28/26 Nosler?!?

[disseminator]

No, it won't.

Yes, it will.

But if you want a 28 Nosler, then just get one. Who cares what we think?

[hooligan1]

.28 Nosler will push 180-190's to 3000.
My 7 mm rem mag won't.

[reynolds357]

Yes, it will.

28 Nosler will push a 140 to 3375 at safe pressure.
What 7 Rem mag load does that???
(I am sure as some other powder companies work up data, the 28 Nosler will only get faster.)

[kilotanker22]

Since I have been pondering this... I have looked into it a bit more. Honestly the 28 nosler would be my second choice between the two. 26 nosler would be what I chose. That being said there are some cartridges that can compete with the 26 nosler, but do it more efficiently in my opinion.

For example. Take the 26 Nosler vs the 270 WSM... Using just load data from Nosler's website. 140 grain Accubond bullets. Obviously these two cartridge's load data uses powders with different burn rates for the best listed velocities.

Basically how it breaks down is this.

26 nosler test barrel 26 inches.
Bullet BC: .509
Highest load velocity range 3,111-3,251 FPS
Charge weight: 84-88 grains

270 wsm test barrel 24 inches.
Bullet BC: .496
Highest load velocity range 3,092-3,237
Charge weight: 65-70 grains.

So what I take away from this discussion is this.....

A 270 WSM rifle will perform very close to what the 26 nosler rifle will perform. Velocities are very similar, and bullet BC are similar. However the 270 WSM offers some very compelling advantages.
1: Short action
2: 20-25% less powder weight
3: Less blast
4: Less recoil.
5: More brass and ammunition availability.

So I think Maybe my better option for a rifle to play around with might be to rebarrel a savage WSM action to 270 WSM. 26 inch barrel. Save money on brass and powder.

[reynolds357]

But if you want a 28 Nosler, then just get one. Who cares what we think?

I have no need for one. I have 3 7Rem mags, 2 7WSM, a 284, a 284 AI, 2 7 STWs, a 7 WBY, and 2 7 RUMs. Having said that, I am sure I will eventually build one.

[std7mag]

Kilotanker,
Would this be the same Nosler data that suggests you can get a 140gr bullet out of a 280 Rem at over 3,100 fps?

Seems interesting seeing as everyone elses data can only push them 2,800-2,900 fps.
My own chrono backs the other loading manuals also.

I still don't know why i bought the second Nosler manual (8). Their data seems errr, wildly optimistic shall we say.

Untill others come onboard and release data for those 2 cartridges i think i would stick with Hodgdon's load data.

[ndking1126]

Kilotanker, I like your logic with the 270 WSM. That's the only magnum I am continuously tempted to get. As I run the numbers on recoil calculators, it'll have the same or slightly less recoil than a 30-06 with much better ballistics.

If my 30-06 didn't have so much sentimental value, I'm quite sure I'd already have sold it to fund a 270 WSM.

Nothing wrong with the 26 or 28 Nosler, though, and you clearly have done your homework. If the trade offs are worth it to you, have at it!

[kilotanker22]

Originally Posted by std7mag

Kilotanker,
Would this be the same Nosler data that suggests you can get a 140gr bullet out of a 280 Rem at over 3,100 fps?

Seems interesting seeing as everyone elses data can only push them 2,800-2,900 fps.
My own chrono backs the other loading manuals also.

I still don't know why i bought the second Nosler manual (8). Their data seems errr, wildly optimistic shall we say.

Untill others come onboard and release data for those 2 cartridges i think i would stick with Hodgdon's load data.

even Hodgdon data suggests that between 26 nosler and 270 wsm with 140 grain pills i can attain velocities within 50 FPS. Although, Nosler's starting load data is about the max of Hodgdons data.... With H50BMG The max loads between hodgon and Nosler is a 10 grain Difference for the 26 nosler.

[disseminator]

28 Nosler will push a 140 to 3375 at safe pressure.
What 7 Rem mag load does that???

The 7mmRM won't get that fast, true. But, it will exceed 3200 with that bullet and what real difference is that? What will that bullet do at 3375 that it wont at 3200?

It's on that basis that I say the 7mmRM is good enough. There is no realistic difference IMO.

