The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 27, 2019, 08:10 PM   #26
pete2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,030
Scout, it sounds to me like you are shooting very well. I think it would take a precision target air rifle to do better. Keep shooting. If it shoots that well at 25 Yards I'd say you are prolly better than 95% of us.
pete2 is offline  
Old February 27, 2019, 08:57 PM   #27
ratshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,505
You mention you have a Marlin model 60 and a Glenfield model 25? I would buy some good quality ammo like CCI high velocity and go to the range and shoot over some sand bags at 25 and 50 yards. Those are both normally very accurate rifles. If you have some bad shooting habits those guns will show it up. I bet with good rifles and and solid rest your shooting is much better than you think and what you are getting off hand with a cheap air rifle.

And welcome to the forum. Its always nice to see young person taking an interest in shooting.
__________________
"Those who cannot cleanly dispatch their game using a .30-30 are either shooting too far, hunting inappropriate (too large) game, or are simply incompetent." Mic McPherson

I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?
ratshooter is offline  
Old February 27, 2019, 09:50 PM   #28
davidsog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 1,018
Scout,

Keep working on your fundamentals. Air rifles are a great way to learn and keep your skills sharp no matter what your experience level.

We had always had one to shoot in the team room in Army.

The one you are using is not really a precision rifle so you can only be as accurate as your equipment. Does not mean it won't work but a better rifle will give you better results which means you can seperate the inaccuracies of the rifle from bad habits of the shooter, LOL.

I own an Avanti 853 that was Canadian Army surplus. Several Armies in the world teach their soldiers the fundamentals on air guns.

https://www.airgundepot.com/daisy-avanti-853c.html

The Civilian Marksmanship Program offers the same rifle made under license by Daisy for 100 bucks or so.

Quote:
DAISY M853 .177 CAL. (PNEUMATIC) USED AIR RIFLE
http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sa...er-air-rifles/

Give them a call.
davidsog is offline  
Old February 27, 2019, 11:06 PM   #29
TheScout
Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2019
Posts: 70
Thank you all for your replies. I'm really looking forward to getting to the range soon. I too have heard very good things about the Marlin 60 and Glenfield 25. Usually I get as much proficiency with irons as I can get, then thrown on a scope and scoot the targets out (That's just how I do things).
After reading what I have on this thread, I won't expect too much out of my air rifle anymore.
I am curious, does accuracy in a rifle deteriorate over time? Does something change with the rifle that just reduces it's accuracy?
TheScout is offline  
Old February 28, 2019, 01:32 PM   #30
davidsog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 1,018
Quote:
I am curious, does accuracy in a rifle deteriorate over time? Does something change with the rifle that just reduces it's accuracy?
You can wear out the barrel or damage the crown. It takes quite a while to wear out a barrel and most civilians will not ever see it happen.

There are several factors that limit the accuracy of our shooting.

1. Limitations of the weapon
2. Limitations of the Ammunition
3. Environmental Factors
4. Limitations of the shooter


Firearms have an inherent accuracy. For example, most infantry weapons are up to 8 MOA accurate with the average being ~2.5MOA.

A Minute of Angle is defined as 1 inch at 100 yards...2 Inches at 200 yards...3 inches at 300 yards so on and so forth.

So a 2.5 MOA weapon can only put a bullet in a 2.5 inch circle at 100 yards. That is as accurate as it can get.

Sniper weapons and high quality firearms designed for maximum accuracy can be as little as 1/4 MOA.

Ammunition also has an inherent accuracy defined in MOA. Variations in bullet weight, powder charge, and bullet design effect the accuracy. Match Ammunition for example has the lowest variation due to stricter quality control and is therefore more accurate. Bullet weight and barrel harmonics also combine to effect ammunition accuracy for individual weapon designs. For example, a G3 battle rifle tends to be more accurate with 150 grain bullet than it does 175 grain match because it was engineered to shoot the standard infantry ball ammunition. Weapons are engineered around a specific design ammunition. That does not mean you cannot shoot any ammunition of the same caliber, it just means when they did the math, the harmonics were optimized for specific forces and the closer your ammunition is to those forces...the more inherent accuracy to a point. That is why some "recipes" of bullet weight and charge are more accurate than others in a given firearm.

The environment affects accuracy. Temperature, humidity, and wind all affect the burn rate of the charge, peak pressure, flight time, and flight path of the bullet. Heat causes things to expand and cold to contract. A cold bore will have a different point of impact from a hot bore. Even target perspective can affect accuracy. Shooting uphill vs shooting downhill will change your zero. If you zero on a cold day then our zero will change on a hot day. It does not change much but it does change and the extremes require a sight adjustment. The biggest environmental effect is wind. Wind will push a bullet significantly off point of aim. Learning to read the wind and account for its effects on your bullets flight path is an essential skill for a long range shooter. It is a mark of skill.

