New Product Idea, Doubling Shotgun Mag Capacity

talonosi · November 11, 2009, 07:03 PM

I've designed a device for pump action shotguns that provides some pretty great functionality. But I'm wondering what the marketability of such an item would be and what your opinions would be. Please answer these 4 questions and if you could let me know if you're in law enforcement. Thanks

1. Would a product doubling the magazine capacity of a pump action shotgun be a valuable asset to the law enforcement world and people interested in home defense? Why?

2. Would the ability to load the device with two types of ammunition, for example, buckshot and slugs, and the ability to choose which ammunition is chambered each time you work the slide be useful? How so and what applications might it have in the LE and home defense world?

3. Do you think the demand would be high for such a product priced under $150? (keep in mind this is an accessory for an existing shotgun, any brand of pump action)

4. Would the added weight of 5-7 shotgun shells cause usability issues for the device? (the device weight is minimal)

perazzimx14 · November 11, 2009, 07:45 PM

Magazine extensions are already avaliable. Granted you don't have the ability to choose between shells with a traditional extension, but........in a defence situation all I would be worried about is are there shells in the gun. Trying to defend you ground, stay secure, stay alive and choosing what style of shell t shoot at the bad guy(s) is to much information to process. In a defence situation the "KISS" principal is best.

talonosi · November 11, 2009, 07:49 PM

You're right, magazine extensions are already available. but this accessory is different from a magazine extension. refer to question 2. thanks

colostomyclown · November 11, 2009, 07:52 PM

Sounds cool if it could be used reliably. I imagine demand would be high all around, but most probably couldn't/wouldn't run the gun optimally with the added weight. I'm not in LE, but I can tell you right now you'd have a pretty uphill battle as far as selling LE on the idea as they're very slow usually to adopt new technology and will definitely put the equipment through the ringer in the process. There's no such thing as too much ammo on hand, and selecting a slug or buck or nonlethal on the fly would definitely be nice, but like I said before, the added weight would be immense. If it was a quality product and looked good I'd probably go with it on my gun as I am a pretty big guy and the weight doesn't bother me much. But later in life, it probably would. Not everyones the same.

talonosi · November 11, 2009, 07:53 PM

Thanks, I can see an application for it. and there is no question that reliability would be key

fisherman66 · November 11, 2009, 07:58 PM

Consider the liability of having two different types of ammo and explaining why you choose one over.

I'm curious about the design, but I wouldn't be interested in purchasing such a product. I suspect law enforcement might have some concerns too. I'm not in law enforcement, so take it at face value. Still, I'd like to understand the mechanics.

oneounceload · November 11, 2009, 08:12 PM

Playing devil's advocate for a moment:

IF the device is positioned under the barrel, then the forward weight would really throw off any semblance of balance, making the gun extremely nose-heavy and unwieldy. In a stress-filled moment, wondering about what shell to use could cause hesitation and result in a bad situation.

talonosi · November 11, 2009, 08:18 PM

your right, the ability to choose ammo could be an issue in an HD situation. i'm seeing that functionality for LE and Military. here is an example that a LEO gave me the other day. you traditionally have buckshot loaded, but you could quickly transition to a slug when greater range or penetration power was needed. he have the example of stopping a vehicle or shooting through cover.

Crosshair · November 11, 2009, 08:29 PM

Quote:

selecting a slug or buck or nonlethal on the fly would definitely be nice

Mixing lethal and non-lethal ammo is a BAD idea.

Though it would work for choosing between rubber buckshot rounds and beanbag rounds

talonosi · November 11, 2009, 08:36 PM

the potential risks of lethal and non lethal round would be large. but as you mentioned you could use it for various non lethal rounds to provide different functionality. your right about the added weight being a potential issue. and for potential buyers they would have to gauge weather or not the benefits out way the costs. if mounted on an 18.5 inch barrel (or shorter for LE) I think you the handling characteristics would be more similar to say a 20 inch 8 shot mossberg.

johnwilliamson062 · November 11, 2009, 08:52 PM

isn't there a 4 tube shotgun on the market?

talonosi · November 11, 2009, 09:01 PM

good question, I'm not sure if there is. one good thing is that it can be designed to work with any pump action without permanent modification

Newton24b · November 12, 2009, 12:04 AM

i believe winchester made a 4 barreled shotgun for the gov during the nam era. wanst in use for long for osme reason.

a solution for the capacity problem has been found. aquila mini shells and an extended magazine tube.

