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Old December 16, 2010, 12:25 PM   #51
silvercorvette
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Before I retired back in 1998, our last few training sessions included the relatively recent "findings" that it is possible for a knife wielding adversary to close the twenty feet or so distance between you and him in two seconds or less. The point being made was that if a person was armed "only" with a blade but was threatening to kill you with it at a distance of twenty feet or less, you would be justified in shooting him.

I don't mean to put words in your mouth but I'm thinking this is what was meant by the "study" you referenced. If you think about it, you'd have to be shooting a matchlock pistol before someone could run the twenty feet or so and snatch your gun from you before you could fire it. Either that or you'd have to be a pacifist!
Yep that is what I was thinking of but old timers is setting in so I had to take some guesses on distance
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Old December 16, 2010, 12:41 PM   #52
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Yep that is what I was thinking of but old timers is setting in so I had to take some guesses on distance
Actually, it wasn't the exact distance I was taking any exception to; it was the reason the distance, coupled with the time one might need to respond, that was at issue. In other words, it was how long it would take in terms of time elapsed for an assailant to stick you with his knife at a prescribed distance; not how long it would take for someone to snatch your gun away from you at the twenty or so feet in distance he was situated from you.
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Old December 16, 2010, 12:45 PM   #53
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If I have to use my gun in self defence I hope the BG never sees anything but a flash, then the floor or sky or nothing at all. I'd prefer he never see, which of these I go to for self preservation!

I'm thinking negate not intimidate!
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Old December 16, 2010, 03:47 PM   #54
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Actually, it wasn't the exact distance I was taking any exception to; it was the reason the distance, coupled with the time one might need to respond, that was at issue. In other words, it was how long it would take in terms of time elapsed for an assailant to stick you with his knife at a prescribed distance; not how long it would take for someone to snatch your gun away from you at the twenty or so feet in distance he was situated from you.
I understand, I just left some stuff out to save on typing, but now I spent more time typing the first time I probably would spent less total time with explaining.

So after you mentioned the knife part it jogged my memory about how quickly someone could close the distance and attack you.

That pretty much is the reason or one of the reasons why pulling out a gun and not shooting could lead to a bad outcome.

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Being ABLE to take someones life is no longer the issue. WANTING to is. I don't WANT to. And if you do WANT to, then you shouldn't be carrying.
I have been carrying since I became a cop in 1970 (retired in 1990 and still carry) and have never wanted to use my gun to kill someone, pulls a knife or weapon on me I am going to stop the threat without discussion. In all these years I only came close one, when an intruder broke into my house.

He was living in my house for a few days, and when I returned to
NY from TX I caught him. I was unarmed because I flew home on a plane. I was able to get my shotgun out of the safe.

As I swung the gun in his direction I said don't move or I'll blow your (expletive deleted by the poster) head off. He was out of sight before I got the all the words out but if he took one step forward there is no doubt I would have shot
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Old December 16, 2010, 04:50 PM   #55
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That pretty much is the reason or one of the reasons why pulling out a gun and not shooting could lead to a bad outcome.
Amen to that. If you need to pull a gun on someone, you probably need to shoot him.
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Old December 16, 2010, 09:10 PM   #56
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Probably, but not always. It really is amazing how much a barrel to the face changes someones demeanor. The more time I spend out of court, the better.
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Old December 16, 2010, 10:33 PM   #57
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I know ai am late but just have to say the width and overall size of the little 380 is hard to overcome
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Old December 17, 2010, 01:19 AM   #58
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I teach conceal and carry classes and what I am about to say will **** some people off. For that I am sorry.

First. A .380 is not a get off me gun. It is just as deadly, especially at close range, as any other caliber. I carry a .380 all the time.

Second. Friends don't let friends buy Bersas. Real friends don't let friends buy hi points. Instead of buying a new Bersa, buy a used Walther or a new LCP or Bodyguard if you want a .380.

Third. There is no such thing as intimidation in self defense. The moment your pistol leaves your holster your life will change. It may change forever. Intimidation is good for TV, but if your gun clears for self defense is should be used. Intimidation works for the police...they have authority and are recognized as being trained for combat situations. If you are in a defensive situation you are there because your assailant conceived you as non-threatening. Your weapon is a last ditch effort to preserve your safety.
If you have the option to run away, I would advise you do that first unless you are a witness to a violent crime, then it is your duty (choice actually) to step in and assist. Again, if you step in and assist you need to determine if the risks and act appropriately.

Fourth. Consider a laser, but don't make it the determining factor. I like a Crimson Trace laser because they come on when you grab the grip. They are second nature. However, in a home protection scenario, the laser will give you a good indication of where your bullet will hit in the dark so then any laser will do. I like lasers better than night sights simply because they are easier to use. People will tell you that you have to worry about batteries, and that is true, but if you are properly maintaining and training with your weapon you will constantly check your batteries.

