This is why I carry a REVOLVER!

[AK103K]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

LOL, anyone can create situations where either can fail.
I practice revolver reloads with one hand just like my semi's.
I shoot booth, and had failures with both. Yes, I had had malfunctions that could not be cleared with a semi. Malfunction drills do not cover all that can go wrong, just like any other mechanical device.

It's too much a generalization to say that malfunctions in semi's can be fixed on the spot and ones in revolvers cannot.

Not really. Autos generally are right back in action with little effort, where revolvers generally are not. Just the nature of the beast.

At least thats been my experience with the revolvers over the years, and Ive experienced most of the stoppages they can have too. More than anything, its just a learning experience living with them and shooting them enough and learning things as you go. A number of those problems can be mitigated because of that too, if youre paying attention.

And realistically, malfunctions with either, really arent all that common, but you do need to be ready for them and know what to expect.

[agtman]

If your revolver 'jams' in a gunfight because the cylinder locked-up, there are no similar instantaneous remedial drills

See post 5 above. Got the malfunction clear and "back into the fight" in a few seconds.

Correcting a malf under gun-gamer "stress," and correcting one under the stress of being shot at on the street or in your home, are waaay different psychological environments.

Anyone can look cool and collected on the one-way firing range. Just ask any of the guys who show up at the my club's range on a lazy Sunday afternoon where they play 'Sonny Crockett' against paper bad guys for an hour or so.

And that's aside from the quite possible variable where your hand/arm takes a hit in the fight (remember, your assailant's got a plan too).

Now you're likely on the ground bleeding, and any remedial action on your gun will have to be done one-handed.

[HighValleyRanch]

Same is true for a semi clearance between on the range and under fire.

Ever have a squibb in your semi, or a round get stuck in the chamber, or a magazine base plate give way.
Tell me you are going to get those cleared under fire.
Supposed you get shot in the head. Now what are you going to do? You can make up a scenario, so I can too.

[44 AMP]

Not really. Autos generally are right back in action with little effort, where revolvers generally are not. Just the nature of the beast.

gotta love "generally"...

Yep. its the nature of the beast. Semis generally choke and stop due to things that a revolver generally ignores.

And semis generally choke and stop many, many, many times more frequently than revolvers, generally...

Generally, anything made by man can screw up, and generally has to someone, somewhere, sometime.

Ever stop to wonder why there is a "Tap Rack Bang" drill in the first place??
could it be because its needed???

[AK103K]

Originally Posted by agtman

Anyone can look cool and collected on the one-way firing range. Just ask any of the guys who show up at the my club's range on a lazy Sunday afternoon where they play 'Sonny Crockett' against paper bad guys for an hour or so.

Hey, at least they are trying.

Id be willing to bet, thats more than most do.

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

Same is true for a semi clearance between on the range and under fire.

Ever have a squibb in your semi, or a round get stuck in the chamber, or a magazine base plate give way.
Tell me you are going to get those cleared under fire.
Supposed you get shot in the head. Now what are you going to do? You can make up a scenario, so I can too.

This isnt about making up scenarios. Its about learning to deal with things that can happen, and maybe, if youre smart, some things you might want to address, so you reduce the possibility that they do.

A squib with either shuts you both down.

The mag blowing out? Push the mag release and reload.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

gotta love "generally"...

Yep. its the nature of the beast. Semis generally choke and stop due to things that a revolver generally ignores.

And semis generally choke and stop many, many, many times more frequently than revolvers, generally...

Generally, anything made by man can screw up, and generally has to someone, somewhere, sometime.

Ever stop to wonder why there is a "Tap Rack Bang" drill in the first place??
could it be because its needed???

Hey, I was trying to be nice to the revolvers.

Ever notice they dont seem to have a drill to get them back up and running?

Everything stops sooner or later. If youre carrying one or the other, because someone told you it wont, I would suggest you rethink it.

With either, you should be practicing getting them back in the game. At the very least, understand what can go wrong and learn, and be ready to address it. Thats just common sense gun handling as far as Im concerned.

My experience has been, with an auto, its a TRB, or maybe a TRRB, depending on how bad things are. That "generally" has always got the gun back into action in the moment.

Over the years, Ive had a few squibs with them, but at least the autos give you a clue, and you get a heads up. The revolvers dont, if the round makes it into the barrel. Of course, with either, you need to be paying attention too.

Ive also had a couple of rounds that were bad, and would not chamber, and would not extract once they got into the chamber. Thats really about the only thing (other than a squib) that might really cause you grief, and depending on your gun, may or may not be easy to remedy. Things like 1911's, and similar, with a factory spring, are pretty easy. Anything that wont allow you to jam the lower portion of the front of the slide into something, figure most things with a captured RSA, its a bit different, but can still be done. Its a lot easier if you know whats wrong and youve done it before to know.