The most important factor we can influence is the shooter. The fundamentals of shooting become very important and the shooters ability to apply them determines just how much of the inherent accuracy of our equipment we can squeeze out.

Breath control - shoot at the natural pause in your breathing cycle or at least when no air is moving in or out of your lungs. Breathing causes the rib cage to expand moving your firearm off the intended point of aim.

Relaxing - Do not muscle the weapon and shoot from a natural point of aim.

Aim - Proper sight picture and sight alignment. Front sight post in focus when the firearm discharges and follow thru establishing one shot with two sight pictures.

Squeeze - pretend the trigger is a button or a needle going straight thru your body that you must push thru it without any side movement. It doesn't matter where you place your finger on the trigger so long as when squeeze...it is straight back. Proper trigger control and reset skills.

So you can see that mastering all of this is both a fun and lifelong process! Most importantly, relax and have fun!
davidsog is offline  
Old February 28, 2019, 04:30 PM   #31
ratshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,505
Shooting soft lead pellets or lead bullets in a powder burning rifle you will probably never wear one out. You will do more damage with improper or incorrect cleaning than shooting. You are lucky if you live long enough or can afford enough ammo to wear out a gun.

Long ago there was a Remington ad for the then new Nylon 66 and they shot 70,000 rounds of 22 through the barrel and it still measure "as new". So don't worry about it.
__________________
"Those who cannot cleanly dispatch their game using a .30-30 are either shooting too far, hunting inappropriate (too large) game, or are simply incompetent." Mic McPherson

I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?
ratshooter is offline  
Old February 28, 2019, 05:15 PM   #32
BWM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2013
Location: SW IN
Posts: 426
If you can get your trigger pull to about 3 Lb you will see your groups get smaller the trigger pull on any gun is one of the reason that people can not shoot a good group I have about changed all of my long guns to 3 Lb up to 4 LB I have 2 hand guns that have 3 Lb pull they are ones that I shoot the best with GOOD LUCK
__________________
Man that likes guns. Navy. USS Ponchatoula AO 148 USS Vesuvius AE 15
BWM is offline  
Old February 28, 2019, 07:08 PM   #33
GarandTd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2016
Location: Western PA rainforests
Posts: 1,251
I think you're doing ok. I'm not familiar with the air gun you have, but unless you have a higher end one, they are going to be limited in accuracy and range. As long as you know the limits, they can still be good tools for learning. I shoot my kids 1 pump Red Ryder on occasion in the back yard. It's only good for about 10 yards,if that, but it's still fun and still makes for good practice. I also have a cheap plastic Taurus 92 airsoft pistol that is accurate enough within 5-7 yards for some fun plinking. I grew up with a 10 pump Crossman bb/pellet gun that I always felt was like a sniper rifle. I'm sure it was a little better than the current plinkers, but in reality, not much.
I'll bet you'll do much better with those 22's. I think you're doing pretty good if you're shooting offhand. Try shooting off a rest or bag on a bench. Also, keep in mind there can be some variance in the accuracy results from different 22 ammos. You'll have to find the one that shoots best in your rifles. My Marlin does really well with Blazer. My groups open up a little with Remington Thunderbolt, but they're still respectable. Those are both relatively inexpensive bulk 22.
__________________
22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp
GarandTd is offline  
Old March 1, 2019, 11:55 AM   #34
TheScout
Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2019
Posts: 70
Thank you all for your replies. I’ve been reading up more oand watching videos on precision shooting, and it’s really interesting stuff. I can see why they say “Easy to pick up, impossible to master”. For the .22Lr, what range should my targets be at for practice? Is 50yrds enough or should I push em out to 100 or 150 yards?
TheScout is offline  
Old March 1, 2019, 02:08 PM   #35
ratshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,505
Start at 25 to verify your scope is on target. Then move to 50 yards. Shooting at 100 yards can be an eye opener. Some ammo depending on consistency will group well and some will be all over the target. I like a 50 yard zero. You will be just a little high at 25 and just a little low at 75 yards and depending on the ammo between 4 and 6 inches low at 100 yards.
__________________
"Those who cannot cleanly dispatch their game using a .30-30 are either shooting too far, hunting inappropriate (too large) game, or are simply incompetent." Mic McPherson

