A .357 magnum .38 special +P

[44 AMP]

The subject of the thread is pushing a 38 Special up to 357 mag performance.

No, its not. You are mistaken.

The title of the thread is "A .357 magnum .38 special +P".

That is the title, and these are the first two lines of the OP

Say you own a .38 special revolver, but want some .357 power out of it.
Say, something like the old 38/44 loads.

Note the use of the word "some", and the reference to the .38/44 loads. The original post is NOT talking about jacking the .38 up to .357 mag performance.

I hope HighValleyRanch will post and expand/explain what he meant in the original post starting the thread What I got out of it was an example of where a certain .38+p load actually delivers higher velocity than some .357 loads, from his gun.

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by jimku

What on God's green earth has that got to do with pushing a 38 Special cartridge up to 357 performance levels? A 38 Special case is a 38 Special case. It is going to fit in a 38 Special chamber. Unless of course you stuff a Godzilla bullet in it. Nothing to even consider much less reflect on. Nobody here has even remotely suggested trying to stuff a 357 cartridge into a 38 Special revolver.

You flat missed the point of his post completely. The .357 Mag case is longer so it won't fit into a 38 Spl cylinder because the Peak pressure difference between two calibers is so large. The SAAMI peak pressure for .38 Spl is 17,000psi, the .38 Spl +P is 18,500psi, and the .357 Mag is 35,000psi.

The .357 Mag case is thicker to contain the more than double peak pressure over that of the .38 Spl and it's longer in large part so idiots don't try to shoot a .357 Mag round in a gun designed for .38 Spl. It's that simple. If you want to risk blowing up your gun and crippling yourself, then you have the right to do dumb things.

However, if you were to do that and injure someone else, those people could and likely would sue you for everything you own right down to your underwear . . . . and win. Further, you might also be in for criminal charges depending upon what your local DA thought about your "wanton disregard for other's safety."

[HighValleyRanch]

I hope HighValleyRanch will post and expand/explain what he meant in the original post starting the thread What I got out of it was an example of where a certain .38+p load actually delivers higher velocity than some .357 loads, from his gun

44 AMP got the point.
My post does not claim that you can push .38 special +P to equal the hottest .357.
I use examples where the .38 +P overlaps what people consider mid power loads such as magtech and armscor.

The reason for my creating this thread is that people too often generalize .38 special, .38 special +P and .357 magnum without actually discussing what load or actual data is being used.

But there is a good amount of overlap as I presented in my data and chrongraphed loads.
Can a .357 be more powerful than a .38 special +P.....yes
Can a .38 special (+P) be more powerful than what is claimed as a .357 magnum? Yes.
Can that same .38 special +P be as powerful as the hottest .357 loads....NO

I know that some people think just because they are shooting .357 that they are shooting "full house" loads. Maybe they are using the data on the box but don't realize that the company used a 6 inch barrel instead of a 2" barrel.

I've seen threads where the shooting forums recommend that people going into the woods carry a minimum of .357 for big cats and bears. Some poor unknowing individual might believe all the stats on the box and think his "full house" load is adequate where in reality if they had chrongraphed the load they might discover that in reality they are only carrying a .38 special +P load. That is why I encourage the actual testing of the loads so you know what you are actually carrying.

This all came about because I was testing my Buffalobore .38 special +P outdoorsman. I noticed that the recoil felt identical to some .357 ammo I had been shooting. So I did the test and found that they were almost identical with the BB loads a little hotter. In a blind test, my brother could not tell the difference.

I live in the woods and there are plenty of four legged critters for me to want to carry around the ranch for whatever reasons. I prefer to carry my lightweight .38 special LCRX all day working, so want the hottest HC loads it can handle. The BB loads are in the 425 ft pound range with 158 grain hardcast, and although I could be carry my heavier .357 with the 180 grain loads, everything is a balance of compromises. Therefore in this case I carry .38 special over .357. Snake shot on my belt as well. Now when I go up into high country, it wil be the .357 in the 2' Kimber and I know that I have over 600 pounds of ME with 180 grain hardcast.

[44 AMP]

Thank you for that explanation.

I would also add, for consideration, the fact that while generally the guns and load performances are similar, each combination is unique and sometimes "the stars line up" and give results outside the expected norms.

I've seen guns deliver velocities 100fps different from the same barrel length, shooting the same ammunition. Its not common, the difference is usually much less, but it does happen.

I've also seen the pretty rare case of a 4" barrel clocking 15fps higher than an 8" barrel shooting the same ammo. This is due to factors specific to the guns being measured, and not general result. Some guns are "fast" and some are "slow" compared to the average.

So, while you get what you get, and you're entirely right to report what you got, always bear in mind that someone else, using as close to what you used as possible, could have very different results. Probably won't, but could.

