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Old June 1, 2018, 06:12 PM   #51
cw308
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I don't own a chronograph , I use the thicker of the brands because I load pretty mild 40.8 of IMR 4064 under a 168gr. SMK 308 Cal. The stick powder fills the case to the base of the neck , I don't like the powder to shift around in the loaded case . I would think it could have different burn rate or pressure issues . Could it cause having that great group an then that flier comes from left field when you did everything right .

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Old June 1, 2018, 06:22 PM   #52
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Well metalgod, the benchrest boys go bf crazy weighing bullets and computing case volumes, do their load development to the point they get one hole groups with a couple of tenths leeway on their powder charge so there may be something to it.
Yep , when you take the human element out of shooting like shooting off a bench on a full rest where the shooter is really not even "shooting" . That pretty much just leaves the equipment which includes the ammo . If anyone wants to shoot one hole groups . I urge them to never touch there rifle when they shoot just like a benchrester

Us guys that actually hold are rifles when we shoot will never likely notice .1moa differences in a load . You have to take the human out of the equation to see those differences . I know there are some shooters that shoot well enough to notice but there are very few of those .

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What I was looking for was with the volume differences similar to what I posted is how much will it matter? I really like to keep brass all in the same family when I clean and load. So for example let's say loading Sierra 168 grain HPBT bullets over 40.0 grains of IMR 4895 how much difference might I expect to see in velocity or group? Wish I could measure and look at the pressure curves but not there yet
As my LC-12-LR and LC-14 case comparison seems to indicate . Case volume is also predicated on case quality and hardness . As for lets say a 1gr difference in case volume when comparing cases from the same headstamp and lot . I think you only find out those potential differences by shooting from a machine rest that locks the rifle down , through a chronograph at a distance of at least 600yds . Then measure the vertical stringing . Although doing the first two with a very high quality chrono may do the same thing .

It would seem what case volume , and it's potential variances could cause really comes down to barrel time and when the bullet leaves the barrel in relation to the harmonics of the barrel . If you have a bullet leaving your bore 50 or 100fps slower or faster then the rest . You'll likely have a POI shift with that bullet because of the different position of the muzzle when the bullet leaves the barrel compared to the rest because of the harmonics of the rifle .

I have a great load that shoots sub moa all day out to 300yds using those soft LC-14 cases that have a case volume ES of more then one grain . Now that's me holding my rifle . hmm , well rested on front and rear bags but me still very much in control of the rifle pulled into my shoulder . What does all this mean ? I'm not sure but does put me in the camp of extreme case prep is not needed for the type of shooting I do .
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Old June 1, 2018, 10:21 PM   #53
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Added this to a new post just in case some already ready my last post

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I have a great load that shoots sub moa all day out to 300yds using those soft LC-14 cases that have a case volume ES of more then one grain . Now that's me holding my rifle . hmm , well rested on front and rear bags but me still very much in control of the rifle pulled into my shoulder . What does all this mean ? I'm not sure but does put me in the camp of extreme case prep is not needed for the type of shooting I do .
I have some of those LC-14 case loaded up . I'm going to the range on the 11th . I'll run those over my chrono and see what kind of ES/SD I get with those cases that have a 1.2gr variance in case volume .
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Old June 2, 2018, 07:07 AM   #54
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I have some of those LC-14 case loaded up . I'm going to the range on the 11th . I'll run those over my chrono and see what kind of ES/SD I get with those cases that have a 1.2gr variance in case volume
I ran about 2500 rounds across my chrono last year and one thing that I will bet the farm on and that is the SD is dependent on the powder choice and the load. Case volumes had no effect as far as I could tell.

I can take 45 cases from a prepped batch and load 15 with 44.0 grains, 15 with 44.4 and 15 with 44.8 grains of the same powder and get SD's from 5 to 30 depending on the powder load . Then go prep those same 45 cases once again choose cases at random and repeat the test and get similar results. I have 200 Peterson .260 Remington cases that get shot, prepped and reloaded randomly and as long as I prep and load them the same they give consistently low ES and SD numbers. I can take those same cases and load them outside of the "flat spot" on my load workups and the numbers jump up
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Old June 2, 2018, 10:11 AM   #55
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I don't remember what the ES/SD was on that load but would guess the SD is somewhere in the teens . I did a test a few years ago that showed how I held the rifle effected my ES/SD so I no longer put to much stock in those numbers . It wasn't a lot but I was able to reduce my SD from the teens to single digits just by how I held the rifle .

