Actively assisting police - Page 2

billvau · May 6, 2015, 09:22 PM

I know a cop who got into a fight with a suspect. The suspect grabbed the cop's gun and as they fought over it, the cop was shot in the leg. A soldier from Fort Bragg was nearby and heard the fight. This soldier ran over and as the cop told me, "saved my butt" by helping subdue the bad guy. I realize the soldier was not armed, but I really admired the guts of this guy who helped this cop.

raimius · May 6, 2015, 10:42 PM

If I can tell with near certainty that a "good guy" is in mortal danger from a clear "bad guy" AND I think I can resolve the situation with a high probability of success (defined as "good guy" and myself being unharmed/minimally injured, and the "bad guy" being stopped), I will likely intervene.

BIG ISSUES
1. Is it clear who the parties are?
A. Can I identify a clear "good guy" or innocent party?
B. Can I identify a clear "bad guy?"
2. Does the "good guy" need help?
3. Am I in a position to provide help?
4. Can I provide help with an acceptable amount of risk, or do I need back-up?

**OldMarksman** · May 7, 2015, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Posted by raimus: If I can tell with near certainty that a "good guy" is in mortal danger from a clear "bad guy" AND I think I can resolve the situation with a high probability of success (defined as "good guy" and myself being unharmed/minimally injured, and the "bad guy" being stopped), I will likely intervene.

Well, if we agree that a "good guy", in this context, is one who would be lawfully justified in the use of force to defend himself, that should about do 'er.

That means that you have a basis for a reasonable belief that the "good guy" did not do anything at all to bring about the confrontation (or if he had, he had made clear his intention to not use force), and that the parties had not been involved in a fight ("mutual combat").

Otherwise, STEER CLEAR. Run, do not walk, for help.

In some jurisdictions, such a reasonable belief will not suffice. If it turns out that you were wrong, woe be unto you

Regarding aiding an officer in the performance of his duties, things vary among jurisdictions.

If you are in a jurisdiction in which it would be lawful to use force to assist an officer, under his direction and at his request, you had better be able to prove that you had received such a request if he is not longer around or willing ro so state.

JN01 · May 7, 2015, 04:53 PM

Quote:

BIG ISSUES
1. Is it clear who the parties are?
A. Can I identify a clear "good guy" or innocent party?
B. Can I identify a clear "bad guy?"
2. Does the "good guy" need help?
3. Am I in a position to provide help?
4. Can I provide help with an acceptable amount of risk, or do I need back-up?

Great rule of thumb.

MTGreen · May 8, 2015, 06:36 PM

I have twice actively assisted a police officer in making an arrest. Both were answers to Stop That Man. In neither case was the officer's status as officer clear. The first was at the U.S Capital Building in broad day light. The second was in a very dark alley at night in California. In the ally I did not act until I could see clearly that the officer asking for assistance was an officer. I am glad to have acted in both circumstances. The questions asked above all go through your head quickly. After that I just kept saying, "Don't get yourself killed."

Deaf Smith · May 8, 2015, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Where would you draw the line on getting involved or not?

If the police don't mind me giving my 2 cents worth, then I'd get involved.

If I saw one being assaulted or having a very hard time controlling a suspect, sure I'd chip in.

Deaf

Arizona Fusilier · May 9, 2015, 11:42 AM

Even in the clearest of situations, where you come to the aid of a police officer that requests it......the dozen guys that back him up and are responding to the scene seconds later will likely have no clue who you are......except that you are not a cop......and you have a gun.

Tread carefully, my friends.

Snyper · May 9, 2015, 08:24 PM

CCW saves cops life:

Quote:

This armed witness, still unnamed, may have been the only thing stopping the suspect from doing even more harm than he did.

http://concealednation.org/2015/05/a...er-with-baton/

Moomooboo · May 9, 2015, 09:27 PM

Not exactly ccw as much as it is armed citizen.

colbad · May 10, 2015, 12:14 AM

Some really good and refreshing answers. For those of you stating your willingness to assist in dire circumstances is comforting and demonstrates that there are still good decent people out there. However, remember a request to "stop that man" may be on a dude who just lifted a 6 pack of beer and running (just an example of very petty offense). The point is, short of life and limb your "assistance" may never come near the justification to pull a FA. However, your well intentioned "assault" on the perceived "bad guy" may get you a beating or worse causing an unintended escalation of force to the point of a shooting if you are now getting beat to death. Even potential "bad guys" get to defend themselves from attacks by strangers.