I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?
ratshooter is offline  
Old March 1, 2019, 02:39 PM   #36
reinert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 455
What ratshooter said. And also, just as a suggestion, start out with your .22 as you've been shooting your pellet rifle, shooting offhand at 25 yds., and compare your results on target. Do some shooting from a good rest, too, and wring out your best groups to see what your Marlins will actually do downrange from that rest position. Then move out farther as you progress, rested and offhand. I like CCI standard vels for rifle ammo. And have fun!
reinert is offline  
Old March 1, 2019, 03:07 PM   #37
TheScout
Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2019
Posts: 70
Okay. I will do that. Thank you so much. I can’t wait to hit the range
TheScout is offline  
Old March 1, 2019, 04:44 PM   #38
seanc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 1998
Posts: 315
Since you said you don't get much range time, I'm assuming you're shooting at home, possibly outside. I have 2 suggestions:

1. I practice with a Daisy 953, the cheapest version of 753/853/953 family from Daisy. Very accurate pellet rifles, for 10 meter training. I practice with mine @ 15 yards in my basement. If I have a bad shot, it's all me, no way I can blame the rifle, wind, etc.

2. I also have a .22 springer air rifle that I can usually get 2" offhand groups at 50 yards if I hold it right (springers are hold sensitive). I'm fortunate to be able to have about a 65 yard trail out my back door that I can practice on. If I try to go past 50 yards with that springer, accuracy just falls apart. That may be because of the rifle, pellets or me. I also have a couple .22 LR rifles, a Marlin 60 & a Sears 36 (old bolt action), that I've recently started shooting CCI Quiet .22 LR that's actually quieter than my springer. The only downside to the at-home .22LR is the cost and the TWUNK! those rounds make on my bullet trap.

Lastly, you should check out the Appleseed Project for training:
https://appleseedinfo.org/schedulemap/
seanc is offline  
Old March 1, 2019, 07:38 PM   #39
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,716
Quote:
but after 3 years, I thought I should be better than that shouldn't I?
Not necessarily. I think you may have already touched the pinnacle of success. The only thing you have left to achieve? is the sharpening of your shooting skills >through experience.
Grouping of shots at rest and then again when standing is do able. But requires a whole lot of concentration and above average eye sight.

However you targeting paper at 25 yrds & having some grouping accuracy. That friend is no doubt a genuine achievement.
Keep on shooting what you have irregardless of what you currently shoot.
A word or two from a old shooter. _"Never give up the shooting sports or its associate hobbies."

BTW: nice of you stopping by to join us FLF members. ~~Appreciated.
__________________
"JUST A OLD DEPLORABLE THAT'S IRREDEMABLE."
Sure Shot Mc Gee is online now  
Old March 1, 2019, 08:45 PM   #40
GarandTd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2016
Location: Western PA rainforests
Posts: 1,251
I like 50yards with the 22 irons and glass. 100 yard with the 22/glass usually off a bag/bench. 25 yards with irons or to get close adjusting scope. My glass is cheap and not fancy, but affective for me.

If you are permitted at your range, pin up clay pigeons on the target board. My club uses thick foam insulation board on wooden frames for the target boards. The members are permitted paper/cardboard targets and clays. The clays are easy to see a hit at 50yds and sometimes will survive a couple hits. Much fun and super cheap @ $6-$10 for around 100 clay targets. I also like paper plates with a sticker in middle or a marker dot it's 7-8" round, cheap, ez to see target for 25-100yd shooting.
__________________
22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp
GarandTd is offline  
Old March 1, 2019, 09:44 PM   #41
ratshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,505
Also air rifles need their bore cleaned too. For my 22 I can use a regular 22 rod and brush but for the 177 I have an old solid car radio antenna with a bullet shaped bulb on the end. I wrap a piece of white T-Shirt around it and shove it down the bore. It will come out black with left over lead, Do this several times and accuracy will improve on my gun. Small bores are more sensitive to fouling than larger bores.
__________________
"Those who cannot cleanly dispatch their game using a .30-30 are either shooting too far, hunting inappropriate (too large) game, or are simply incompetent." Mic McPherson

I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?
ratshooter is offline  
Old March 1, 2019, 11:04 PM   #42
TheScout
Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2019
Posts: 70
I must've spent about 3 hours with that air rifle today, not really focusing on the shot accuracy, but the consistency and the technique. I was pretty pleased. I can see now that it's the rifle's issues, not mine. I've seen your suggestions for more intermediate and accurate air rifles and might start looking for one soon. I bought a Hoppe's cleaning kit a while ago and cleaned and oiled down all my long guns. I went through the bores with a dry cloth and then some bore cleaner. I've heard that excessive bore cleaner is not good so I only use it once per a couple range days. I've taken down your suggestions on how to set up the range and will use that the next time I head out.
TheScout is offline  
Old March 2, 2019, 08:38 AM   #43
10-96
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2005
Location: Tx Panhandle Territory
Posts: 3,853
TheScout- I noticed early in the threat you mentioned a Sears Bolt Action Shotgun. I urge you to google "Sears bolt action shotgun recall". I don't recall all the ins and outs of it, but I do know there was a recall. Once upon a time, Sears would pay for bolts, then they went to coupons or Sears Buck, now that they are on their last leg I'm not sure what they are doing. I believe this only applied to the 12ga shotguns, but I could be wrong.

