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Old April 17, 2019, 11:44 PM   #1
Pops1085
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It's never the rifle, it's always the shooter. Every rifle I've ever owned outshot me.

What a dumb parroted statement. I hear that all the time on the internet. I had a gunsmith tell me that today. If that were even remotely true then all people would own are savage axis rifles, because apparently all rifles are way more accurate than we ever can be. Not poopooing on anybodies Axis, but let's be honest there are rifles that shoot better than others and most people with even a little skill can start telling the difference on the range.

Same guy also told me EVERY rifle needs glass bedding and a trigger job if you want it to be actually accurate. We're getting to the point now with factory stocks that have aluminum bedding in them that we no longer need to send it to a smith to get it to shoot under an inch, or even half an inch.
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Old April 18, 2019, 12:32 AM   #2
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If you are talking about an open post and notch sighting system, I might buy the line. Once you get to 15x optics and .5in grid targets off a bench, it becomes pretty clear what accuracy the shooter provides vs what the rifle produces.
Off a bipod, I'm usually about a 0.2-0.5MOA addition to the rifle's grouping.
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Old April 18, 2019, 01:51 AM   #3
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Pops, just out of curiosity- how old is that Gunsmith? It probably has no bearing on anything, but I am curious. Seems to be a lot of folks these days that have the idea they can't simply purchase a firearm and then just shoot it and enjoy it. We see regular posts that go along the lines of "I'm thinking about buying a ______. What do I need to do to it? How many spare parts do I need? How do I make it more like the next higher power or quality firearm I shoulda bought?"

And, there's always the chance that GS worked for a place like Midas before he got into GS school. Those guys believe every car needs a $600 hubcap balancing job if nothing else. Lol
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Old April 18, 2019, 02:13 AM   #4
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Wow!!!
Did we ever under charge for hubcap balancing!!!

I'm thinking it may be time to find a new smithy...
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Old April 18, 2019, 05:24 AM   #5
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I wasn't there. I don't know the gunsmith.

The big population labeled "gunsmith" has a variety of people in it.

Near 50 % of them are below average (just like doctors and airline pilots)

If you don't like your gunsmith's work or integrity,find a different one.

I"m not worried about a conclusion to jump to,its not my business.

I figure there are two sides to the story. It might be interesting to read gunsmith posts about customers.
A benchrest is its own game,and its useful for tuning and verifying ammo and equiptment.. But off the bench,in field positions,I'd guess (and this is just a guess) not many more than 10 % of shooters can shoot better tha 3 MOA at 100 yds.


I'd guess,seat of the pants,that most moderately priced production bolt rifles will shoot 2 MOA or better at 100 yds,


And often,with a little fine tuning,a smith can make some accuracy gains.

Glass bedding CAN be a good thing. I prefer it to steel on wood bedding.

Aluminum bedding blocks? OK, CNC machined. Might be true to .001 or so.
It might not have deflected any getting epoxied in...maybe.

That's nice. You do know that steel rifle receivers warp some in heat treat,don't you? So why would that warp fit a CNC'd aluminum block? Some folks know how to Hi-Spot and scrape.

Funny how the folks who can't do their own gunsmithing know more than the gunsmith.