The other point to consider, is just because you don't see a lot of uniforms does not mean that the catastrophic event many are arming up for was not addressed. During many high visibility events you may be getting scanned by the cross hairs of a sniper scope without knowing. Probably several others in plain clothes ready to respond. You can see the problem here pulling out a gun.

**4V50 Gary** · May 12, 2015, 11:15 AM

Citizen pulls gun on suspect who had taken a baton from a rookie officer and was beating the rookie officer over the head with the baton. This is definitely one of those situations that unless there were other officers present, I myself would have intervened.

We know who the good guy is.
We know who the bad guy is.
We know there is no case for mistaken defense of another.
We know the good guy is getting the short end of the stick and but for intervention, would lose.

http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=...9&catId=112032

Brit · May 12, 2015, 12:41 PM

Reference the Canadian, he is right, Canadian Cops are well paid.

One incident I am aware of, happened in Brampton, a few miles outside of Toronto. A female Police Officer responding to a disturbance call at a convenience store, was attacked, the fight progressed outside, a small crowd circled the lady cop, who was being viciously beaten by a man, all she was concerned about, apparently, was loosing her duty pistol, as she was hanging on to it, with both hands, in the holster.

A car pulled up, out sprang a short Scottish immigrant, and kicked the assailant so hard in the head, it lifted him off the Cop!

I don't think said Jock has enough money in his bank account, to buy a traffic ticket in Brampton.

Assisting Police, by yours truly, just come out of the Army, year 1956, town Blackpool, north of England. Scottish people also!

A buddy and I were walking down a major street, came across an attack on a young skinny Cop. It took place in the doorway of a Taylors Shop, it was Glasgow Wakes Week, a rowdy Holiday time!

Seems like the Cop was trying to have the 4 drunks leave the doorway, just as we were passing, the Cop's helmet was knocked off. And they set into him, as it was a free fight, we joined in! It was going pretty good for us, we were not drunk!

When two big coppers, not wearing helmets! Had my face in the metal grill, arms up my back!

"No, not the two in sports coats, they were helping me" Said the young cop, with his nose bleeding.

Seems like a squad of roving cops had come across the activity's we had bought into! Piled out of a Police van, 6 or 8 of them?

The 4 combatants were battered! My knuckles were cut up, but the Police boots did more damage than our fists!

Thank goodness the young Copper spoke up!

**Frank Ettin** · June 6, 2015, 01:19 PM

The thread has been quiet for awhile, and then someone posted a bit of "cop bashing" -- which is now gone.

Let's call it a day.

May 8, 2015, 06:36 PM	#30
MTGreen Member Join Date: January 20, 2013 Posts: 36	Stop that Man I have twice actively assisted a police officer in making an arrest. Both were answers to Stop That Man. In neither case was the officer's status as officer clear. The first was at the U.S Capital Building in broad day light. The second was in a very dark alley at night in California. In the ally I did not act until I could see clearly that the officer asking for assistance was an officer. I am glad to have acted in both circumstances. The questions asked above all go through your head quickly. After that I just kept saying, "Don't get yourself killed."

May 12, 2015, 11:15 AM	#36
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,840	Citizen pulls gun on suspect who had taken a baton from a rookie officer and was beating the rookie officer over the head with the baton. This is definitely one of those situations that unless there were other officers present, I myself would have intervened. We know who the good guy is. We know who the bad guy is. We know there is no case for mistaken defense of another. We know the good guy is getting the short end of the stick and but for intervention, would lose. http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=...9&catId=112032 __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

June 6, 2015, 01:19 PM	#38
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	The thread has been quiet for awhile, and then someone posted a bit of "cop bashing" -- which is now gone. Let's call it a day. __________________ "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

May 6, 2015, 09:22 PM	#26
billvau Member Join Date: November 4, 2010 Location: nc Posts: 18	I know a cop who got into a fight with a suspect. The suspect grabbed the cop's gun and as they fought over it, the cop was shot in the leg. A soldier from Fort Bragg was nearby and heard the fight. This soldier ran over and as the cop told me, "saved my butt" by helping subdue the bad guy. I realize the soldier was not armed, but I really admired the guts of this guy who helped this cop.