Kilotanker,
Would this be the same Nosler data that suggests you can get a 140gr bullet out of a 280 Rem at over 3,100 fps?

Seems interesting seeing as everyone elses data can only push them 2,800-2,900 fps.
My own chrono backs the other loading manuals also.

FWIW, I am easily running over 2900 FPS with a 160 grain bullet in my Model 70 280 Remington with room to grow so a 140 at 3100 isn't so far fetched.

[old roper]

Looking at Nosler data for 28 Nosler they have 3 loads over 3500fps with 140gr
used 26" barrel vs 24" that Hodgdon used @ 3375fps. Hodgdon top for 7mag with 140gr is 3217fps and that's only load above 3200fps

I shot 7mag for # of years, with 145gr @ 3173fps,160gr 2991fps. I'm sure today I would do little better.

Myself I don't know anyone that want to shoot 24" barrel 28 Nosler.

[reynolds357]

The 7mmRM won't get that fast, true. But, it will exceed 3200 with that bullet and what real difference is that? What will that bullet do at 3375 that it wont at 3200?

It's on that basis that I say the 7mmRM is good enough. There is no realistic difference IMO.

The 28 Nosler is flatter. What does "no realistic difference" truly mean? We will say "there is no realistic difference between a:" 28 Nosler and a 7 STW, between a 7 STW and a 7 Rem Mag, between a 7 Rem Mag and a 7 WSM, between a 7 WSM and a 7RSAUM, between a 7 RSAUM and a 280AI, between a 280 AI and a 280 Rem, between a 280 Rem and a 7-08, a 7-08 and a SAAMI spec 7x57, between a 7x57 and a 7x30 Waters.
Following that line of logic, there is "no realistic difference" between a 28 Nosler and a 7-30 Waters.

[FrankenMauser]

Shhhh. Simmer down now, guys.

Two view points. Both valid:
1. I don't want it. I don't care. It's not different enough to be worth it.**
2. I love SPEEEEEEEED. Give me the best, the fastest, the newest! Even just another 3 fps is worth it!
(3. Indifference.**)


Now, you guys go put on the 'get along' shirt. When you've all agreed to apologize and live together, you can hug and come back out to play.


**(For the record, I'm somewhere between 'not different enough' and 'indifferent' on this one.)

[Wyosmith]

Weatherby, Lazzeroni, Saturn-ICL, STWs, and now Nosler.............Not to mention all the wildcats I have made in the last 50 years that are equal to of faster then those being pitched to you today.

All are just big powder bottles under standard bore sizes. All are duping everyone they can to believe that somehow going faster is "better". Speed impresses many American because of the cleverness of the advertising industry. But speed comes at a price. Bore life, recoil, noise level and cost of ammo, all of which work against you in one way of another. Ammo cost and bore life being the most vital.

Shooting a lot with a particular rifle makes for gains is skill, but re-barreling it all the time takes a lot of money, and so dose very expensive ammo. A lot of money spent is important to most shooters because we all have a set amount we can spend to gain our skills and I have seen that firing many thousands of rounds from a 7-08 or a 308 gains a shooter a LOT more skill then firing a few dozen or hundred from a stupendous magnum.

Over-bore magnums are made to sell to those that do not fire several thousand rounds from one rifle every year,

or to those that have unlimited money.

But for killing game I have not seen any real advantage of any of them over what they were trying to replace. Yes they can shoot flatter and yes they can have less flight time. And if the bullet hit at too high a velocity they do not kill better, but in fact don't kill as well, because they break up and don't penetrate as well or veer off course in the game as often as not.

Sure, they can and often do kill well, but anyone that says they kill better has not killed a lot of game with a 280, a 270 a 30-06 a 308 or any of the "standards". Faster bullets don't really have much more discernible effect on a bullet's killing power once it's going fast enough to fully expand. It can however work against you from time to time.

"Flatter and less flight time.... those 2 features DO NOT make the shooter a better shot. Accuracy is about what size target you can hit every time, not some times, and the difference between (for example) a 280 Rem and a 28 Nosler when you look at the distance you can place 5 out of 5 on a 6" target is .....ZERO.

