The Browning High Power....

[Brit]

The civilian model I bought. In 1960 in Manchester UK, at the Gun Shop in Withy Grove. Was in the window, with a price tab of twenty pounds! $40.00.
I went in, "Whats that, a deposit?" There was only me and the young sales man
in the shop! He pulled me over, closer to the counter.
"It's on consighnment, the owner was an A-ole! He was a civian contractor, on a 2 year contract. To Malta. Bought it from a Browning and Sterling sub gun dealer in London. Just to export. You could not buy to keep in England.
His first day on the job, he put a shoulder holster on, complete with his new pistol. First MP that saw him, confiscated it for the two years he was there.
Arrived back in Manchester, the Police confiscated it. He tried to get it back, he stated he would be joining a gun club? They said it did not work that way.
Marched him off to the gun shop. Apprently he was just as popular with the Cops as he was with everyone else he dealt with. I was a Gun Club member since I was 18, and owned 2 pistols already, just needed to enter it into my local Police data, and write it on my Permit. "Is this a target pistol?" I was asked "I can shoot targets with, can I not?" I said. "Fair enough" the reply.

Not a bad price for a gleaming spotless new Civilian finish BHP. Walnut Grips, two 13 round magazines. And a shoulder holster. I had Harry Hickys Gun shop in Toronto, smooth the trigger down to 4lbs, and remove the magazine disconnect!
Prior to leaving England, I was shooting on a Military Range I had permission to shoot on? Dont ask! When a Secend Lt. With a squad of 4 Sqdys challenged me to a shooting match, at 20M, me with my BHP, him with his Sten Gun, a Sub Gun set on Semi. I beat him, the "Box" turned out to be a case of NATO Mil Spec 9mm. What a deal, I still paid for a round of pints of Guinness!

On closing, a story about (W.H.B Smith's Small Arms of the World) I was in the Ontario Supreme Court in Toronto. Waiting to give evidence in an expert witness Capacity. When I bumped into Johnny Sombrero, I biker who I knew.
As I had a lot of time before I was set to testify, I went to see his case (To do with the Police trying to confiscate his collection of converted from Full Auto FN 762 Rifles) Johnnys Expert in the witness stand. Big book open in font of the Crowns Expert. Bunch of little yellow stickly markers protruding.

"Do you mind me asking whose book you're referring to?" W.H.B Smith's Small Arms of the World" "I am that Auther" Was the reply! Pricless.
Yes He did get his Guns back. But never fully recovered from the beating he got during his arrest!

[Scorch]

The Browning High Power....
...was JMB's and Dieudonne Saive's one big mistake. Because they designed it around the 9MMP it cannot be chambered in larger calibers such as 9MM Largo, 38 Super and 45 ACP without major redesign and retooling.

Not sure how that's a mistake.

You can rebarrel them for 40S&W like Browning did.

You can rechamber them for 7.65 Parabellum, like some military and police in various parts of the world had FN do. But it's hard to adapt them for something bigger than what they were designed for. So how is that a mistake? So is the BAR a mistake becasue it wouldn't handle 50 BMG? No.

Biggest mistake Dieudonne Saive made was redesigning the internal extractor to be an external extractor. The Hi Power's Achilles heel!

[RickB]

Saive retired in '54, and I think the external extractor appeared in '61.

[jmstr]

I fully acknowledge the limitations to the High Power design- such as long trigger reset and overtravel issues. Today, a couple others are weight, 13 round capacity [MecGar makes a 15 round mag] and no rail on dust cover.

I live in CA, so 10 rounds are my max, and I live in CA, so carry is not a possibility for me. Thus, only the dust cover issue is any type of issue.

That said- I LIKE the GP35 that we know more commonly as the Browning High Power.

I shoot it well, it is reliable and capable of more accuracy than I.

I have sold 3 or 4 over the years but still have 3.

The only one that is 'bone stock' is sort of bone stock- and that is a 1958 GP35 made for the Austrian national land police, salzburg region. So, internal extractor.

However, I do have a modern top end for it, so that I don't have to worry about damage to barrel/chamber/slide.


The other two are .40cal versions that have had their guts dumped and replaced. the ejector is stock, and so are pins. But trigger, sear and hammer are all aftermarket.

I pieced together stuff to make either of them a multi-caliber handgun: .357sig barrel [and recoil spring], 9mm conversion barrel and .22lr top end.