Unless my SD's are in the 20's+ I more go off consistent group size as to what constitutes a good load .
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Old June 2, 2018, 12:33 PM   #56
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I did a test a few years ago that showed how I held the rifle effected my ES/SD so I no longer put to much stock in those numbers
a consistent hold is important no matter what disicpline you are shooting. I dry fire at least three 30 minute sessions per week practicing cheek weld, follow through, breathing etc. Most of my flyers are attributable to me, the shooter. Not ammo or gun.

I was shooting my tactical build a week or two back at 600. Loaded 5 rounds in the magazine shot them. Loaded 5 more and shot those. When I checked my target my ten shot group was really more like two 5 shot groups that overlapped. I must have changed my cheek weld or grip slightly on my second magazine. Time for more dry firing


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Unless my SD's are in the 20's+ I more go off consistent group size as to what constitutes a good load
at what range ?

take two 168 SMK's one traveling 2700 FPS the other 2675 or 25 FPS slower. Shoot both from a mounted test barrel and action. Point of impact for the slower bullet will be .4 lower at 300 yards, 4 inches lower at 800 yards and 9 inches lower at 1000. That's easily the difference between the ten ring and the nine ring at the longer ranges.

I develop my loads for 600 - 1000 so I want SD's in the single digits. Even at closer ranges the lower my SD the fewer flyers I seem to get.

I see people shoot 1 hole groups at 100 and shoot in the 180's with the same load at 800 with vertical spreads of over a minute and a half
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Old June 2, 2018, 12:51 PM   #57
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Most of my shooting at distance is only 300yds because that's the distance I have most access to . An SD of 25fps would not be expectable to me . I really don't like it any more the 15fps so that would be something like .25"-ish at 300yds . I'm not sure I can shoot well enough to notice that , in fact I'm certain I can't shoot that well . I mean that's less then a 10th moa . I just don't have the skills or the equipment to shoot that well .
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Old June 2, 2018, 02:27 PM   #58
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If you have SD's in the teens then you have ES's in the 30's or more. But like you said at 200 and 300 it will not affect POI enough to matter for most of us

I guess my question is if you are not worried about velocity consistency why be concerned with case volume. I have a .223 load that is great for practicing technique, any fliers at 100 - 300 are due to my shooting technique. At 800 it would be all over the paper just on the vertical. On a calm day it would look like someone hung a polka dot tie off the bull, I am talking 100 FPS differences and a low BC bullet
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Old June 2, 2018, 03:07 PM   #59
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I guess my question is if you are not worried about velocity consistency why be concerned with case volume.
Oh I see you are confusing curiosity with concern . Not worried really but when those CBC cases almost over flowed that peaked my curiosity on the case volume differences and what that would do performance wise . I don't remember which happened first The CBC 223 cases or the LC-14 cases but I also had that issue with my LC-14 cases not being able to be loaded to the same charge as ( what now is ) any of my other 308 cases . So again I measured and compared there case volumes . Again out of curiosity but there was a little concern with those because there was a full 2gr difference in charge weights with the velocities being where they should be respectively . The 43.5gr charge in the LC-12-LR cases was right up at 2700fps with no pressure signs while the 41.5gr charge in the LC-14 cases where under 2600fps while at the same time showing a pressure sign of sticky bolt lifts .

It would have been one thing if the LC-14 case velocities were at or faster then the other cases and showing pressure signs . How ever they were well below the velocities I was getting with the higher charge . So in my head I'm thinking 2gr less of a charge and well over 100fps slower . Those two things combined should indicate that load has a much lower peak pressure and yet I was still getting the sticky bolt . My curiosity went through the roof on that one .
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Old June 2, 2018, 04:41 PM   #60
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ahh ok, I understand now
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Old June 2, 2018, 05:16 PM   #61
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FWIW, when I was shooting in 1,000 yard F Class Competition, in load development we looked for ES's of about 20 and SD's of about 5. Lapua brass was used almost to a man on the line. I don't know of anyone who used milsurp brass.