May 6, 2015, 10:42 PM	#27
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	If I can tell with near certainty that a "good guy" is in mortal danger from a clear "bad guy" AND I think I can resolve the situation with a high probability of success (defined as "good guy" and myself being unharmed/minimally injured, and the "bad guy" being stopped), I will likely intervene. BIG ISSUES 1. Is it clear who the parties are? A. Can I identify a clear "good guy" or innocent party? B. Can I identify a clear "bad guy?" 2. Does the "good guy" need help? 3. Am I in a position to provide help? 4. Can I provide help with an acceptable amount of risk, or do I need back-up?

May 9, 2015, 11:42 AM	#32
Arizona Fusilier Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2000 Posts: 1,082	Even in the clearest of situations, where you come to the aid of a police officer that requests it......the dozen guys that back him up and are responding to the scene seconds later will likely have no clue who you are......except that you are not a cop......and you have a gun. Tread carefully, my friends.

May 9, 2015, 09:27 PM	#34
Moomooboo Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2014 Posts: 203	Not exactly ccw as much as it is armed citizen.

May 10, 2015, 12:14 AM	#35
colbad Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2012 Posts: 506	Some really good and refreshing answers. For those of you stating your willingness to assist in dire circumstances is comforting and demonstrates that there are still good decent people out there. However, remember a request to "stop that man" may be on a dude who just lifted a 6 pack of beer and running (just an example of very petty offense). The point is, short of life and limb your "assistance" may never come near the justification to pull a FA. However, your well intentioned "assault" on the perceived "bad guy" may get you a beating or worse causing an unintended escalation of force to the point of a shooting if you are now getting beat to death. Even potential "bad guys" get to defend themselves from attacks by strangers. The other point to consider, is just because you don't see a lot of uniforms does not mean that the catastrophic event many are arming up for was not addressed. During many high visibility events you may be getting scanned by the cross hairs of a sniper scope without knowing. Probably several others in plain clothes ready to respond. You can see the problem here pulling out a gun.

May 12, 2015, 12:41 PM	#37
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	Reference the Canadian, he is right, Canadian Cops are well paid. One incident I am aware of, happened in Brampton, a few miles outside of Toronto. A female Police Officer responding to a disturbance call at a convenience store, was attacked, the fight progressed outside, a small crowd circled the lady cop, who was being viciously beaten by a man, all she was concerned about, apparently, was loosing her duty pistol, as she was hanging on to it, with both hands, in the holster. A car pulled up, out sprang a short Scottish immigrant, and kicked the assailant so hard in the head, it lifted him off the Cop! I don't think said Jock has enough money in his bank account, to buy a traffic ticket in Brampton. Assisting Police, by yours truly, just come out of the Army, year 1956, town Blackpool, north of England. Scottish people also! A buddy and I were walking down a major street, came across an attack on a young skinny Cop. It took place in the doorway of a Taylors Shop, it was Glasgow Wakes Week, a rowdy Holiday time! Seems like the Cop was trying to have the 4 drunks leave the doorway, just as we were passing, the Cop's helmet was knocked off. And they set into him, as it was a free fight, we joined in! It was going pretty good for us, we were not drunk! When two big coppers, not wearing helmets! Had my face in the metal grill, arms up my back! "No, not the two in sports coats, they were helping me" Said the young cop, with his nose bleeding. Seems like a squad of roving cops had come across the activity's we had bought into! Piled out of a Police van, 6 or 8 of them? The 4 combatants were battered! My knuckles were cut up, but the Police boots did more damage than our fists! Thank goodness the young Copper spoke up!