ammunition during WW II had a lighter bullet simply because of bullet material. Lead was replaced by "sintered iron" which is lighter than the lead. These boxes are marked "mit eisen" (With iron). They can be identified by use of a magnet.

Bob Wright

[vba]

Thanks Bob.... I know more about 9mm history than ever.

[44 AMP]

I can no longer recall the source, but I do remember the data, the original 9mm Luger load was a 124gr bullet at 1050fps from a 4" barrel. Adopted with the pistol in 1904 by the German Navy, and 1908 by the German Army.

At some point before WWI, the standard load was changed from the 124gr @1050fps to a 115gr @ 1150fps. I don't know exactly when.

since then, 9mm Luger performance has been further boosted.

[BOOGIE the oily]

Folks, fascinating and thank you for the pdf Boogie!

Glad I could help.

[tipoc]

Well you can see some of that information here, as previously posted...

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page...ger-cartridges

As mentioned the first bullet weights introduced in the 9mm were a 124 gr. truncated cone bullet at 1048 fps at the muzzle.

It was this bullet weight and velocity from a 4" barrel Luger pistol that was tested by the U.S. Army and used in the Thompson-LaGarde Report of 1904.

There was no 124 gr. 9mm Luger bullet in the early years that did 1200 fps.

There was the 30 Luger (7.65 mm) which did 1420 fps from a 6" barrel. This was the original load for the Luger pistol. But the German Army thought that bullet was too light and Georg Luger stepped it up to 9mm.

Some years later in Europe a 115 gr. weight was added and you can read of the other special bullet weights used for silenced guns and for machine guns in the article above.

As I mentioned there was no round for the Luger that did 1200 fps till fairly recently. The only semi-automatic round that could do that back then was the 38 acp which was later dubbed the 38 Super and that was with a 130 gr. bullet. That round was also tested in 1904 by Thompson and LeGarde doing 1107 fps from a 6" barrel. Later versions did up to 1200 fps or there abouts.

tipoc

[BOOGIE the oily]

There was no 124 gr. 9mm Luger bullet in the early years that did 1200 fps.

Hmmm... I wouldn't be so sure about that.
Not saying it's wrong. But maybe we're not looking at the full picture.

All I read says the 124gr bullet did 1048 fps out of the 100mm (4") barrel, which is the one the German Army used (the P-08). But the P-04 (the version adopted by the German Navy in 1904) had a 150mm (6") barrel. I don't have the knowledge to be sure the 124gr bullet would get to 1200 fps out of that barrel, but it doesn't seem so farfetched to me...

[tipoc]

All I read says the 124gr bullet did 1048 fps out of the 100mm (4") barrel, which is the one the German Army used (the P-08). But the P-04 (the version adopted by the German Navy in 1904) had a 150mm (6") barrel. I don have the knowledge to be sure the 124gr bullet would get to 1200 fps out of that barrel, but it doesn't seem so farfetched to me...

You're right and I spoke too soon. I had the standard Luger barrel length of 4" in mind and the 124 gr. bullet as loaded for those guns. In my old copy of Fred Datig's book on the Luger he gives a velocity of 1240 fps with a 124 gr. bullet. He does not mention the barrel length of the gun that did that. We do know that 6, 7 and 8" barreled guns were made though. So that is certainly possible.

An older (1964) reloading catalog I have here lists the factory ammo with a 124 gr. bullet at 1120 fps and says you can get 1300 fps with that same weight bullet with 6 gr. of Unique. He doesn't mention if it's the same barrel length but I assume that's what was meant. So I was wrong to say they could not do it.

Given the number and variety of Luger loads available even from fairly early on a 124 gr. pill at about 1200 fps may have been possible. But the standard military load from a 4" barrel did do about 1048 fps.

tipoc

[Jim Watson]

I have from Ezell's Handguns of the World

Luger Ammunition Tested May 1903, Springfield Armory

7.65 93 gr bullet
3.9" barrel 5.1 gr powder 1112 fps
3.9" barrel 5.25 gr powder 1279 fps
4.7" barrel 5.1 gr powder 1165 fps
4.7" barrel 5.25 gr powder 1335 fps
6.9" barrel 5.25 gr powder 1437 fps