[HighValleyRanch]

I totally agree. Could be cylinder gap, bore size, etc.
Again, the mantra of why one needs to actually test their loads.....if they care to know the facts.
I usually and do five shots average, because I have seen some loads vary quite a bit, round to round.
That is why the one video I saw of the underwood where he stated 1355 fps, and he only did one round was suspect to me.

Again, ME is only one factor. Bullet design, bullet weight and design, and purpose of use are all part of the variable compromise. To me, ME represents the power potential. But as velocity increases the ME more than bullet weight, it cannot be the sole determiner.

I don't care how experience one thinks that they are, pure subjective "it felt like more wallop" doesn't cut the grain. Could be that the grips don't mitigate the recoil enough, that one didn't have that extra cup of coffee in the morning, your hold was too loose, you didn't have your earmuffs on properly.....etc

[jimku]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

44 AMP got the point.
My post does not claim that you can push .38 special +P to equal the hottest .357.
I use examples where the .38 +P overlaps what people consider mid power loads such as magtech and armscor.

The reason for my creating this thread is that people too often generalize .38 special, .38 special +P and .357 magnum without actually discussing what load or actual data is being used.

But there is a good amount of overlap as I presented in my data and chrongraphed loads.
Can a .357 be more powerful than a .38 special +P.....yes
Can a .38 special (+P) be more powerful than what is claimed as a .357 magnum? Yes.
Can that same .38 special +P be as powerful as the hottest .357 loads....NO

Thank you for that!
I will concede that there is some overlap between a lower-powered 357 load and a souped-up 38 Special. But that in no way makes the two cartridges equal.

Probably would have been a good idea to leave "357" out of the title and just said something like "Super powerful 38+P load".

And I give you credit with coming up with a powerful 38 Special load!

Next question is whether or not it is wise to use such a souped-up hand load in a self-defense gun (with lawyers in mind). Probably should be an entirely different thread because caliber is irrelevant to the discussion.

[HighValleyRanch]

I stated that I am using that load for woods and critters carry, but BB does come up with a comparable lead hollow point that pretty much duplicates or slightly exceeds the old .38 special FBI load which was 158 grain lead bullet at around 1000 fps. Similar to the 38/44 which was more like 1200 fps.
It would be no different legally wise than having .357 in your carry revolver.

Again, there are going to be instances when your gun is chamber for just .38 special (+P) for whatever reason and these hotter loads give you more option. I had a beautiful Colt Official Police I wanted to carry around the ranch and wanted the woods load, and since that was built on the large frame similar to the python, it was OK to occasionally shoot +P in, similar to the Smith Outdoorsman. But sold it because it was too nice for everyday knock around carry and had the 6" barrel.

[Jim Watson]

A gunzine writer ran all calibers of a well known brand of high performance pistol ammo through a pressure-velocity test rig. Most were at or near advertised velocity and just under SAAMI maximum pressure. Except for the .38 Special +P. It gave 33000 ppsi, 94% of .357 Magnum and a 65% overload of .38 +P.
A guy here had some of it and it was vicious to fire. Didn't blow up the gun, though. Reportedly the manufacturer brought that round back to spec.

Phil Sharpe showed .38 loads right up there with .357. Unfortunately most with powders long discontinued.

Colt used to explicitly "rate" all their .38s for all ammo, even .38-44 in Detetective Special. Smith didn't.

[Hal]

You might take a moment and reflect on the reason S&W made the .357 case TOO LONG to fit in (properly made) .38 Special chambers...

Because - Col. D.B. Wesson wasn't about to be content to attempt the development of a "Magnum .38 special cartridge for ordinary revolvers so he set to work on a new gun~!

[jimku]

HighValleyRanch, I gave you a pretty hard time in this thread, and want to apologize.

Once we got it straightened out that you were not claiming to turn 38 Specials into 357 levels to compete head-to-head with 357s, and that what you really meant was that there is some over-lap in power between hot 38 Special loads and lower-powered 357 loads, I think you obviously know what you're doing at a reloading bench and commend your work.

I would like to try a few of those smokers.

And that you say you don't carry those spicy hand-loads for defensive carry, thereby neutering some over-reaching lawyer, tells me you have a good head on your shoulders generally speaking as well.

But since you don't intend them for defensive use, just what niche do you see the useful for? I can see using them to dispatch a feral hog now and then if one doesn't have a more appropriate gun.

[HighValleyRanch]

Jimku, same for me. I give you a hard time sometimes as well!LOL

I carry the HC heavy loads because I live in the woods. Black bears have been spotted close by, big cats, wild boar, and such.
We had a lion kill a deer not more than 100 feet from my front door. All that was left was fresh meat on a skeleton.