You see, if you have an accurate rifle and you can hold it still, you can make hits. Even if you have to hold your cross hair 8" higher. If you can't hold it still you miss, even if you miss with a faster bullet.

I don't care if a fellow hunter wants one or uses one. I make them on demand fairly often. It's good for business. I have been gunsmithing since 1968 and I personally have made many such wildcats and high volume magnums and I have used them for decades.
They really are just a sales pitch. Not an improvement.


I do not say they are not good. They work fine.

I do say they are not "better."

[reynolds357]

Wyosmith, I don't plink with the "boomers. I work up loads for them, work up dope sheets with them, then shoot game with them. I practice with my old sniper rifle and my 1k yd bench guns. I must admit, a 308 win is hitting pretty dang soft on deer at 800 yards. A 7 RUM is still putting lightning strikes on them. Ethics of long range hunting aside, that is what the 28 Nos is designed for.

[disseminator]

If I seemed argumentative, I apologize. You guys are cool with me and I enjoy the back and forth. No arguing here.

Wyosmith said what I meant to say but much better than I did.

reynolds357, I agree a 308 is too little at that range. But what about the 300 Win Mag vs 30 Nosler? Yes the nosler has a little more, but you have to adjust for drop at that range and the slight difference doesn't make enough of a difference FOR ME to justify a new caliber and dies and such.

Getting back to the 28 vs 7mmRM, they are "close enough" IMO. I would not use my 280 at 700 yards. Like the 308, it's not enough. The 28 will certainly shoot "flatter" at longer point blank range and if that is how you use it then yes it's better. But your not gonna use PBR at 700+ yards.

You obviously have a good bit of experience with the 7mm bore. It's my favorite as well.

Have fun.

[Wyosmith]

"a 308 win is hitting pretty dang soft on deer at 800 yards. A 7 RUM is still putting lightning strikes on them."

I am not doubting what you wrote, but I am guessing the cartridge case has a lot less to do with it then you may think.

Lets look at some facts here.

If your 7MM RUM is firing a top end load at max velocity of about 3300 FPS with a bullet having a BC of about .6 which would be a bullet in the upper 160 grain or low 170 grain range, your impact velocity at 800 yards is going to be about 1900-2000 FPS. If your bullet doesn't blow up and it expands to 2X it's diameter (most don't at that range, but it's possible) you have a "working end" of about 56 caliber making the bullet hole in the deer, and the velocity of a 30-30 at brush-hunting range)

If we look as a good high end 308 Winchester load with a 165 grain hunting bullet with a good BC (about .450) we have a muzzle velocity of about 2650 and an impact velocity of 1400 -1450 FPS at 800 yards.

Again if the bullet preformed perfectly and it doubles it's diameter (again, most don't at that range, but it's possible) making a .60 cal "working end" to make the bullet wound in the deer. Velocity at 800 is about like a 30-30 at 150 yards.

Both bullets start at about the same weight.

Is the RUM going to be WAY better? If it is, why?

It's about the same weight (within 7 grains) and it's 450-500 FPS faster on impact. Clearly it has more energy then the 308 round, but it may or may not make as large a wound in diameter. If both get to the off side of the deer against it's hide, or even exit, is that 450 FPS going to be "lightning' compared to the 308?

Is the cavitation of the 308 hole going to be "way" less? And is the 308 going to be "pretty dang soft"?

I have killed a number of deer with a 30-30 firing 170 grain bullets and all were under 150 yards. A 30-30 with a 170 gr chronographs out of a 20" barrel around 2050 FPS with 170s. At say 125yds, that bullet is going about 1600 FPS, yet it drops deer VERY well.

If that is what you have seen, and if you have seen enough of each at 800 yards to have an established pattern to compare (say 10 deer each at that range with each cartridge) I am guessing the bigger reason you are seeing "lightning' from the 7RUM is bullet selection, not power and speed at the muzzle (or at the target.)

I no longer shoot game past 500 meters. I have done it quite a few times when I was younger but I guess I grew out of it.

But the round I have made more instant kills with then all others at ranges over 500 meters (and in about 50 years of doing it) was and is the 270 Winchester. I shot mostly 150 grain Partitions. I have dropped a lot of deer in their tracks, even at long range, and the fact is that none of my long range kills went more then about 10 yards.