ADB · November 12, 2009, 01:35 AM

I could see this as an option for hunters--some might see a benefit in being able to choose between buckshot and slugs, or birdshot and buckshot, etcetera.

You say under $150. Are we talking $149? That's quite a chunk of change to a casual shotgun user, but little or nothing to law enforcement/militart.

Bill DeShivs · November 12, 2009, 02:33 AM

It's not hard to add a box magazine to a pump gun, leaving the stock magazine in place. I thought about it years ago, but never bothered with making one. Don't know if there is a market. It depends on the price.

davlandrum · November 12, 2009, 10:42 AM

Quote:

I could see this as an option for hunters--some might see a benefit in being able to choose between buckshot and slugs, or birdshot and buckshot, etcetera.

That was my immeadiate thought - slugs for deer hunting, shot to pop a grouse or some quail along the way...

Technosavant · November 12, 2009, 10:54 AM

Ability to swap between slugs and buckshot might be nice, but it would likely be more of interest to LEO/mil users than to home users. Sure, many folks would buy one thinking it's great, but once you start tacking on an extra 5-7 rounds, you've REALLY increased the weight of the weapon (loading 6 rounds of 00 buck into my 870 tactical is quite noticeable, so doubling that would be as well). Not knowing anything about your design, it would be less a hindrance if it were able to concentrate the weight in the middle of the gun (like a box magazine).

The only reason for HD I could see wanting to go from buckshot to slugs would be for barrier penetration, and I figure that more than a half second spent swapping over would mean I might as well just use my Saiga 12 and swap out mags or reach for a rifle.

Carne Frio · November 12, 2009, 11:24 AM

If it was reliable, yes, I would buy one.

ADB · November 12, 2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Sure, many folks would buy one thinking it's great, but once you start tacking on an extra 5-7 rounds, you've REALLY increased the weight of the weapon (loading 6 rounds of 00 buck into my 870 tactical is quite noticeable, so doubling that would be as well).

But think of it this way--how much extra ammo are you carrying on your person? My 12 gauge has either 5+1 or 4+1 capacity depending on whether I use standard or 3 inch shells. But I've always got 5 more shells tucked into a holder on the buttstock. So I'm still carrying that weight, but it's not available to me directly in the mag. Even if you don't have a buttstock holder, how many people are going to not be carrying any additional rounds on their person?

Zak Smith · November 13, 2009, 02:10 AM

Why limit to 2?

jaguarxk120 · November 13, 2009, 09:18 AM

Does any mfgr. make a belt fed shotgun?? Just have a side mounted box magizine with 50 rounds in it

SeekHer · November 13, 2009, 04:01 PM

Problem with hunting between slugs and shot is that most upland bird seasons are long over by the time big game season starts so you may end up in jail/fines/guns and vehicle confiscated...Also, depending on state there is a limit to the number of shells you can have in your shotgun while game hunting--most are 5 and the Federal Migratory Bird limit is 2+1 and most states follow that for upland birds as well...

As indicated there is box magazines available for guns that keeps the centre of gravity "between the hands" where it's supposed to be and if you want more rounds then that, there is always the drum magazine(s) from IIRC 6 to 25 shells...

As indicated in the photo, a multi tube apparatus is available and from what I've read they are bloody barrel heavy and a true bitch to use...there is also a different manufacturer's model called XRail about to be released...Maybe the extra weight forward would help with muzzle climb and next shot recovery in a firefight but having to hold that "at ready" would be Hell...Try taping two 5 round boxed to the end on your barrel and holding that on target for any length of time...