Last edited by HiBC; April 18, 2019 at 05:35 AM.
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Old April 18, 2019, 06:04 AM   #6
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With the consistency of modern manufacturing methods, the chances of getting a "bad barrel" are exponentially lowered.
In my younger days, I have "outshot" the rifle I was issued. This was determined by shooting a "better" class of rifle and showing higher scores. That was how a shooter moved up the ladder on the team, by out scoring another shooter with that shooter's assigned rifle.
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Old April 18, 2019, 06:40 AM   #7
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Quote:
Did we ever under charge for hubcap balancing!!!
Seriously! I had a daughter away in college call home crying because a Midas dude quoted her $600 for hubcap balancing for her 2013 Dodge Nitro that didn't even have hubcaps.
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Old April 18, 2019, 07:14 AM   #8
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While I don't agree with the OP's gunsmith, I can sympathize with his statement about it being the shooter. I hear people often complain that something is wrong with their gun's accuracy. On numerous occasions, I have seen where a different shooter with the same gun will get notably better results. A lot of shooters are very hesitant to admit that they are the cause of their shooting shortcomings. I am sure gunsmiths regularly get an earful about how perfectly good guns won't shoot straight.
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Old April 18, 2019, 10:33 AM   #9
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While I don't agree with the OP's gunsmith, I can sympathize with his statement about it being the shooter. I hear people often complain that something is wrong with their gun's accuracy. On numerous occasions, I have seen where a different shooter with the same gun will get notably better results. A lot of shooters are very hesitant to admit that they are the cause of their shooting shortcomings. I am sure gunsmiths regularly get an earful about how perfectly good guns won't shoot straight.
I suspect this is spot on. I dare say many here are capable of 1/2moa groups given the proper rifle/optic/ammo/platform combination... but many here are a minority out in the wild of the general public. While I (and I think more than just a few here) can certainly shoot better than an off-the-shelf Savage Axis will allow, many people can't. So in this context, the OP's 'Smith is just plain wrong. However, many of the more mediocre shooters out in the wild may read an article or internet reference saying that the way to fix an "inaccurate" rifle is solution XXX (bed the action, float the barrel, shim here, lap the barrel, true the action, lap bolt lugs, or whatever other "fix" may be in the public sphere). So, they take it to the local gunsmith, ask for the work, and expect a miracle rifle when it's finished. When their 2" groups didn't tighten up very much because that's about as good as they can shoot anyway without more practice, they're disappointed. The 'Smith is then left defending his work, which he may have done quite well. Which then leads him to take this "all rifles are better than any shooter is capable of anyway" approach to explaining the problem to customers. Which is not accurate in all cases, but may be in many cases.
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Old April 18, 2019, 10:57 AM   #10
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As I said,I was not there.

I think it would be interesting to hear the gunsmith say in his own words what he had to say.

On this forum I have had my words creatively re-written to say something I did not say.

So I did a copy and paste quote of myself and said "Show me where I said that"

No answer.

The Gunsmith might agree,the OP is telling it exactly how it happened.

I'm OK with that. Or the Gunsmith might tell the story a bit different.
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Old April 18, 2019, 12:59 PM   #11
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“Global statements (such as the subject of this thread) are often easy to disprove”.
Its easy In this case.
For good shooters with a sub-MOA rifle and ammo, shoot a small group to demonstrate shooter capability.
Then switch to a semi or other ammo and note the difference.

Conversely, maybe most shooters have bad habits and can’t outshoot a BB gun...
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Old April 18, 2019, 03:21 PM   #12
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You should get a Kel-Tec
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Old April 18, 2019, 07:59 PM   #13
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Funny how the folks who can't do their own gunsmithing know more than the gunsmith.



Quote:
Then switch to a semi or other ammo and note the difference.
...Another "global statement" inferring that all semi-autos are inherently less accurate than manual repeaters.
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Old April 18, 2019, 09:37 PM   #14
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rifles

Seems to me, if..... " every rifle I've ever owned out shot me"..., the guy has likely not owned enough rifles yet! Another thought is that it may not be the rifle, but it darn sure could be the ammo!
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Old April 19, 2019, 01:04 AM   #15
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It's never the rifle, it's always the shooter.
Just because someone is a gunsmith does not suddenly imbue them with vast knowledge about firearms. Sure, he has an opinion, but in this case it appears to be somewhat skewed As a gunsmith myself, I see a lot of rifles that would make you think that statement is true. I also see a lot of rifles that disprove it.
Quote:
If that were even remotely true then all people would own are savage axis rifles,
First of all, I would rather have a skin disease in a sensitive part of my body than own a Savage Axis. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with Savage rifles, I just think they look like they were made out of spare plumbing part. I prefer traditional rifles like Mausers, Winchesters, Rugers, etc.

Which brings me to my next point, if no one owned anything other than Savage Axis rifles, someone would invent something else. It's the way of free-market countries, and I applaud it. Except for Savage rifles, there is no excuse for them.
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Old April 19, 2019, 09:24 AM   #16
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If every rifle out shoots you, your a bad shot.