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Old June 21, 2018, 01:00 AM   #62
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Hello I'm back !! ;-)

Ok I started over on my case volume test and just seated new primers in all the cases to seal the primer pockets . I have 4 sets of 11 cases to test . Of the 44 primers I seated I weighed 12 of them . They all weighed 5.3gr so that's 25% of the primers weighed and all weighed the same .

Don't get to happy I'm not done yet but should finish by tomorrow night Hope to have some numbers for you all some time tomorrow evening PST so it may be quite late for some of you . I just need to do the water capacity measurements on the LC-12-LR and Fed GMM cases , the other two sets ( Lapua and LC-14 ) cases are finished .


Hope to see you soon
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Old June 21, 2018, 12:06 PM   #63
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Us guys that actually hold are rifles when we shoot will never likely notice .1moa differences in a load . You have to take the human out of the equation to see those differences . I know there are some shooters that shoot well enough to notice but there are very few of those .
Each to his own. Some hunt, some target shoot

Two totally different goals using the same type (often not the same equipment)

As a advanced middle age guy (old fart) with ruptured disk, my hunting days are gone.

Its a challenge and fun to put 5 rounds into as small a space as you can.

Back in the day though, I still did the same drill off a bench.

Why? Because I needed to know what the gun and ammo were doing without knowing what I was adding to the mix.

I think I only did one free hand shot hunting. All others were braced one way or the other. The goal was not to find out how great a standing shot I was, it was to get the animal into my freezer.

I did know if I missed ( once and that was the free standing shot due to the situation not what I normally did) it was not the gun or ammo.
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Old June 21, 2018, 11:44 PM   #64
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Sorry guys , I totally forgot why I was doing this . I got done measuring all my fire formed cases and realized I now have to size them all and do it again . What I was supposed to be doing is comparing the differences of fire formed cases to FL sized cases correct ???

My bad , it will take another day or so to finish . I have the LC-14 cases fully completed but need to size and remeasure the other 3 lots .
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Old June 22, 2018, 12:49 AM   #65
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RC20, you nailed it.
Even though I'm a hunter before all else, I want that "competition" accuracy to guarantee that I know where the bullet is going to go.
As my brothers put it in regards to a couple of my loads, "You get to pick which hairs you'll cut on the way to the [animal's] heart."

Just because "minute of deer" is good enough for some people, doesn't mean it's good enough for me in most applications. (I, admittedly, do have a few "good enough" rifles and loads. ...But they're used where "good enough" is 'more than enough'.)

Sadly, though probably younger, I'm approaching the same "wall": Injuries and complications are piling up. I can't pack elk quarters out any more, which pretty much kills serious elk hunting. And even Mule Deer are a bit of a challenge, since my back can't handle much hiking. I fear my big game days are numbered.
Before long, the case prep, sorting, and precision 'hair cutting' loads will be behind me. I'll be, at best, hauling a shotgun or rimfire around to fill the freezer with bunnies and grouse.

...But it won't stop me from still wanting tiny groups at the range.
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Old June 22, 2018, 02:59 AM   #66
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Us guys that actually hold are rifles when we shoot will never likely notice .1moa ( 1/10 moa ) differences in a load
When working up a load I use a front and rear bag , sometimes a bipod and rear bag prone if that's how the rifle and or load for that rifle is intended to be used . I consider my self a pretty good shot and I couldn't tell if my load could or could not shoot a 1/10 of a moa better , I'm just not that good , I wouldn't even know what to do to squeeze that little bit more out of a load .

I'd love to see some of your guys groups where it was small enough to notice 1/10 moa differences from shot to shot I'd also like to know when you are shooting that small of groups . How do you know what to do to make them better ? . Maybe I'm wrong but it would seem to me the group could not be much larger then the width of the bullet if shooting 30cal . I can shoot groups with all bullet holes touching in a cluster ( not string ) but that's still only around 1/2 moa . With the equipment and my abilities that's about as good as I can consistently shoot . I mean I have some incredible one off groups I've shot that were just a hole in the paper with only the outer edge showing the curve of a couple of the 5 of 10 bullets fired but that's not the norm .
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Old June 22, 2018, 06:49 PM   #67
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Here's what I have so far , I did not finish all the data but all the relevant numbers are there . I could not get the spreadsheet to upload so I took a picture of a printed copy

There are a couple things to note . Each individual lot/headstamp were sized to the same length from head to datum using my Hornady gauge Bumping the shoulders back .002 to .003 depending on the headstamp . How ever I only used a Body die so the necks were not sized down or expanded and are the exact same diameter as they were when measuring the fire formed section .