With the revolvers, with most things, its simply another gun, assuming you brought one. That, or the "killer rabbit" drill.

[agtman]

Ever stop to wonder why there is a "Tap Rack Bang" drill in the first place?? could it be because its needed???

LOL!

Ah, no. Let's see ...

How many times in your vast gun-fighting experience has the 'T-R-B'/malf-clearing procedure actually worked on a revolver? Hmmmmm?

Precisely zero.

That's because the T-R-B drill is a known, immediately corrective action that's been proven to work for semi-autos and puts them back in the fight.

There's no corresponding immediate-action remedy that gets a locked-up revolver unlocked and back in the fight without a trip to the nearest gunsmith.

At that point, your end of the fight is over, ... unless you were wise enough to have holstered up with a second gun.

[JohnKSa]

Maybe it's only in the reporting, but guns seem to jam up an awful lot when fired under stress and pressure.

Yes they do.

1. People don't get a good grip on them. They might be firing them one-handed while they normally fire them with two hands at the range. All autopistols are sensitive to grip. Some from limp-wristing, but all of them can be induced to malfunction if you get your fingers in the wrong place while firing. You can accidentally drop a mag, put the safety on, push up on the slide release, foul the slide, etc.

2. I think a lot of people don't really bother to test them much, if at all. So when they need them, they're firing a gun they haven't fired much, it at all, and using ammo they haven't tested much, if at all.

Practice with your self-defense firearms. Shoot them one-handed. Shoot them with your self-defense ammo. Practice at home getting a good grip on the gun when you pick it up or when you draw.

[l.cutler]

Both platforms have there benefits and there shortcomings. The important thing is to to know whatever you decide to use inside and out, maintain it properly and train in every conceivable scenario you can think of. As far as the tap, rack , bang, it is a usually effective routine for a failure to fire in a semi auto caused by a bad round or failure to feed. I don't think it is fair to say there is no comparable procedure in a locked up revolver though, because it won't work in a locked up semi either. The response to a failure to fire in a revolver is to just pull the trigger again. Both are good, but a mechanical failure in either will probably put it out of commission. Clean, maintain and do everything you can to keep it from happening!

[44 AMP]

That's because the T-R-B drill is a known, immediately corrective action that's been proven to work for semi-autos and puts them back in the fight.

A) the T-R-B is only immediately corrective with certain malfunctions, the minor ones. Get something major go wrong, its usually not the fix.

B) Pointing out that there's nothing comparable for a revolver misses my point, which was that the failure drill is needed, because of the frequency of failures in a semi auto, which doesn't happen in revolvers, generally.

Its fine to point out that a major malfunction stops a revolver cold. Just be sure to point out that a major malfunction also stops a semi auto cold. And that the minor malfunctions that the TRB drill usually fixes seldom stop (or even happen to) a revolver.

Whether or not the failure drill works depends on the malfunction. Whether or not a revolver jams, depends on the malfunction. ALL malfunctions are not equal. Some are even the user's fault. Pick one your favorite action type handles well and I can pick one that will stop it dead. IT all depends on what actually happens.

Here's an example with no TRB fix, its extreme rarity makes it an extreme example, and in half a century of pistol shooting, I've only had it happen to me once, but it DID happen, complete case head separation. With the body of the case in the chamber and the head torn off, that semi auto was done until after a trip to the gunsmith.

The thought occurred to me, had exactly the same thing happened in a revolver, I'd still have 5 useable chambers....

[jimku]

The biggest reason people end up shot is that they were dumb enough to pick Doc Holiday as their huckleberry and that caused an operator malfunction.
https://youtu.be/R8OWNspU_yE

[1911_Hardball]

Originally Posted by agtman

There's no corresponding immediate-action remedy that gets a locked-up revolver unlocked and back in the fight without a trip to the nearest gunsmith.

Um, actually, there is.
Check to see if ejector rod is screwed in completely, open cylinder, dump ammo and sweep for debris under the star with your finger, reload (with different ammo), resume gunfight. It takes a second or two longer that trb, but there's no trip to the gunsmith involved and the procedure was commonly taught.
Most people were never formally trained just aren't aware of it because it's so rarely needed.

[AK103K]

Originally Posted by 1911_Hardball

Um, actually, there is.
Check to see if ejector rod is screwed in completely, open cylinder, dump ammo and sweep for debris under the star with your finger, reload (with different ammo), resume gunfight. It takes a second or two longer that trb, but there's no trip to the gunsmith involved and the procedure was commonly taught.
Most people were never formally trained just aren't aware of it because it's so rarely needed.

That defineitly works. The only problem there is, if the ejector rod has backed out, and its shrouded, your probably done right there, as you wont be opening the cylinder to go any further, and you wont likely be getting it backed down to clear, with just your fingers.