I could see a viable resource for LEO/military for your product especially for the <$150 price tag...bean or rubber bullet, tear gas or pepper spray or Mace, buckshot or slug, flare or smoke or all of the above...

jaguarxk120 -- The US Military for the Dept. of Justice or Corrections experimented with a belt fed machine gun during--or just prior to--WW2 primarily for prison use--walls & guard towers, but dropped it after awhile for IIRC too slow of a cyclic rate, extremely innaccurate and of course very limited range...Looked somewhat like a Lewis Gun without the drum on top and was tripod mounted...

They also tried a Gatling Gun version and with the same results, too short range, too wide spread a pattern, can't really be aimed...Inside a building or corridor defense it would be devastating...

8 pellets per round, 150 rd per minute rate of fire = 1,200 unaimed pellets in the air per minute...M1928 Thompson sub machine gun, 700 RPM of fairly accurate fire to 100 yds, or a Lewis Gun @ 550 RPM or either Brownings M1917A1 (water cooled) 450-600 RPM or the M1919A4 (air cooled) 400-500 RPM of quite accurate fire to 2,000 yds...

Willie Lowman · November 13, 2009, 05:32 PM

Sounds like a solution looking for a problem to me.

Crosshair · November 13, 2009, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Does any mfgr. make a belt fed shotgun??

Yes. Don't know if he is going to put into production. Still have to work out some reliability issues.

YouTube: Belt Fed 12 gauge

Dave McC · November 13, 2009, 09:11 PM

I have it on good report that Aberdeen Proving Grounds in the 50s and 60s had a project of two full auto, belt fed 12 gauges coaxially mounted to a 9mm subgun loaded with tracers only. The buzzgun used was an old Sten because they had a couple.

Ambush buster for APCs and trucks. Damage with 00 was tremendous, and they did try mix loading with alternating buck and slugs. One early sabot slug
was developed for better armor piercing capabilities.

Then they developed the Claymore mine and reactive armor and decided those was better options.

However, on a shoulder weapon, belt feed can be tricky, as anyone who ever tried to keep an M60 firing while being moved can relate.

And as Mr Awerback says, no shotgun magazine is ever big enough.

Best to learn how to reload fast and effectively.

When you can run the gun, you can be amazingly effectively with a single shot...

November 11, 2009, 07:03 PM	#1
talonosi Junior Member Join Date: November 11, 2009 Posts: 6	New Product Idea, Doubling Shotgun Mag Capacity I've designed a device for pump action shotguns that provides some pretty great functionality. But I'm wondering what the marketability of such an item would be and what your opinions would be. Please answer these 4 questions and if you could let me know if you're in law enforcement. Thanks 1. Would a product doubling the magazine capacity of a pump action shotgun be a valuable asset to the law enforcement world and people interested in home defense? Why? 2. Would the ability to load the device with two types of ammunition, for example, buckshot and slugs, and the ability to choose which ammunition is chambered each time you work the slide be useful? How so and what applications might it have in the LE and home defense world? 3. Do you think the demand would be high for such a product priced under $150? (keep in mind this is an accessory for an existing shotgun, any brand of pump action) 4. Would the added weight of 5-7 shotgun shells cause usability issues for the device? (the device weight is minimal)

November 11, 2009, 07:45 PM	#2
perazzimx14 Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2007 Posts: 130	Magazine extensions are already avaliable. Granted you don't have the ability to choose between shells with a traditional extension, but........in a defence situation all I would be worried about is are there shells in the gun. Trying to defend you ground, stay secure, stay alive and choosing what style of shell t shoot at the bad guy(s) is to much information to process. In a defence situation the "KISS" principal is best. Last edited by perazzimx14; November 11, 2009 at 07:54 PM.

November 11, 2009, 07:58 PM	#6
fisherman66 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2005 Location: The Woodlands TX Posts: 4,679	Consider the liability of having two different types of ammo and explaining why you choose one over. I'm curious about the design, but I wouldn't be interested in purchasing such a product. I suspect law enforcement might have some concerns too. I'm not in law enforcement, so take it at face value. Still, I'd like to understand the mechanics. __________________ la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!