Another thing that always is in my mind, is that years ago a neighbor called me and said that my Arabian mare was down in the field injured. When I got down there, she was in the middle of her death throws, and I didn't have my gun with me to put her out of her misery. Luckily she died rather suddenly right there in my arms. So having to put down one of my equines is always on my mind after that.

I've had a horse throw me up in the mountains, and left me on foot, So a rifle in the scabbard would not have done me any good,, so I carry a revolver on my hip when riding.

[USSR]

...you say you don't carry those spicy hand-loads for defensive carry, thereby neutering some over-reaching lawyer, tells me you have a good head on your shoulders generally speaking as well.

So, jimku, those of us who conceal carry using our handloads don't meet your determination of who has a "good head" on his shoulder? Wow, talk about someone being full of himself.

Don

[jimku]

Originally Posted by USSR

So, jimku, those of us who conceal carry using our handloads don't meet your determination of who has a "good head" on his shoulder? Wow, talk about someone being full of himself.

Don

USSR, it is a controversial subject. It isn't me who is "full of himself" it is lawyers who are, and who might accuse you in court of using ammo that is "more lethal" than factory ammo "because you intended to kill somebody" or whatever other outrageous thing/accusation they can attach to it. Many, like me, choose to just not give them the opportunity. I think those who do are just asking for it. And yes, I consider those who don't give them the opportunity to "have a good head on their shoulders", and those who do not so much. If that makes me "full of myself", well then I'm "full of myself". But I just think of myself as "careful". You do as you will.

[jimku]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

Jimku, same for me. I give you a hard time sometimes as well!LOL

I carry the HC heavy loads because I live in the woods. Black bears have been spotted close by, big cats, wild boar, and such.
We had a lion kill a deer not more than 100 feet from my front door. All that was left was fresh meat on a skeleton.

Another thing that always is in my mind, is that years ago a neighbor called me and said that my Arabian mare was down in the field injured. When I got down there, she was in the middle of her death throws, and I didn't have my gun with me to put her out of her misery. Luckily she died rather suddenly right there in my arms. So having to put down one of my equines is always on my mind after that.

I've had a horse throw me up in the mountains, and left me on foot, So a rifle in the scabbard would not have done me any good,, so I carry a revolver on my hip when riding.

All good, sound reasons to me. I am so sorry to hear of your Arabian being so injured. Of course, I am curious as to what injured her.

I was raised on a working ranch in Montana. When I was a kid, my real working cowboy uncle told me "If you ever git throwed, be sure to land on your head 'cause you sure don't want back trouble". The only predatory animals we had to worry about were the legendary sabre-toothed jack rabbit.

[HighValleyRanch]

Not sure, maybe an aneurysm. I had her for over 14 years. She just keeled over and knocked the fence down on the way. Luckily I got to her on the last moments. She was an incredible horse!

[USSR]

USSR, it is a controversial subject. It isn't me who is "full of himself" it is lawyers who are, and who might accuse you in court of using ammo that is "more lethal" than factory ammo "because you intended to kill somebody" or whatever other outrageous thing/accusation they can attach to it. Many, like me, choose to just not give them the opportunity.

Actually, it's not controversial at all, it just keeps being brought up by people who have an unfounded opinion and want to impose it on others. I will ask you, as I've asked others, to please bring up a case where someone was shot in what is called by law enforcement "a good shoot", in which the shooter was found guilty solely on the type of ammunition he used. Just give us xxxxx .vs yyyyy and we will find that you are well founded in your fear of handloaded ammunition for self defense. If you can't do this, then shoot the ammo that you are comfortable with, and leave others to shoot what they are comfortable with without any condescending remarks. Thanks.

Don

[jimku]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

Not sure, maybe an aneurysm. I had her for over 14 years. She just keeled over and knocked the fence down on the way. Luckily I got to her on the last moments. She was an incredible horse!

I had an incredible horse. His name was Joker. He never knew he was broke. He was half registered quarter horse and half prairie pinto ... with just a tiny dash of ornery Shetland thrown in. He was a big horse. When he was just a colt, I was about 10, and I snuck up on him with a lariat when he was sleeping and put it around his neck. He woke up and drug me all over the pasture for a good half hour (off and on) until he finally settled down. Then, I would play with him, putting my arm over him with a little weight, then later with more weight, and so forth until finally I was draping myself over him with my full weight on him. By the time I was sitting on him, he thought it was a game. He loved to run. Never knew the feel of a bit, spurs or quirt. Riding him would wear you out, always keeping good tension on his hackamore reins. Just relax your wrists for a second and he was off. My Dad was a rodeo announcer. The rodeo had quarter-mile races with a big purse, attracting high-strung registered quarter horses from all over the country. I started entering Joker in those races, riding him bareback. He left them in the dust, won race after race until they screamed so loud that Joker was banned from entering.