My 270 is WAY slower then your 7 RUM. ("Way" being about 300 FPS or a slight bit more) Your rifle can do 3300 FPS with a 150 or 154 and my 270 chronograph 2980 with 150 grain bullets.

And to these preceding facts I have to reconcile the added fact that I made a fair number of kills at longer ranges with my 300 magnums and 7MM Mags, as well as four I remember with a 375H&H.

All of which were more powerful then my 270s.

None of which were generally as dramatic at killing deer at long range.

So that brings me back to my 1st point.
Bullet design and construction.

If your 7 RUM is far faster and more dramatic in killing deer at 800 yards I am going to bet it's not because of the large powder capacity as much as it is the bullets.

Does any of that ring true with you?
If so, please post.
If not, please fill in thew blanks for me (and the others too)

My focus here is not to confront but to exchange information and facts and help educate others and myself if I can.

[reynolds357]

Bullet design may play a role, but I think its more velocity and energy. The .308 at 800 yards has been relegated to near handgun velocities while the RUM is still holding the velocity of a low energy rifle. The 168 berger is still ticking along at 2100 at 800 yds. 2100 is plenty fast enough to make the Berger make a mess of some meat.

I also shoot 168 Bergers in the .308 Win.

I don't drag the RUM out except for the bean field. A .257 Roy and a 7 WSM are my intermediate range rifles. The .308 and .243 Win usually carry the short to intermediate range load.

[ligonierbill]

Interesting discussion, and it didn't go off the rails. I say to the OP, it's just money. If you want to give Nosler's new wonder a try, go for it. And report back!

Maybe you'll find it too loud. Maybe it will eat the barrel in a hundred rounds. Maybe it will be your favorite rifle.

If we didn't have some new stuff come out on occasion, we would be debating .270 vs 30-06 forever.

[reynolds357]

Rifles are tools. Though most jobs can be performed with both a 1/2 drive air impact and a 1" drive air impact; each is definitely best suited to different things.

[ndking1126]

Wyosmith and reynolds357,

Very interesting discussion. I don't normally chime in, but would like to given the civility of your conversation.

Realistically, it requires both the powder capacity and the bullet construction to kill an animal at any given distance. It seems like both are right about their opinion, but not right in discounting the other.

Wyosmith in your 800 yard example, the 308 traveling at 1450 fps likely won't expand at 800 yards upon impact, if nothing else, because its under the 1800 fps minimum (which is reasonably standard among published figures for hunting bullets). I would argue that in this instance, the 7mm will be that much better. It can get the bullet on target with enough speed to do its job as designed, giving the hunter additional range and capabilities he/she didn't have with a 308. Both cartridges are sufficient for 500y/m or less in the hands of a skilled marksman. In this situation, there would not be any reason to call the 7mm a lot better.

Reynolds357, the bullet design is more and more important as you get to the outer limits of the rifle/caliber being shot. At 100 yards, about any bullet will kill a deer shot by any caliber .223 or larger. But as velocities slow down and the bullet runs out of energy, the construction of the bullet (and of course shot placement) becomes more and more important. As I've read in my places, over the years the "premium" bullets have allowed hunters to shoot at animals with a smaller caliber or at longer distances with the same caliber. I'm still reasonably young and have no where near the amount of hunting experience I wish I had, so I can't speak from personal experience on this one.

Happy shooting!

[Wyosmith]

ndking1126 is correct (mostly). 1400 to 1500 is lower then the velocity most hunting bullets will expand. But not all.

I have never cared for the "long range" bullets as compared to the Nosler Partitions for the reason that by far most of my game is killed at 300 yards and less. The long range bullet that opens up well down to 1200 FPS often loose 70% of their weight at impacts of over 2500 FPS. So they work super well in 10% of the cases and in 90% of the cases they loose more weight then I like because in 90% of the cases I shoot game at 300 and less. 75% is under 200 yards.