November 12, 2009, 02:33 AM	#15
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	It's not hard to add a box magazine to a pump gun, leaving the stock magazine in place. I thought about it years ago, but never bothered with making one. Don't know if there is a market. It depends on the price. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

November 13, 2009, 02:10 AM	#20
Zak Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 1999 Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA Posts: 2,682	Why limit to 2? __________________ Zak Smith . DEMIGOD LLC . THUNDER BEAST ARMS CORP . COLORADO MULTI-GUN *My PM inbox full? Send e-mail instead.*

November 11, 2009, 07:49 PM	#3
talonosi Junior Member Join Date: November 11, 2009 Posts: 6	You're right, magazine extensions are already available. but this accessory is different from a magazine extension. refer to question 2. thanks

November 11, 2009, 07:52 PM	#4
colostomyclown Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2009 Posts: 613	Sounds cool if it could be used reliably. I imagine demand would be high all around, but most probably couldn't/wouldn't run the gun optimally with the added weight. I'm not in LE, but I can tell you right now you'd have a pretty uphill battle as far as selling LE on the idea as they're very slow usually to adopt new technology and will definitely put the equipment through the ringer in the process. There's no such thing as too much ammo on hand, and selecting a slug or buck or nonlethal on the fly would definitely be nice, but like I said before, the added weight would be immense. If it was a quality product and looked good I'd probably go with it on my gun as I am a pretty big guy and the weight doesn't bother me much. But later in life, it probably would. Not everyones the same.

November 11, 2009, 07:53 PM	#5
talonosi Junior Member Join Date: November 11, 2009 Posts: 6	Thanks, I can see an application for it. and there is no question that reliability would be key

November 11, 2009, 08:12 PM	#7
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Playing devil's advocate for a moment: IF the device is positioned under the barrel, then the forward weight would really throw off any semblance of balance, making the gun extremely nose-heavy and unwieldy. In a stress-filled moment, wondering about what shell to use could cause hesitation and result in a bad situation.

November 11, 2009, 08:18 PM	#8
talonosi Junior Member Join Date: November 11, 2009 Posts: 6	your right, the ability to choose ammo could be an issue in an HD situation. i'm seeing that functionality for LE and Military. here is an example that a LEO gave me the other day. you traditionally have buckshot loaded, but you could quickly transition to a slug when greater range or penetration power was needed. he have the example of stopping a vehicle or shooting through cover.

November 11, 2009, 08:36 PM	#10
talonosi Junior Member Join Date: November 11, 2009 Posts: 6	the potential risks of lethal and non lethal round would be large. but as you mentioned you could use it for various non lethal rounds to provide different functionality. your right about the added weight being a potential issue. and for potential buyers they would have to gauge weather or not the benefits out way the costs. if mounted on an 18.5 inch barrel (or shorter for LE) I think you the handling characteristics would be more similar to say a 20 inch 8 shot mossberg.

November 11, 2009, 08:52 PM	#11
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	isn't there a 4 tube shotgun on the market?

November 11, 2009, 09:01 PM	#12
talonosi Junior Member Join Date: November 11, 2009 Posts: 6	good question, I'm not sure if there is. one good thing is that it can be designed to work with any pump action without permanent modification

November 12, 2009, 12:04 AM	#13
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	i believe winchester made a 4 barreled shotgun for the gov during the nam era. wanst in use for long for osme reason. a solution for the capacity problem has been found. aquila mini shells and an extended magazine tube.

November 12, 2009, 01:35 AM	#14
ADB Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2009 Posts: 399	I could see this as an option for hunters--some might see a benefit in being able to choose between buckshot and slugs, or birdshot and buckshot, etcetera. You say under $150. Are we talking $149? That's quite a chunk of change to a casual shotgun user, but little or nothing to law enforcement/militart.