[bedbugbilly]

Maybe it's just me . . . but you speak of the "lowly 38 Special" . . . and so far, I don't see comparison wit a true "38 Special". I see a comparison with a +P cartridge loaded in a 39 Special +P casing.

I had a LCR 357 - shot one box of 357s out of it and changed to 38 Specials . . . a LCR is fine but not for me. I traded it in on a Smith 36 snub - now I carry the 36 snub sometimes - sometimes a 3" Smith 36 . . . but mostly a Baby Glock. I reload - and with a 36, I shoot my 38 Colt Shorts, 38 Colt Longs and 38 Specials - all three might not go as fast as your 357s and 38 Specials - but all three of my loads will get the job done if need be. Maybe I'm just getting old . . . or maybe I just saw too many gunshot wounds and fatal shootings from calibers of many sizes when I worked ambulance and fire/rescue. In the end, it's all about practice and placement - the individual on the receiving end will have no idea of whether the .358 slug is traveling at 750 fps or 1,200 fps - and a snub is designed for up close work and not for target shooting. Others may disagree and that's fine - that's everyone's right to do so.

[jimku]

Originally Posted by USSR

[SIZE="3"]If you can't do this, then shoot the ammo that you are comfortable with, and leave others to shoot what they are comfortable with without any condescending remarks. Thanks.

Well, what some call "condescending" others call "just common sense". You know what I will shoot, and you can shoot whatever you like. I am not "imposing" anything on anybody at all, much less you. If you choose to regard my choice of words as condescending, that's your problem, it isn't mine. People have different points of view and different opinions. Get used to it. Please. Instead of trying to impose yours on everybody else. My words were meant to compliment HighValleyRanch, not to offend you.

[TX Nimrod]

Opinions, opinions, opinions. We all have them and they usually cause debate and even arguments.....

Yep, just see where this thread has gone. I won’t go so far as to call the OP a troll - but what did he really expect?


.

[USSR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by USSR View Post
I will ask you, as I've asked others, to please bring up a case where someone was shot in what is called by law enforcement "a good shoot", in which the shooter was found guilty solely on the type of ammunition he used. Just give us xxxxx .vs yyyyy and we will find that you are well founded in your fear of handloaded ammunition for self defense. If you can't do this, then shoot the ammo that you are comfortable with, and leave others to shoot what they are comfortable with without any condescending remarks. Thanks.

Well, what some call "condescending" others call "just common sense". You know what I will shoot, and you can shoot whatever you like. I am not "imposing" anything on anybody at all, much less you. If you choose to regard my choice of words as condescending, that's your problem, it isn't mine.

I will ask you once again, please tell us the legal case that underlies your so called "common sense". Please enlighten us. Thanks.

Don

[jimku]

Originally Posted by USSR

Quote:
Originally Posted by USSR View Post
I will ask you, as I've asked others, to please bring up a case where someone was shot in what is called by law enforcement "a good shoot", in which the shooter was found guilty solely on the type of ammunition he used. Just give us xxxxx .vs yyyyy and we will find that you are well founded in your fear of handloaded ammunition for self defense. If you can't do this, then shoot the ammo that you are comfortable with, and leave others to shoot what they are comfortable with without any condescending remarks. Thanks.



I will ask you once again, please tell us the legal case that underlies your so called "common sense". Please enlighten us. Thanks.

Don

..

[HighValleyRanch]

I won’t go so far as to call the OP a troll - but what did he really expect

I simply put forth data and information showing that .38 special +P can match the low to midrange of .357 magnum. That is a fact as shown by what I presented. No other opinions presented showed that was not the case. It's not a matter of opinions.

I already stated the reason for doing this.
1. Some people only own a .38 special that can handle +P and they might not know this fact.
2. Some people think that ANY .357 is always hotter than any .38 special loads including .38 +P. This is to educate them otherwise.
3. Some people buy a .357 magnum and never shoot the full house loads and might like to know that they could have purchase the lighter weight .38 special version and still gotten the results that they needed.

Don't give me your opinion, give me facts and data that prove otherwise.

[44 AMP]

Discussion of the legal pitfalls of reloaded ammo has been done here before, more than once. Do a search, see what's been covered and if you have questions or comments start a new thread of your own.

its a bit too off topic for this thread.

[jimku]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Discussion of the legal pitfalls of reloaded ammo has been done here before, more than once. Do a search, see what's been covered and if you have questions or comments start a new thread of your own.

its a bit too off topic for this thread.

THANK YOU