Fifth. Where you carry on your person and the type of holster is as important as the weapon itself. You should practice with all of it. Shooting well in practice but fumbling with a holster is a deadly combination for you. Learn to use the holster as well as you use your weapon.

I can go on and on, but this isn't a classroom. Sorry for the long post.
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Old December 17, 2010, 09:20 AM   #59
xMINORxTHREATx
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Ironman, better to have a long, informative post than a short one with no use to it.

I was thinking about the holster situation, and as I stated, I am more than likely just carrying this in the summer, as I have a full size I can conceal in the winter. But I don't like carrying in a pocket, so I was going to check into the ClipDraw.

Any body ever used one?


Also, good point about how the attack views you vs a cop. Thats what I have been thinking this whole time. I've seen first hand how someone in uniform can point a weapon at someone and they immediately reconsider. But never really made the connection with the person being in a recognized uniform, be it ACU's or LEO get up.


Anyways, going back to the .380 vs .38

With the .380 I can use the clip draw, and therefore conceal it inside the waistband with any outfit, but I don't think that would work as well with the .38, so I would need a traditional holster... Hmm...
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Old December 17, 2010, 10:22 AM   #60
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If you have the option to run away, I would advise you do that first
I agree with almost everything, but I am too old and slow to run. There are some days I have trouble walking
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Old December 17, 2010, 10:40 AM   #61
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I teach conceal and carry classes and what I am about to say will **** some people off. For that I am sorry.

First. A .380 is not a get off me gun. It is just as deadly, especially at close range, as any other caliber. I carry a .380 all the time.

Second. Friends don't let friends buy Bersas. Real friends don't let friends buy hi points. Instead of buying a new Bersa, buy a used Walther or a new LCP or Bodyguard if you want a .380.

Third. There is no such thing as intimidation in self defense. The moment your pistol leaves your holster your life will change. It may change forever. Intimidation is good for TV, but if your gun clears for self defense is should be used. Intimidation works for the police...they have authority and are recognized as being trained for combat situations. If you are in a defensive situation you are there because your assailant conceived you as non-threatening. Your weapon is a last ditch effort to preserve your safety.
If you have the option to run away, I would advise you do that first unless you are a witness to a violent crime, then it is your duty (choice actually) to step in and assist. Again, if you step in and assist you need to determine if the risks and act appropriately.

Fourth. Consider a laser, but don't make it the determining factor. I like a Crimson Trace laser because they come on when you grab the grip. They are second nature. However, in a home protection scenario, the laser will give you a good indication of where your bullet will hit in the dark so then any laser will do. I like lasers better than night sights simply because they are easier to use. People will tell you that you have to worry about batteries, and that is true, but if you are properly maintaining and training with your weapon you will constantly check your batteries.

Fifth. Where you carry on your person and the type of holster is as important as the weapon itself. You should practice with all of it. Shooting well in practice but fumbling with a holster is a deadly combination for you. Learn to use the holster as well as you use your weapon.

I can go on and on, but this isn't a classroom. Sorry for the long post.

Iron man,

With all due respect, I have to disagree on several points. I also teach concealed carry classes, after having spent 12 years in LE.

A .380 IS a get off me gun. While any gun of any caliber can kill with the correct shot placement, the .380 is known for being a marginal attack terminator. Its the gun that you use to pump 2 into the bad guys chest, so that you can stand up, get on your feet, and find a brick to whack him with. If someone is a larger build, or wearing a heavy coat, or is all cracked out on the "drug of the week", the .380 is more than likely just going to **** him off unless you unload your magazine into his eye socket.

Now, I have had students who have their hearts set on a .380, for various reasons. When they ask me for a good brand name, the Bersa is one of the first that I suggest. Bersa's are the hidden gems in the firearms world. Well made, decent price, etc. Those who I have suggested the Bersa to have fallen in love with the gun.

I must also respectfully disagree with your laser suggestion. Lasers were designed for training and absolutely do not belong on a defensive handgun. While its all tacticool to see that red light on the bad guys chest, there are too many negatives associated with the use of lasers for them to be tactically advantageous. Front sight point of focus is all one needs, and in most gun fights at close range, you won't even use your sights. The only red flashing lights I want to see are the ones on the ambulance taking the bad guy away.
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Old December 17, 2010, 11:06 AM   #62
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We are allowed to disagree. While you consider the .380 to not be a defensive handgun I need to point out that it was an effective caliber for the military around the world for many years. But then so was the .25 and the .32. Heck, I've been reading a lot lately about the FN Five-seveN and several people don't consider it powerful enough for defense, yet I am getting one. These differences in opinions are the same reason we may differ on chocolate or vanilla ice cream as our favorite flavors.