I think one of the biggest issues I see with the revolvers is how people reload them, and most dont understand theres even a problem there.

Most of it is due to where and how they are shooting, and they seem to be more interested in recovering the brass, than anything else, and not really taking advantage of a training opportunity.

You should be dumping the brass with the muzzle up, and a smart rap on the ejection rod, and let the brass fall. That pretty much eliminates crap getting under the extractor star, which, even just a tiny bit, can cause you all sorts of misery.

Ejecting the rounds muzzle down, is slow, awkward, and allows any unburnt powder and other crap still in the case, to fall under the star as it comes out of the cylinder.

If youre doing the later, sooner or later, and especially if you arent thorough with you cleaning, the trigger/cylinder will start becoming hard to cycle, and even binding and the cylinder becomes hard to close, and even not lock up.

[1911_Hardball]

Originally Posted by AK103K

That defineitly works. The only problem there is, if the ejector rod has backed out, and its shrouded, your probably done right there, as you wont be opening the cylinder to go any further, and you wont likely be getting it backed down to clear, with just your fingers.

As a practical matter, when under fire, you're right. You're probably out of service. However, if you have a shrouded ejector rod it is possible to screw it back in by wedging something between the rod and the housing, pulling the hammer back far enough to disengage the cylinder stop and rotating the cylinder.
Are you going to be able to do that in the middle of a gunfight? Maybe, maybe not, but the idea commonly shared by those who have only a casual familiarity with revolvers that no malfunction can be cleared in the field and requires the attention of a gunsmith just isn't accurate.
Debris under the star is the only thing that has ever caused a seize up for me. It's happened a few times over the years but never in a clean gun in the first 50-100 rounds. It's only happened during a lengthy range session.

[1911_Hardball]

.............................

[l.cutler]

Tap, rack Bang is a first response to a failure to fire and is only effective for the most basic problem, bad round, failure to feed something of that sort, it is not going to help a major issue such as a locked up slide. The first response to a failure to fire in a revolver for a basic problem such as a bad round is to pull the trigger again. Now tell me, which is quicker, tap rack bang, or pull the trigger? There is no quick action to fix a major issue with a revolver, just as there is no quick action to fix a major issue with a semi automatic. No reason one has to be better than the other, totally different mechanisms but either one should serve well.

[jimku]

I say there is ony one thing to do if either type of gun malfunctions in a firefight ... forget about it instantly and go for your backup piece.
Don't have a backup piece? Have "I screwed up" engraved on your tombstone.

But the reality is that in an actual firefight, by the time you even realize your gun has malfunctioned you will most likely be shot a couple times.
I just hope and pray I am never there to find out.

[1911_Hardball]

Originally Posted by jimku

I say there is ony one thing to do if either type of gun malfunctions in a firefight ... forget about it instantly and go for your backup piece.
Don't have a backup piece? Have "I screwed up" engraved on your tombstone.

But the reality is that in an actual firefight, by the time you even realize your gun has malfunctioned you will most likely be shot a couple times.
I just hope and pray I am never there to find out.

That is, in reality, the most likely scenario.

[44 AMP]

That is, in reality, the most likely scenario.

I'd say its likely, if you're facing a Terminator class unstoppable killing machine who never has any problems of his own.

Looking at real world reports people like that do exist, but the odds of meeting one are (I think) essentially incalculable. Its much much more common to see reports where the bad guys also had problems of their own.

Can you count on that saving you? No. SO, plan for the worst, hope for the best and one is seldom disappointed.

That being said, I think emphasis on a second or two or fractions of second saying they will get you killed is going a bit over the top. They could be vital, but assuming that they are always life and death vital is too much for me.

Of course that's just my totally unqualified opinion. Last time I was in a gun fight was almost 50 years ago, and my "defensive weapon" was a belt fed .30 cal.

[jimku]

Well, my plan is to practice the very best situational awareness I can, keep it well honed and always on my mind, try my very best to stay out of places where any kind of protest or riot could erupt, always have a backup gun that is just as quick to access as my main gun, keep both of them properly maintained, cleaned and lubed and hope I never have to find out. One thing I do know: I can easily empty any handgun I own in under two seconds. I can only assume that any bad guy with a gun can do the same. So if I am ever in an active firefight, and my gun malfunctions, odds are very high that I will be dead. Odds aren't the best even if it doesn't malfunction. And that's my totally unqualified opinion.

[dannyb]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Yes they do.

1. People don't get a good grip on them. They might be firing them one-handed while they normally fire them with two hands at the range. All autopistols are sensitive to grip. Some from limp-wristing, but all of them can be induced to malfunction if you get your fingers in the wrong place while firing. You can accidentally drop a mag, put the safety on, push up on the slide release, foul the slide, etc.