I can shoot other handguns decently, but the BHP just feels RIGHT in my hand.

Even if there are more technologically advanced handguns, with better capabilities, I like it.

Oh- 1911 fans, don't get me wrong. I also like the 1911.


I would put those two at #s 2 and 3 on my 'favorite handgun' list.

#1?

Ruger MK II Government Target.

[Hal]

Personally - I consider both my Browning Hi Powers to be part of a small collection of handguns that I consider a perfect fit for me - in caliber, capacity and feel.
To each their own...

[dogtown tom]

Originally Posted by SIGSHR View Post
...was JMB's and Dieudonne Saive's one big mistake. Because they designed it around the 9MMP it cannot be chambered in larger calibers such as 9MM Largo, 38 Super and 45 ACP without major redesign and retooling.

Well....the same could be said for Glock. It took a frame redesign for the .45acp and 10mm models.
As far as 9mm Largo? You have to be kidding. Outside of Spain that round was dead before WWI.

On another board someone mentioned barrels in 7.65MMP, never saw one of those.

FN produced factory Hi Powers in 9mm, 7.65 Luger and .40s&w.

[dogtown tom]

RickB ......and the satisfying answer was that the CZ75 and its derivatives ARE the 21st Century HP.

It's a disappointing answer coming from Gun Jesus. That's because the CZ75 design has nothing to do with the BHP.

[dogtown tom]

Scorch....Biggest mistake Dieudonne Saive made was redesigning the internal extractor to be an external extractor. The Hi Power's Achilles heel!

Are you kidding? The external extractor is much better in every way..cheaper to make, better extraction and much, much more durable.

[rock185]

As the 9X19MM is the most used centerfire pistol cartridge on the planet, I and many millions of others don't think designing the Hi Power and so many other pistols around the 9MM cartridge was a mistake. I've owned I don't even know how many FN/Browning Hi Powers since about '66-'67, collected them, carried Hi Powers off-duty, etc. FWIW, the 1962 engineering change that led to the pivoting external extractor was not a mistake either. I admire the older Hi Powers with the internal extractor, that utilized the elegant sear lever pivot, but the external pivoting lever extractors perform at least as well. My internal extractor guns routinely left the last expended cartridge case laying atop the follower of the empty magazine. This did not affect function, but it was odd. My external extractor guns never did this.

I had both 7.65 and .40 Hi Powers. The 7.65 utilized a thinner, lighter slide and smaller diameter barrel. The .40, a heavier slide and larger diameter 3 locking lug barrel. Both utterly reliable, as might be expected of FN/Browning products.

I routinely see the CZ75 referred to as some sort of variant, modification of, or descendant of the Hi Power. I've had CZ75s. They are certainly good guns, similar in size, etc. to the Hi Power, but that's it. No part interchanges.

In my dotage, I'm down to only three Hi Powers now but I intend to hang on to these

[Drm50]

I’ve got one that will come in under 3lbs and is factory. The only down side to my pistol is it will not shoot cast of any kind. I have played with around 20 different molds, some 38/357s, alloys, powder— you name it. Won’t do squat put any FMJ in it and it will group. It loves Win White box FMJ.

[rock185]

Drm50, Your comments about cast bullets in the Hi Power is consistent with my experience. I tried all kinds of cast bullet variations, but never got really good accuracy from any of them. The NATO style rifling leade, and 1 in 10 twist, just didn't work well with any cast bullet recipe I tried. The Barsto barrels shot cast bullets very well, but not everybody wants to go to that expense.

I once bought a GP Comp Hi Power from someone who said it wouldn't shoot. I'd previously owned a GP Comp, so bought it anyway. Sure enough, I learned he'd only shot cast bullets in it, and didn't understand why it didn't group well like his cast bullet loads in .45 ACP. After laboriously cleaning copious quantities of lead fouling from the bore, the pistol was capable of fine accuracy with jacketed bullets. I no longer have that one, but still have the last of the three GP Comps I've owned. Still don't use cast bullets in any of my Hi Powers....

[Jim Watson]

As said, the customer asked for a 9mm P, Browning, Saive, and FN gave them a 9mm. The French reneged and went with the odd 7.65x20, commonly said to be based on the .30 Pedersen device round, which seems strange because the Pedersen device was never deployed to the trenches in Europe.

As to the design features D. Saive incorporated between 1927 and 1935, at least some of them came right out of the Colt/Browning patents that were expiring.