November 12, 2009, 10:54 AM	#17
Technosavant Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 4,040	Ability to swap between slugs and buckshot might be nice, but it would likely be more of interest to LEO/mil users than to home users. Sure, many folks would buy one thinking it's great, but once you start tacking on an extra 5-7 rounds, you've REALLY increased the weight of the weapon (loading 6 rounds of 00 buck into my 870 tactical is quite noticeable, so doubling that would be as well). Not knowing anything about your design, it would be less a hindrance if it were able to concentrate the weight in the middle of the gun (like a box magazine). The only reason for HD I could see wanting to go from buckshot to slugs would be for barrier penetration, and I figure that more than a half second spent swapping over would mean I might as well just use my Saiga 12 and swap out mags or reach for a rifle.

November 12, 2009, 11:24 AM	#18
Carne Frio Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2008 Location: Near Fairbanks Alaska Posts: 829	If it was reliable, yes, I would buy one.

November 13, 2009, 09:18 AM	#21
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,619	Does any mfgr. make a belt fed shotgun?? Just have a side mounted box magizine with 50 rounds in it

November 13, 2009, 04:01 PM	#22
SeekHer Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2005 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 295	Problem with hunting between slugs and shot is that most upland bird seasons are long over by the time big game season starts so you may end up in jail/fines/guns and vehicle confiscated...Also, depending on state there is a limit to the number of shells you can have in your shotgun while game hunting--most are 5 and the Federal Migratory Bird limit is 2+1 and most states follow that for upland birds as well... As indicated there is box magazines available for guns that keeps the centre of gravity "between the hands" where it's supposed to be and if you want more rounds then that, there is always the drum magazine(s) from IIRC 6 to 25 shells... As indicated in the photo, a multi tube apparatus is available and from what I've read they are bloody barrel heavy and a true bitch to use...there is also a different manufacturer's model called XRail about to be released...Maybe the extra weight forward would help with muzzle climb and next shot recovery in a firefight but having to hold that "at ready" would be Hell...Try taping two 5 round boxed to the end on your barrel and holding that on target for any length of time... I could see a viable resource for LEO/military for your product especially for the <$150 price tag...bean or rubber bullet, tear gas or pepper spray or Mace, buckshot or slug, flare or smoke or all of the above... jaguarxk120 -- The US Military for the Dept. of Justice or Corrections experimented with a belt fed machine gun during--or just prior to--WW2 primarily for prison use--walls & guard towers, but dropped it after awhile for IIRC too slow of a cyclic rate, extremely innaccurate and of course very limited range...Looked somewhat like a Lewis Gun without the drum on top and was tripod mounted... They also tried a Gatling Gun version and with the same results, too short range, too wide spread a pattern, can't really be aimed...Inside a building or corridor defense it would be devastating... 8 pellets per round, 150 rd per minute rate of fire = 1,200 unaimed pellets in the air per minute...M1928 Thompson sub machine gun, 700 RPM of fairly accurate fire to 100 yds, or a Lewis Gun @ 550 RPM or either Brownings M1917A1 (water cooled) 450-600 RPM or the M1919A4 (air cooled) 400-500 RPM of quite accurate fire to 2,000 yds... __________________ There is a certain type of mentality that thinks if you make certain inanimate objects illegal their criminal misuse will disappear! When the human race dies out, it will be because it was brainwashed to be so totally, completely, utterly safe that it no longer dared to keep on living

November 13, 2009, 05:32 PM	#23
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	Sounds like a solution looking for a problem to me. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

November 13, 2009, 09:11 PM	#25
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I have it on good report that Aberdeen Proving Grounds in the 50s and 60s had a project of two full auto, belt fed 12 gauges coaxially mounted to a 9mm subgun loaded with tracers only. The buzzgun used was an old Sten because they had a couple. Ambush buster for APCs and trucks. Damage with 00 was tremendous, and they did try mix loading with alternating buck and slugs. One early sabot slug was developed for better armor piercing capabilities. Then they developed the Claymore mine and reactive armor and decided those was better options. However, on a shoulder weapon, belt feed can be tricky, as anyone who ever tried to keep an M60 firing while being moved can relate. And as Mr Awerback says, no shotgun magazine is ever big enough. Best to learn how to reload fast and effectively. When you can run the gun, you can be amazingly effectively with a single shot...