2. I think a lot of people don't really bother to test them much, if at all. So when they need them, they're firing a gun they haven't fired much, it at all, and using ammo they haven't tested much, if at all.

Practice with your self-defense firearms. Shoot them one-handed. Shoot them with your self-defense ammo. Practice at home getting a good grip on the gun when you pick it up or when you draw.

I started with bullseye shooting, so shooting 1-handed DA has not been a problem for me. I also did PPC competition back when dinosaurs walked the earth, so shooting 1-hand strong hand-weak hand has also not been a problem. I still practice this. The advantage to me in shooting one handed is that I expose less of myself if shooting from barricade.

[AK103K]

Kind of goes over whats been discussed here already, but with some visual clarification.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edh-OrgROD4

[BondoBob]

This situation is the best answer to those 2nd amendment haters question "why do you gun people have to have several guns, why isn't one enough?". This is why. That guy would have been better off if there were other handguns nearby rather than grabbing the rifle.

That's why people train off hand/weak hand. Have a semi in the right hand and a revolver in the left. Double your chances.

[Webleymkv]

In my experience, the three most common reasons for a semi-automatic firearm to malfunction are user error, incompatible ammunition, and worn/damaged magazines. User error would include issues like limp wristing, forgetting to chamber a round, failure to disengage a safety, or improper loading. Incompatible ammunition could include that which is out-of-spec (too long or too short OAL), poor quality (misfire, hangfire, excessively dirty), not loaded to appropriate power level for the firearm, or using a projectile shape incompatible with the gun's feed cycle. Worn/damaged magazines is pretty self-explanatory and would include issues like weak mag springs, bent feed lips, worn mag catch notches, and broken followers or baseplates. Fortunately, most of these problems are usually fairly easy to fix assuming one has access to spare magazines, better ammunition, and/or can correctly diagnose and remedy the user error in a timely manner.

If a revolver fails, however, it's more often due to mechanical issues like parts breakage, being excessively filthy, or ammunition of extremely poor quality/grossly out-of-spec (backed out primers, overpressure, split cases, squibs, etc), and these usually cannot be remediated without the use of tools and/or a gunsmith. In my experience, while issues like powder residue under the extractor and backed out ejector rods can cause problems, they usually don't occur without warning nor do they come on suddenly enough to prevent a hitherto clean and well-maintained revolver from successfully firing the contents of its cylinder. Usually, when such issues arise, they start with signs and symptoms like a stiff, gritty trigger pull and/or the cylinder requiring more force than usual to open. It's usually only when these signs are ignored and the shooter continues to fire the revolver for extended range sessions that things progress to rendering the revolver completely inoperable.

The problem is that people assume that the catastrophic malfunctions that might render a revolver inoperable are equally or more likely to occur as compared to those which are easily remediated in a semi-auto. It is also assumed that semi-autos are completely immune from issues that are not user-remediable, this has not been the case in my experience. I have had exactly one instance in a revolver (broken firing pin) and one instance in a semi-auto (out-of-spec cartridge stuck in the chamber) than rendered the gun completely inoperable and was not easily user-remediable. I've also had issues with revolver (backed out primers) that I was able to quickly and easily remediate.

I hypothesize that some focus so much on revolvers' supposed "unreliability" because their malfunctions are not easily remediable and thus more memorable. A feed malfunction or misfire in a semi-auto is little more than an annoyance at the range because it is easily remediable and does not bring an immediate end to the range session. Thus, unless one keeps detailed logs of their shooting (which I'd venture to guess most don't) an easily remediated malfunction is more likely to be forgotten than one which requires a trip to the gunsmith or back to the factory. Semi-auto malfunctions which aren't easily remediated are usually remembered just as well and become just as infamous as revolver breakages (ala CZ-75 broken slide stops, Officer's Model 1911's sending their recoil springs downrange, and Glock KB's).

Thus, I have to say that in my experience, while a semi-auto's malfunction is likely to be user-remediable, they are not universally so and a quality revolver is less likely to have a malfunction in the first place.

[RKG]

This is a debate that will never end, of the sort I usually avoid. Despite knowing better, I offer the following, which is based on many decades of owning, shooting, and servicing both revolvers and autos.

Autos have more failure modes than autos, some of which are not susceptible of prevention though ordinary maintenance. That said, if either is properly maintained, the failure frequency of either can be sustained at a low enough level to make them a reliable defense mechanism.

Pick whichever you shoot better and learn how to maintain it.

[OldCranky1]

I've had auto's jam, not all, but I also watched my brother take his brand new Taurus 605 revolver and fire two rounds and it lock up tight, we had to send it back to the factory for repairs so a revolver will as well. Lubrication, cleaning and at least a hundred rounds through one firing in different patterns, single shot, double tap, three quickly, etc... then I feel comfortable to carry the piece.