But for safety, google it and get the info from a reliable source.
__________________
Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day)

I'm going to use the words "clip" and "Long Colt" every chance I get. It grinds my gears to see new members attacked when we all know dang good and well what's being refered to.
10-96 is online now  
Old March 2, 2019, 11:06 AM   #44
TheScout
Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2019
Posts: 70
Quote:
TheScout- I noticed early in the threat you mentioned a Sears Bolt Action Shotgun. I urge you to google "Sears bolt action shotgun recall". I don't recall all the ins and outs of it, but I do know there was a recall. Once upon a time, Sears would pay for bolts, then they went to coupons or Sears Buck, now that they are on their last leg I'm not sure what they are doing. I believe this only applied to the 12ga shotguns, but I could be wrong.

But for safety, google it and get the info from a reliable source
10-96, Thank you for the warning. I had read about that a while ago while researching the gun, but dismissed it for some reason. I didn't think old guns would actually be recalled. Good advice though, I will look into that for safety reasons.
TheScout is offline  
Old March 2, 2019, 11:40 AM   #45
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: SW Washington state
Posts: 1,541
Not a fan

Was never a fan of those old bolt action shotguns. Is anyone still making them?

Tho Hubel's 12 ga rifle from hell thread is always fascinating. To me that's about the only good use for a bolt action shotgun.

I would only hang on to a family heirloom. But that's me.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is offline  
Old March 2, 2019, 01:08 PM   #46
davidsog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 1,018
Sears Issues Voluntary Recall on J.C. Higgins Shotgun



HOFFMAN ESTATES, Ill., March 13 /PRNewswire/ -- Sears, Roebuck and Co.
(NYSE: S) today announced a voluntary recall of J.C. Higgins Bolt Action
12-Gauge shotguns, a product manufactured for and sold by the company during
the 1950s.
The shotguns are being voluntary recalled due to a potential problem with
the bolt latch assembly, which could cause the assembly to fail allowing it to
dislodge and strike the operator in the face. Sears is offering a $160
finders' fee for the return of the bolt, making the shotgun inoperable.
The shotguns were sold in Sears stores and through its catalog as the
"J.C. Higgins Bolt Action 12-Gauge Model 10 Shotgun" during the 1950s. It was carried under a number of product numbers: 583.13, 583.14, 583.15, 583.16, 583.17, 583.18, 583.19, 583.20, 583.21 and 583.22. The product model number is engraved on the barrel of the shotgun.
Consumers are advised to immediately stop using the shotgun. Call
800-817-9165 for identification verification and instructions on return
procedures.
Sears, Roebuck and Co. discontinued the sale of all firearms and
ammunition in the early 1980s. Through its network of more than 830 full-line
stores and 2,500 off-the-mall stores, Sears is a leading retailer of apparel,
home and automotive products and services, serving more than 50 million
households.



SOURCE Sears, Roebuck and Co.

If you do not have one the recalled guns, it is safe to shoot and as I understand...one of the better bolt action shotguns made.
davidsog is offline  
Old March 3, 2019, 11:06 AM   #47
TheScout
Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2019
Posts: 70
Thank you for the info, I will put a call in for them a s soon as I can.
TheScout is offline  
Old March 4, 2019, 05:55 AM   #48
PatientWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Location: NC
Posts: 841
I think you would do much better with an equipment upgrade. I have been able to cover three rounds with a quarter shooting a Crossman 1377 pistol freehand at 12 yards.

When I had access to better equipment than that I also shot better (of course I was younger then also).
PatientWolf is offline  
Old March 4, 2019, 08:49 AM   #49
BeeShooter
Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2016
Posts: 85
Scout; The only thing you have to know about shooting accurately is concentrating on keeping the sight on the target(or the spot where you want the bullet to go) while squeezing it off. That's it. It's that simple. Don't think about trigger pull, breathing, etc. (all of that stuff takes care of itself) - Also try not shoot if your tired.
BeeShooter is offline  
Old March 4, 2019, 09:21 AM   #50
davidsog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 1,018
Quote:
Scout; The only thing you have to know about shooting accurately is concentrating on keeping the sight on the target(or the spot where you want the bullet to go) while squeezing it off. That's it. It's that simple. Don't think about trigger pull, breathing, etc. (all of that stuff takes care of itself) - Also try not shoot if your tired.
I agree in that sight picture and especially having that front sight in crystal clear focus is very important.

However, not knowing and not working on the other fundamentals will make most shooters able to rise to a level of mediocrity settling somewhere around average to just below it.
davidsog is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10101 seconds with 9 queries