This thread reminds me of something I witnessed recently. A guy at the range with a S&W M&P pistol, all decked out with a custom trigger and sights, having trouble keeping his rounds on a human silhouette target at 7 yards.

A little education and a little practice goes a long way in this game.
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Old April 19, 2019, 12:08 PM   #17
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Once again,I don't know the gunsmith.
We heard one side of the story.
I've never looked at a Savage Axis.I don't know anything about them.

It MIGHT be this gunsmith was using the Axis as an example.It MIGHT be this gunsmith was saying with confidence "I can take a darn Savage Axis,do this,this,and this,and usually get XXX results"

And there are the "instant pudding" folks who focus all their time,attention,and $ on getting some magic < 0.5 MOA Bambi slayer ,thinking that the rifle somehow elevates their abilities.

It MIGHT be the gunsmith was commenting on the folks who drink his coffee,take up his time flapping their lips about squeezing another 1/2 MOA out of their rifle....but our Smith notices these same guys buy 100 rounds of ammo and one deck of sight in targets a year.

It MIGHT be this gunsmith believes that the average shooter would be better served finding 3 0r 4 MOA improvement in their own ability to shoot.
And I'm not talking benchrest.

Yes,lots of folks can drive the pickup to the range,get out their $3000 rifle with the 24 X astronomical telescope mounted on it,haul the rig 50 yds to the bench rest,get down on the bags and shoot sub MOA groups.

Or the gunsmith can maybe make THE GUN shoot sub MOA groups.


If I may twist the phrase,"Guns don't place shots,people place shots"


Maybe,just maybe,what our gunsmith was trying to say.....


Can these same sub 0.5 MOA riflemen get off the bench rest ,get their butts on the ground,sling up,and shoot targets like our own Gentleman Mr Kraig Stuart can shoot with a regular rack GI M-1 Garand ,iron sights,and Greek ammo.


I cannot shoot like Kraig. On a bench,I have rifles that shoot sub MOA.


But real world field shooting? A 2 MOA rifle will put a bullet 1 MOA or less from as good as I can hold. Within the width of my palm at a quarter mile.


At some point,who am I trying to kid? It might be the best way to "accurize" my rifle is to buy 1000 rds and some targets and become a better shot,but not using a bench rest.


I don't know the gunsmith,but it might be he was observing that most SHOOTERS without a benchrest,can't outshoot a Savage Axis,or an M-1 Garand.
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Old April 19, 2019, 02:34 PM   #18
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i don't know the gunsmith. but the amount of bullets i have shot could sink a battleship. in my early days, i have shot bullets that go around 3-4" at 100 yards.now i progressed to shoot a .157" at 100 yards(5 shots/bench/20 vartarg). thats 35+/- years of shooting. the best loads for hunting deer are from my ruger #1 in 270.

left side, 140gr hornady sst at 100 yards/bench
IMG_20170912_122403 (1).jpg

left side, 130gr nosler bt at 100 yards/bench
1437597572028.5_zpswepzm3r9.JPG

i was fireforming 20 vartarg brass(221 rem fireball) and this is what i got at 200 yards/benched.
IMG_20180525_160813 (1).jpg

i have a 1898 spr armory(bubbasized) in 30-40 krag that i have upgraded with a 102k redfield peep sight that shoots better i do. a 165gr ranch dog with h4198 that goes 1930fps is a 1 1/2 - 2" at 100 yards. it will go 3/4" at 100 yards but the shade is right, sun lined up with moon and the stars are lined up with the planets and the shooting gods smile upon me.

if you can do 1 1/2 - 2 1/2" group at 100 yards be proud of it. putting 5 shots into the same hole is great, but a 2"group at 100 is great too.
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Old April 19, 2019, 05:21 PM   #19
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“Every rifle I’ve ever owned outshot me”
If I ever hear someone say that I’ll be happy to tell them they either haven’t owned more than 2 rifles or they are the worst marksman in history and should hire someone to pull the trigger for them.