ALL MEASUREMENTS ARE IN GRAINS

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Old June 22, 2018, 07:59 PM   #68
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Interesting as the Federal GMM would be my choice of those you tested.

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Old June 22, 2018, 09:40 PM   #69
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Agreed as far as consistency . How ever it's been rumored that Fed brass is soft and does not last as long as lets say Lapua so the lupua brass although slightly less consistent may in the long run be the better brass to use .

I'd also like to point out that my calculation of the fire formed Fed GMM capacity ES is wrong . The correct ES should be .8gr

The one thing I'm happy about is I ran this test a couple years ago with the LC-14 , LC-12-LR and Lapua brass and all the numbers from the last test matched this recent test to with in .1gr and that's different pieces tested as well .
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Old June 22, 2018, 10:51 PM   #70
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Hope that data helped , it did me or at least confirmed what I already knew . I think I'll continue doing my volume test with my fire formed brass rather then sized cases . The theory is that fire formed brass from a specific rifle represents the actual available space for powder as it builds pressure . Quick loads wants fire formed case capacity to calculate it's data . I have to assume that's because not only does every die size cases different . Each reloader sizes there cases to different specs . Leaving the fire formed cases as being the only truly consistent capsule from which to get the measurements from .
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Old June 23, 2018, 04:16 AM   #71
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Thanks for the update MG, do you plan to load, shoot and report results?
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Old June 23, 2018, 10:02 AM   #72
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What I did not expect was the difference in capacity extreme spread for fireformed and FL resized to be that much different (0.56 and 0.89). I expected a little bit less for fireformed because the wider the case the less significant the wall thickness to the total volume, but not that much. The GMM has the most difference and Lapua the least.
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Old June 23, 2018, 11:40 AM   #73
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Thanks for the update MG, do you plan to load, shoot and report results?
No but only because that would take me a really long time to finish and I already have good loads using all that brass . The issue with the loads already worked up is that none use the same components . Generally I pick a case/headstamp and dedicate the components to that case


What data or results were you looking to get . I keep pretty detailed load data notes , maybe I have what you're looking for .

Quote:
What I did not expect was the difference in capacity extreme spread for fireformed and FL resized to be that much different (0.56 and 0.89). I expected a little bit less for fireformed because the wider the case the less significant the wall thickness to the total volume, but not that much. The GMM has the most difference and Lapua the least.
I don't remember if I mentioned it earlier but think I did . The Lapua , LC-14 & LC-12-LR all were fired from the same Savage model 10 while the Fed GMM were fired from my Ruger PR . The Ruger has a shorter headspace but larger diameter chamber then the Savage . My savage cases will drop into a case gauge but the Rugers will sit up about 3/8" and I bump the Ruger shoulders back .0015 more then the Savage when bumping .002 from fire formed . I could feel these differences when sizing all these cases . I used Hornady's Unique sizing lube but could still tell the Fed cases body's were being sized down a tad more based on the force needed to size them . Maybe not even the force but the feel of it really . It was like I could feel the friction between die and case body when sizing . The Fed cases being fatter when fire formed is likely the difference why you see that large of a variance since all cases were sized with the same die .
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Old June 23, 2018, 12:37 PM   #74
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Correction

I was just in my reloading room and just by chance dropped one of the body only sized Fed GGM cases into my case gauge and it still stuck out of the gauge 3/8" . Then I remembered the necks were never sized . It appears the resistance I wrongly assumed was body interference is actually neck interference in the gauge . This then does make that variance UN talked about interesting . Maybe the Fed cases are a tad bit softer and size down easier with less spring back ?????
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Old June 27, 2018, 09:41 AM   #75
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Correction

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was just in my reloading room and just by chance dropped one of the body only sized Fed GGM cases into my case gauge and it still stuck out of the gauge 3/8" . Then I remembered
That would never happen top me; I do not have case head space gages because my cases do not have head space.

And then? I do not confuse my gages with other gages. I have case gages, I make case gages I have chamber gages.

And then there are those that confuse the function of gages. If you are using a case gage you should know the case gage measures fired and unfired/full length sized cases.

I suggest you forget the gages and start painting your cases; after an attempt to chamber a case look for scratches.

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