I have a picture of a FN prototype in 7.65x20, kind of a last gasp after the French had already sloughed them off twice. It looks nothing like a P35 or a Petter. Too bad there are no details as to its operation.

I have thought that the 9mm Browning Long, 9x20SR, had more potential but it was not adopted by anybody but the Swedes that I know of. FN and Husqvarna made the big 1903 Browning; Le Francais and Webley built a few to their own designs.

[Drm50]

I had one of the French 1935 model pistols for the 32 French Long. I built about 2 dozen cartridges for it and used a 77gr cast bullet. The pistol put you in mind of a Sig 210 as far as style. Extremely comfortable in the hand. Cartridge and accuracy didn’t excite me. I’m not the type that gets off dressing up like a French troop to shoot my pistol.

[rock185]

I never had one of the French .32 long pistols, but admit I'm a bit of a fan of the 210s that came after. Thank goodness they are not chambered in .32 French long.

I know there is a matter of national pride involved, but IMHO the French made a mistake in turning down the Hi Power and going with their 1935A and S pistols IIRC, utilizing a proprietary cartridge...

[jaysouth]

Tom
Were those ever produced in 9X21 for the Italian market?

[dogtown tom]

jaysouth Tom
Were those ever produced in 9X21 for the Italian market?

None that I've heard of.
If they were that would be among the rarest of Hi Powers.

[44 AMP]

As the 9X19MM is the most used centerfire pistol cartridge on the planet, I and many millions of others don't think designing the Hi Power and so many other pistols around the 9MM cartridge was a mistake.

while guns designed well after WWII and the creation of NATO with 9mm at its standard makes sense, note when the High Power hit the market.

1935

I think the 9mm Luger was not the most used centerfire pistol cartridge on the planet THEN.

It was popular, but not the dominant round is became after WWII.
Nations that had adopted the Luger pistol were potential customers. But not Nazi Germany, who still had Lugers and were looking to adopt their own design (which became the P.38). England didn't use the 9mm. Nor France, or Italy, or Spain, nor, of course, the Soviet Union.
No hope of the US govt buying the High Power, and before WWII, the 9mm Luger was not a particularly popular round in the US civilian market.

Making a pistol in 9mm Luger back then was NOT the sure thing it is today.

[Jim Watson]

Well, they THOUGHT it was a sure thing but France didn't buy the gun they asked FN for.
Belgium eventually adopted it over the previous 1922 .380.
Sweden and Finland bought HPs in lieu of 1903 9mm Browning Long, Lahtis, and Lugers.

[dogtown tom]

44 AMP
Quote:
As the 9X19MM is the most used centerfire pistol cartridge on the planet, I and many millions of others don't think designing the Hi Power and so many other pistols around the 9MM cartridge was a mistake.
while guns designed well after WWII and the creation of NATO with 9mm at its standard makes sense, note when the High Power hit the market.

1935

I think the 9mm Luger was not the most used centerfire pistol cartridge on the planet THEN.

What centerfire pistol cartridge do you think was more popular?
And "popular" could mean sheer numbers of firearms chambered or number of countries adopting or producing firearms in a particular caliber.

Extensive use of 9mmP handguns in WWI greatly increased popularity after the Armistice.
I'm guessing the 9mm Luger was in the top three centerfire pistol cartridges in 1935 based on Germany producing sub machine guns like the MP34 from 1929-40.

It was popular, but not the dominant round is became after WWII.

It wasn't dominant, but probably the most widely adopted round being used extensively by Allies and Axis alike.

Nations that had adopted the Luger pistol were potential customers. But not Nazi Germany, who still had Lugers and were looking to adopt their own design (which became the P.38). England didn't use the 9mm.

England didn't use the 9mmP prior to WWII because they had little interest in submachine guns. Once WWII started they sure as heck became interested in 9mmP

Nor France, or Italy, or Spain, nor, of course, the Soviet Union.
No hope of the US govt buying the High Power, and before WWII, the 9mm Luger was not a particularly popular round in the US civilian market.

France and Spain were noted for loving obscure cartridges that had little interest outside their own.

And with JMB's licensing agreements with Colt and FN it wasn't likely the Hi Power would have been supplied or even marketed in the USA. That exclusive license didn't expire until after WWII.

A large part of the success of 9mmP is because post war arms production seemed to center on FN for the free world. Add in LOTS of 9mmP surplus guns provided to every Third World country.