9mm 124 gr bullet
3.9" barrel 5.4 gr powder 1033 fps
3.9" barrel 5.9 gr powder 1096 fps
4.7" barrel 5.4 gr powder 1076 fps
4.7" barrel 5.9 gr powder 1128 fps
5.8" barrel 5.4 gr powder 1102 fps
5.8" barrel 5.8 gr powder 1171 fps

Note: For some reason, ol' Ed metricated everything in the book.
Of course DWM gave barrel lengths in mm and loads in grams, but SA sure didn't record velocity in mps.
So we have at least one conversion, like 100 mm = 3.94" usually given as 4" in USA, and .38 grams of an unspecified powder = 5.9 grains.
And sometimes two, original SA velocity reading in fps, converted and printed 334 mps = 1096 fps by conversion back.
Also note that velocity is given as for 50 feet. That was the centerpoint between the widely spaced screens necessary for decent accuracy with the electromechanical Le Boulenge chronograph of the day.

[tipoc]

I took a look at Hatcher's 1935 "Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers" just now. Hatcher says in his chapter of cartridge descriptions;

The Remington Arms Company loads the Luger cartridge with a 124 gr.
bullet to a velocity of 1210 fps measured in the 8 inch barrel model

.

He also lists a 125 gr. bullet from a 4" barrel (often 3 7/8") with a velocity of 1075 fps and 1,040 fps. That figure is more in accord with what we know and matches Ezells and others info.

We also know that the 38acp/38 Super has been considered more powerful than the 9mm from the start of both. It could do about 1200 fps from the 5" barrel of the Colt Government Model/1911 with a 130 gr. pill.

On the LeBoulenge chrono. American Rifleman had a piece on it not long ago. It was quite accurate if expensive for a lone reloader. The military, ammo manufacturers and some gunsmiths had access to them. A measurement at 25 ft (or any known distance) allowed folks to calculate the muzzle velocity out to set distances.

tipoc

[RickB]

Not specifically related, but there's a lot of internet hooey about Lugers requiring "hot loads" to run reliably, and as you can see from the ballistics above, those are not especially hot.
One of the Luger collector forums reprinted an old recoil spring spec sheet, and it lists a half-dozen different springs.
I suspect guns that need "hot" ammo to function correctly have the wrong spring.
Wolff now sells three different ratings for the Luger, but when I bought my spring kit, 15-20 years ago, they had only one.

[Jim Watson]

I recall old armory rifle velocity was given for 78 feet.
Midway between screens 150 feet apart, start screen at 3 feet.

Phil Sharpe paid something above $1500 for a Potter electronic counter chronograph in 1953. It had photoelectric screens even then.

[tipoc]

First, the 9mm Parabellum has a slightly tapered cartridge case. This is said to better ensure reliable feeding compared to the straight-cased orthodoxy of then and now. The original bullets were a full-metal-jacked truncated conical shape of 124gr weight, loaded quite hot at over 1,200fps.

https://www.ammoland.com/2016/07/9mm...#axzz4i4S0g2Hw

In the above quote the author refers to "the straight-cased orthodoxy of then and now". The 9mm is a tapered case handgun round but so is most every other "rimless" round meant for semi-automatic pistols since then. Revolver rounds are straight and the "semi-rim" rounds made around the turn of the 20th century were straight (38 acp/38 Super, 25 acp, etc.) But most everything else that I'm cognizant of is tapered to some extent. Both to aid in feeding and in extraction.

Has there been something I've missed? Is there a new "orthodoxy" favoring straight cased pistol rounds that's developed?

tipoc

[Jim Watson]

Taper on "modern" rounds is pretty faint.
9mm P tapers 0.010" over 0.500" of case wall, .40 S&W tapers 0.0009" over 0.598" of case wall.

There was a gunzine article wherein a PhD devised the 9mm Automatic, same length as 9mm P but a straight case.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/9m...9mm-cartridge/

The first cut at a 9mm for the Luger pistol was a nearly straight case with a faint bottleneck. Known as the 9mm Borchardt or Borchardt/Luger. Darn thing even had a heel bullet. Scholarly discussion and picture at:
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.or...cartridge/8412

[tipoc]

I'll go through the article on the Borchardt, the original article by Sturgess.