Bersa's shoot. They are large for a .380 (I really don't like anything larger they make), somewhat heavy, and I don't care for the finishing of the internal parts. Every gun dealer I know, and I know a lot, only refers a customer to a Bersa as a low budget gun. I have broken them down and don't care for them. At least we agree on the Hi-Point!

My wife and I go to dinner often. One of our favorite restaurants is in a dark, and somewhat rough, neighborhood. At night I carry my hammerless J frame with Crimson Trace grips because I know I will not be able to see the front sight in the dark and I practice religiously with this weapon just for night defense. My point is a tool is only as good as the practice that goes with it.
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Old December 17, 2010, 11:12 AM   #63
Iron Man
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I don't have a clip on the side of my Ruger LCP for in the waistband use, but I do have another J Frame airweight that has plastic grips made for that. A retired police officer gave the grips to me, so I don't know where to buy them, but the right grip has a plastic tab that slides over the outside of the waist band. You still have the choice of either a .380 or .38 for inside the waistband carry. I would recommend hammerless if a revolver. In a high stress situation you won't notice the extra effort needed for the trigger pull and it prevents snagging on your pants.
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Old December 17, 2010, 11:15 AM   #64
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We are allowed to disagree. While you consider the .380 to not be a defensive handgun I need to point out that it was an effective caliber for the military around the world for many years. But then so was the .25 and the .32. Heck, I've been reading a lot lately about the FN Five-seveN and several people don't consider it powerful enough for defense, yet I am getting one. These differences in opinions are the same reason we may differ on chocolate or vanilla ice cream as our favorite flavors.

Bersa's shoot. They are large for a .380 (I really don't like anything larger they make), somewhat heavy, and I don't care for the finishing of the internal parts. Every gun dealer I know, and I know a lot, only refers a customer to a Bersa as a low budget gun. I have broken them down and don't care for them. At least we agree on the Hi-Point!

My wife and I go to dinner often. One of our favorite restaurants is in a dark, and somewhat rough, neighborhood. At night I carry my hammerless J frame with Crimson Trace grips because I know I will not be able to see the front sight in the dark and I practice religiously with this weapon just for night defense. My point is a tool is only as good as the practice that goes with it.
Good response. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree!

and as for Hi-points....I'd only use one to hit the guy in the head, if the aforementioned brick was not available! haha!
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Old December 17, 2010, 11:16 AM   #65
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Want to stop saying *****, say 'annoyed'.

BTW, we know the crazed meth biker mantra. So who has a real tale of one of those ignoring 380 rounds as compared to 38s, 45s, etc. with good hits.

I'm very empirical.

Thank you.

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Old December 17, 2010, 11:54 AM   #66
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doesn't a .38 special have more stopping power? that and the fact that it's a revolver round, to me, the snubby is a no-brainer.

reliability+stopping power+ concealability = I'll take the snubby
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Old December 17, 2010, 01:22 PM   #67
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A bunch of people in this thread must clearly be in states with draconian laws against brandishing or something.

For all you people who are so sure that when your gun comes out of the holster it will get used, I have a question.

So what if you pull your gun out of the holster, and your assailant, upon seeing it, immediately turns around and/or drops his weapon and flees? Gary Kleck's research indicates that 93% of defensive gun uses involve no shots fired at all. Many of those involve only verbal references to a gun, but many more involve an assailant seeing their intended victim armed... and leaving.

So you just drew your gun, and your attacker has chosen discretion as the better part of valor.

Are you going to shoot him in the back at this point? After all, your weapon came out of the holster! And we all know that if you ever have to draw your gun, you WILL use it.

On the escalation of force continuum, the THREAT of deadly force is NOT the same as the USE of deadly force.
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Old December 17, 2010, 01:34 PM   #68
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We've been down the must shoot road before. Standard view is that you don't draw unless you have the justification to use deadly force. But you don't have to shoot as a law of physics. You can challenge if it is appropriate or the BG alters behavior.

Certainly, as pointed out, most pointing of firearms by police or civilians do not lead to mandatory firing.

Except on cop shows, when these idiots never shoot when they should. I was just watching an episode of some trash called Criminal Minds and the BG had knife to a kid's throat. The FBI was about 3 feet away and shot him in the shoulder on purpose. Bah! Saw the same thing on Law and Order, SVU. :barf:
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Old December 18, 2010, 01:58 PM   #69
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ProShooter
Quote:
A .380 IS a get off me gun. While any gun of any caliber can kill with the correct shot placement, the .380 is known for being a marginal attack terminator. Its the gun that you use to pump 2 into the bad guys chest, so that you can stand up, get on your feet, and find a brick to whack him with. If someone is a larger build, or wearing a heavy coat, or is all cracked out on the "drug of the week", the .380 is more than likely just going to **** him off unless you unload your magazine into his eye socket.
After this quote it makes me highly doubt you are a firearms instructor

Last edited by Dragline45; December 18, 2010 at 10:42 PM.
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