Making a pistol in 9mm Luger back then was NOT the sure thing it is today.

True.

[44 AMP]

Extensive use of 9mmP handguns in WWI greatly increased popularity after the Armistice.

I won't argue about "greatly increased' but, considering the 9mm Luger was only 6 years old at the beginning, and 10 at the time of the end of WWI, that's not a lot of time to build up a popular following, particularly in civilian markets.

I'm guessing the 9mm Luger was in the top three centerfire pistol cartridges in 1935 based on Germany producing sub machine guns like the MP34 from 1929-40.

I' not sure that it is proper to count the 9mm's popularity as a submachine gun round with its popularity as a handgun round.

If you look at non-military handguns, models made and numbers made, I'd say the .38 Special was more popular (meaning more people owned and used them) than the 9mm for a very long time.

[dogtown tom]

44 AMP

I won't argue about "greatly increased' but, considering the 9mm Luger was only 6 years old at the beginning, and 10 at the time of the end of WWI, that's not a lot of time to build up a popular following, particularly in civilian markets.

Civilian market was/is an afterthought in Europe. Military and police contracts drive sales and civilian sales are gravy.

I' not sure that it is proper to count the 9mm's popularity as a submachine gun round with its popularity as a handgun round.

I do.
Commonality of ammunition between subguns and handguns was important for logistical reasons. Brits had the 9mm in the Hi Power and in their subguns as well. The Americans the .45 in the 1911, Thompson and M3. The Germans as well.

This commonality certainly helped drive the 9mmP popularity in both.

If you look at non-military handguns, models made and numbers made, I'd say the .38 Special was more popular (meaning more people owned and used them) than the 9mm for a very long time.

Here in the US for sure, but worldwide? I don't think so.

[AustinTX]

Originally Posted by veprdude

Point and shoot is incredible on the Hi Power. Yes they're getting expensive, but you're still getting a hand fitted pistol.

Hi-Powers were not hand-fit to any significant extent. There’s substantial variation in slide-to-frame and barrel-to-slide fit from gun to gun at every point in production.

[BJung]

I own two BHP and like them because they're comfortable in my hand. I bought a 9mm ad 40 cal because I reload and was collecting too much brass and needed a gun to go with it. My favorite is the 40cal. I'd separate the brass by head stamp then weight and length. Then I'd load the cases with bullets separated by weight to a specific OAL. Finally I'd shoot clay pigeons at 100 yards for fun.

[rodfac]

As I've said here before, I carried one on my first tour in Vietnam for much of 1970. I'd owned one prior but did not bring it along when I received orders for Saigon. My predecessor flying out of An Loc's Special Forces "B" camp in lll Corps, had one that appealed to me with its 13 round magazine. I inherited it when he rotated back to the CONUS.

The gun was a 64-65 model standard and absolutely reliable with any 9mm round then produced...all FMJ's BTW...and fit my hand like a digital extension...still does in fact. For 10 months, it was never out of reach including trips to the head, showers and frequent nights in a variety of slit trenches/bunkers. In a word, I loved that old piece as much as the L-19 that was my daily 'ride' around the province. I carried it in a 'tanker' Army cross chest rig that didn't interfere with shoulder straps and lap belt in the airplane, and was always there if needed and the big fan quit working.

I currently own two HP's....one is a two-tone 9 that's as accurate as any Sig I've owned, and close to my 1911 .45's for accuracy...with tuned loads that suit the gun. The other is a .40, nearly as accurate, and with that deep blued finish that Browning's been famous for for as long as I can remember. Both have had their magazine safeties removed resulting in a trigger that's good but not on the level of a good 1911's.

Gripes about the HP's tiny safety are valid, as are those criticizing the small sights on early ones. But aside from those concerns, the gun's close to perfection in my esteem...great, no superb feel in the hand, natural point ability for combat use up close, and the perfect weight for the 9mm round...

Here's a pic of the two-tone with Hogue stocks fitted....the .40 looks just a good doncha think? The minimalist OWB holster is one I cooked up for field carry, BTW...great shooters and certainly pretty enough for any BBQ in Kentucky....YMMv, Rod

[jetinteriorguy]

Even though I only have the FEG copy I’m going to chime in on something. Even though this is an all steel pistol it just feels light in the hand. I love the way it fits and just seems to point naturally. Given the current prices on the real deal I’ll probably never own one, but other than a beauty contest I like the FEG enough to be plenty happy with it.