With all that said, there are a few bullets out there that will expand down below 1400 FPS and still not break up at impacts over 2500 and up to about 2900.
#1 is the old Nosler Partition. To me it's still the "gold standard". There are some bonded bullets that may become it's equal, but I have not seen enough of them used at 600 yards and farther to know for sure. The Accu-Bonds and the Inner Bonds may be the full equal of the Partitions, but I can't swear to that yet.

Far too many shooters are drinking the cool-aid and swallowing the sales pitch that BC is "God". They believe that the slick long high BC bullets are "more accurate"
That is simply not true. They do shot a bit flatter, but that has nothing to do with group size at long range.
I stopped using boat tail High BC bullets long ago for killing game because I got BETTER FASTER KILLS with the flat base Partitions and not just now and then. In most cases. In NO case have I seen a long slick Boat tail outperform a Partition in killing game. NONE!

My experience is over 50 years long and I have killed more then I can count, and over that, I have seen probably 3X to 4X more killed by clients over those same years. So when I am debating this issue with 19 out of 20 hunters they are stating theory they believe in and base their assumption on maybe 10-15 kills. I base mine hundreds and hundreds of kills as a hunter, a gunsmith and a guide in 7 states and 6 countries and what I say is FACT! Not theory.

This DOES NOT MEAN I know ALL the facts. No one does! There may be something new out there that I have no direct knowledge of. In fact I am sure there is.
But when I tell hunters what I know, it's truly knowledge. Not theory.

I do not have 100% of the knowledge, so I am always asking hunters about the details, (just as I did in the post above.) I still go out with new bullets and try them now and then just so I can learn more. I killed my last bull elk with 8MM SST bullets so I could KNOW if they were what I will call "elk bullets" (they are not)

So far I have not seen any preponderance of information to change my mind and at 63 years old I do not think I am going to live long enough to see it.

One thing I use as a measuring stick for ALL big game bullets is the exit wound. If your bullet is not giving you exits in at least 90% of the kills I am convinced you can do better. Many times you can do a LOT better.

BC is about how a bullet flies. Bullet construction is about how a bullet acts when it quits flying.

Theory be damned, if your rifle and your load are giving you exits at every angle through your game, all the numbers and tripe written in gun-rag pages is irrelevant.

The goal of any hunting bullet is to kill game. The best way to kill game is to have as deep a hole as you can get which is 100%. Then to have that hole be at least large enough in diameter to cause the blood pressure to drop to zero within about 3-4 seconds. That's it. That's all that really matters. You can make the hole with a drill, or a rock shot off a catapult and it makes no difference. It's the hole that kills.

In hole size there are really only 2 factors, Diameter and Length. Clear through is as deep as it gets. Diameter is adjustable by construction and impact velocity as well as deceleration velocity. The 3rd one here is often overlooks and misunderstood. But if you look, you'll see how most bullet wounds are "flame shaped" As soon as the bullet enters, or within the first few inches the hole is at it's largest diameter. The wound will be like a ball or an oblong balloon if the deceleration is very quick, and if it's slower the hole will be more like a "flame" getting longer as it narrows.

Huge in diameter and short makes for a lot of gore, but those are the ones that fail to bring home the game the most.

The reason is that it often leaves enough of the vitasl working to allow the blood pressure to stay in the range needed for the animal to continue on for a while. A 2" hole tapering to 1" that goes clear through will nearly always give you a down deer or elk within 3-4 seconds and in the cases it doesn't it leaves you a VERY good blood trail.

The 6" diameter explosion in the 1st lung of the deer or elk may give you a very impressive looking gut pile, but it also can (and sometimes does) leave one good lung working for a while. Up to several minutes.

Deer are not all that tough, but I can tell you form MANY years of sometime bitter experience how far an elk can run with one lung. It's so impressive that most would not believe it. For my own use, I want exits with my bullets.

[reynolds357]

Wyosmith and reynolds357,

Very interesting discussion. I don't normally chime in, but would like to given the civility of your conversation.

Realistically, it requires both the powder capacity and the bullet construction to kill an animal at any given distance. It seems like both are right about their opinion, but not right in discounting the other.