I’ve got an old 30-30 bolt action that is what I would call decently acceptable for accuracy. Though I’ve never really benched it for accuracy since it was a hunting rifle, it shoots 2-3” groups at 100 yards.
Then I have a Tikka T3x CTR in 6.5 Creed that shoots so well it makes the 30-30 target look like it was hit with 12ga buckshot from about 5 yards away. The Tikka will routinely print 5 shots into .5” or less at 100 yards when I do my part.
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Old April 19, 2019, 09:03 PM   #20
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"We've only heard one side of this story"

There is no side to this story. I literally just asked him in passing what his thoughts were on the newer Remington 700's since they've had some issues in the past. That was his response. I said "Okay."

I should've just left after that since this guy didn't know what he was talking about, but I followed up with, "well do you think they would need work like glass bedding in order for them to shoot well?" Just to gauge his reaction. "Well all bolt action rifles need glass bedding and a trigger job if you want them to be able to shoot well"

My problem is I hear that saying a lot from people who think they know guns and want to dismiss any sort of discussion on the merits of one system over another. It's usually because they don't know what they're talking about and so blurt that out to seem like they are above such conversations.
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Old April 22, 2019, 07:04 AM   #21
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Once being in the gunsmithing business and being a long-term shooter, I've probably sighted-in a couple of hundred rifles for people and accurized at least 100, to some extent. It seems natural to bed any bolt action rifle with a (decent barrel) to shoot 1 MOA or better with quality ammo.

One day at the range I was shooting a couple of benches away from a CF competition benchrest shooter with his very expensive equipment. I was shooting my .270 Win, Rem 700 accurized rifle and sighting it in with my latest hunting reloads, ending with shooting about a 1/2", 5-shot group where I planned it.

Then, I fired 5 shots offhand to check any difference in POI, making a sub-2" group. The benchrester said he was somewhat impressed with my benchrest group, but couldn't believe his eyes when he saw my offhand shooting. Being a long-time offhand shooter, I didn't think it was anything special, since I did at least that well, competing in local turkey shoots and varmint hunting.

It's amazing how few people shoot offhand or from field positions after sighting-in their deer rifles. Sometimes, it makes a big difference in POI when a rifle doesn't have a free-floated barrel, especially how many folks rest some rifles terribly wrong at the bench, especially lever-actions.
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Old April 22, 2019, 07:38 AM   #22
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If every rifle out shoots you, your a bad shot.
Not really. You need only be an average shooter to have skills inferior to most guns.
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Old April 22, 2019, 08:31 AM   #23
HiBC
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I guess the point of debate has to do with how much credit the shooter can claim for what the bench and bags and the rifle and scope can do with a 12 year old daughter at the trigger.

When is the shooter actually "outshooting" the rifle and bench.

If you can outshoot your rifle prone with a sling,,then you can outshoot your rifle.


I don't own a Rem 700.If I decided to,unless it was remarkable,I'd probably glass bed it. Free float,too.

Last edited by HiBC; April 22, 2019 at 08:37 AM.
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Old April 22, 2019, 11:08 AM   #24
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I've owned rifles and handguns that don't shoot as well as I do. I have used guns that I know shoot true to check myself when testing new guns or new loads. All guns are not accurate. Shooters have bad days. Not always right to blame poor marksmanship.
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Old April 24, 2019, 03:29 PM   #25
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Many bolt action rifles I've owned and lots of my friends' rifles have had some problems that either caused them to NOT shoot good groups, or they had deficiencies that caused them not to hold zero from various field positions, sling use, humidity conditions, and temperature variations.

When a rifle is to be used for hunting various critters, some smaller ones at longer ranges, it's important to make sure that barrels contact barrel channels uniformly, or not at all. I prefer "not at all", which may not shoot as tight groups, but at least hit the same POI, regardless of how it's held, rested, weather conditions, temperature, etc.

The only problem with having a free-floating barrel is that they're often more sensitive to ammo changes, so it's important to find a load or factory ammo that is consistent in the rifle.

In closing: Don't assume that, because a rifle has a bedding block, it is as good as it can get. Yes, you can grind to fit better, but I like using a good quality epoxy bedding to make a perfect fit, while providing a bit of vibration dampening.

Last edited by Picher; April 28, 2019 at 11:21 AM.
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