Millers article I've read a couple of times. His reasoning is flawed and he does not make a credible case for his argument. It's difficult to believe anyone took the article seriously.

tipoc

[BOOGIE the oily]

So I was wrong to say they could not do it.

Oh, I definitely didn't make the comment to say anybody was wrong. I just don't have the knowledge on the subject to make that kind of assessment.
My point was that we just may never know the details.
Militaries are naturally secretive. It wouldn't be such a stretch to think the bullets the DWM sent to the U.S. for testing were not the same bullets the German Navy and Army would later use for themselves, either because they made them "lighter" on purpose, or because, upon adopting the weapon, the Germans decided to use a "hotter" one.

Wikipedia cites the muzzle velocity for the 4" barrel at 1148 to 1312 fps, though I suspect that may be for the "mit eisenkern" bullets. But, on the other hand, there have been 9mm Lugers with barrels up to 200mm (7.9"), so muzzle velocities may have been even higher than the ones Jim Watson posted above.

Millers article I've read a couple of times. His reasoning is flawed and he does not make a credible case for his argument.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, reading that article I have to think it was written only for the sake of printing something, because the whole logic behind it is ridiculous.

True, tapered bullets tend to nosedive. So do straight bullets.
Nosediving is the result of the differential friction of the bullet against the next bullet in the magazine (or the magazine follower), and the lower friction of the bullet against the magazine lips, compounded by the fact that the breech face pushes the bullet off the upper lip, at an angle. Sure, tapered bullets may nosedive a fraction of a degree further than straight ones, but I doubt that'd be an issue, as long as the design of the weapon accounts for it. And I guess billions of rounds fired successfully around the world kinda prove it...

[tipoc]

From Boogie;

My point was that we just may never know the details.
Militaries are naturally secretive. It wouldn't be such a stretch to think the bullets the DWM sent to the U.S. for testing were not the same bullets the German Navy and Army would later use for themselves, either because they made them "lighter" on purpose, or because, upon adopting the weapon, the Germans decided to use a "hotter" one.

Well I tend to think we can know the details. We can and in some cases do know them already. They have basically all been published and are over 115 years old in some cases. If not all of us here know all aspects of it that's mostly because we haven't dedicated ourselves to looking up the details. But they are there. Many are printed in any number of books, some have been quoted from in this thread.

Look at it this way Luger and DWM were very interested in selling their guns and the ammo for them. In a number of cases DWM provided as well as sold both the guns and ammo to a number of armies for testing. In some cases this was before Germany had adopted the guns or ammo for use by their Navy or Army. That was the case with the U.S., Sweden and a number of other countries. It's also true that many countries have been building guns in 9mm and 9mm ammo for them and yet, till recently, no 124 gr. pills at 1200 fps from a 4" barrel.

The U.S. Army bought several thousand Lugers for testing and evaluation, before they were adopted by Germany and before the first World War. Many in 9mm. DWM had every reason to provide them good ammo and good guns. By all accounts they did so. The record of that testing is available in a number of books. The same is true of other nations.

So even in this thread we can point to a few verified accounts of the weight and velocity of the ammo from multiple sources. What we may be unclear on the a specific velocity from a specific barrel length.

Certain they did not get 1200 fps with a 124 gr. bullet from a 4" barrel in 1902 or 1917 in a way that could have been done with regularity. If they could have they would have. NATO spec today from about the same is about 1140 fps. Thing is we have no specific references of the 1200 fps from a 4" but we do have it from the longer barrels. We don't have any proof that they did get that from 4" barrels. We do have reference to it being shot from longer barrels.

If it was something that they could do regularly and safely they certainly would have advertised it. Would've sold like hotcakes.

In over a century of 9mm ammo only fairly recently have we seen 124 gr. pills that fast, and faster and 9mm+P+ is advertised and sold. Today we have better powders and better heat treating for the guns and the barrels.

tipoc

[BOOGIE the oily]

@Tipoc:Thank you for the data.

Now my question is: many people tend to bunch up all Lugers under the P-08 name, including the 150mm barrelled one, which is actually (AFAIK) a P-04. Is it possible to get 1200 fps off the 150mm (5.9 in) barrel, with a 124 gr bullet?