Wyosmith in your 800 yard example, the 308 traveling at 1450 fps likely won't expand at 800 yards upon impact, if nothing else, because its under the 1800 fps minimum (which is reasonably standard among published figures for hunting bullets). I would argue that in this instance, the 7mm will be that much better. It can get the bullet on target with enough speed to do its job as designed, giving the hunter additional range and capabilities he/she didn't have with a 308. Both cartridges are sufficient for 500y/m or less in the hands of a skilled marksman. In this situation, there would not be any reason to call the 7mm a lot better.

Reynolds357, the bullet design is more and more important as you get to the outer limits of the rifle/caliber being shot. At 100 yards, about any bullet will kill a deer shot by any caliber .223 or larger. But as velocities slow down and the bullet runs out of energy, the construction of the bullet (and of course shot placement) becomes more and more important. As I've read in my places, over the years the "premium" bullets have allowed hunters to shoot at animals with a smaller caliber or at longer distances with the same caliber. I'm still reasonably young and have no where near the amount of hunting experience I wish I had, so I can't speak from personal experience on this one.

I agree. I definitely see both sides of the "magnum or not" debate. On one extreme side of the debate you have people that believe a "magnum" is required to kill Bambi at 100 yards. They seem to believe magnums kill "deader" than non magnums. On the extreme other end of the spectrum you have the shoot an elephant in exactly the right place with a .223 and it will die. I fall in the middle. I don't believe in a "do everything" rifle. I am not going to brush hunt with the 7 RUM and I am not going out on the bean field with a .30-30. If I were forced to use only one rifle, It would be a 300 win mag.

[kilotanker22]

For the record.... This idea is not an "I need" proposal. It is more of a "That's pretty cool" kind of Idea....

I have killed deer with many cartridges. Mostly smaller cartridges, but a few with a .300 win mag, .300 RUM. A couple with a .308 win and .270 win. A 32 win special, A .222, Even a .22 LR ( when I was a younger man.) But that does go to show that even a .22 LR will take down big game animals with proper shot placement.

Anywho, In all reality this gun would probably be something that I tinkered with for awhile and sold. Like I said. It is a fun gun, not an "I need" Type situation.

All but maybe 5-6 of my big game animal shots have been taken inside 100 yards.

Wyosmith; Nearly every bullet I have ever shot at a critter has given me entry and exit wounds. I also Archery Hunt so I too appreciate a wound channel that bleeds from both sides...

I have very much enjoyed this thread. Although there is a vast difference in "Philosophy of Use" From one forum member to another. It's all in good faith. And I believe that difference in opinion is what really breeds Innovation. And outside the box thinking in General.... The conversation is very much appreciated.

[Red Devil]

Originally Posted by kilotanker22

For the record.... This idea is not an "I need" proposal. It is more of a "That's pretty cool" kind of Idea....

I have killed deer with many cartridges. Mostly smaller cartridges, but a few with a .300 win mag, .300 RUM. A couple with a .308 win and .270 win. A 32 win special, A .222, Even a .22 LR ( when I was a younger man.) But that does go to show that even a .22 LR will take down big game animals with proper shot placement.

Anywho, In all reality this gun would probably be something that I tinkered with for awhile and sold. Like I said. It is a fun gun, not an "I need" Type situation.

All but maybe 5-6 of my big game animal shots have been taken inside 100 yards.

Wyosmith; Nearly every bullet I have ever shot at a critter has given me entry and exit wounds. I also Archery Hunt so I too appreciate a wound channel that bleeds from both sides...

I have very much enjoyed this thread. Although there is a vast difference in "Philosophy of Use" From one forum member to another. It's all in good faith. And I believe that difference in opinion is what really breeds Innovation. And outside the box thinking in General.... The conversation is very much appreciated.

Yep.

+/- the fireworks show, the game you kill w/ a good ole .270 Win will taste the same.




Red

[GeauxTide]

I can't comment on the 26/28 Nosler. But, if you are looking for a great 7mm cartridge the 28 doesn't offer enough over the tried and true 7mmRM to make it worth the hassle finding or making brass and the barrel issues as you stated.
I know it's not "new" but the 7 Rem Mag is about the best 7mm cartridge out there all things considered

My thoughts, exactly. Have reloaded this cartridge since the 70s in multiple rifles and have always gotten 3000fps with 154 Interbonds and 160 Noslers.