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Old June 11, 2019, 07:38 PM   #126
AK103K
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Ok....well some folks can read forward and one direction and others see everything backward in dyslexia.
And maybe some just shoot the gun, whatever it is, while others complain about why they cant.

You can either shoot it, or you cant. 99% of the time, if you cant, its not the guns fault.

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most folks are simply unschooled on what makes a good trigger
Most folks worry about the trigger too much, instead of focusing on what they should be focusing one, and just shooting the gun.

And its funny you posted something up about the Rhino. I just picked one up a little over a week ago, and this was my first target. 100 rounds, DAO offhand, somewhere between 10-15 yards.



And so far, a couple of people who have fired and dry fired it, have all complained about its trigger. My youngest son on the other hand, seemd to have no troubles shooting it, but he also learned to shoot DA revolvers, DAO, early on.

And I do have to admit, its trigger is a bit different, and the trigger itself, a tad "wide" for my liking (more like a smooth S&W target trigger), especially for DA shooting, but its still very shootable.

ETA:

And just so you dont think its a fluke, this was 50 rounds shot at the same distance with my 3" Model 65 Smith. Same way, offhand, DAO....

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Old June 11, 2019, 07:49 PM   #127
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There is a reason that Glock is the bar by which all other striker fired guns that have come to be have been measured against..
Timing in the market is what made Glock popular with the masses but certainly not the standard by which all are measured.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...ricas-handgun/

Interestingly enough, The first striker fired polymer pistol was an H&K designed for cheaply arming a civilian resistance in case of Russian invasion.

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That title would belong to the HK VP70, which truly was the first factory produced polymer framed, striker fired pistol, beating out the Glock 17 by around a dozen years.
https://gunnewsdaily.com/hk-vp9-review/
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Old June 11, 2019, 07:51 PM   #128
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And maybe some just shoot the gun, whatever it is, while others complain about why they cant.
Could be but not in this case. I just happen to know what a good trigger is from having a job that shot more ammunition in a quarter for a handful of guys than an entire Infantry Battalion in the 82nd Airborne was issued all year.
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Old June 11, 2019, 08:08 PM   #129
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I just picked one up a little over a week ago, and this was my first target. 100 rounds, DAO offhand, somewhere between 10-15 yards.
Nice shooting!!

Here is me shooting with mirror over my shoulder using a mirror at 500 yards with a .177 crosman pellet pistol.





Seriously guy, Your statement about triggers does not sound smart. Yes, you need to be able to use different triggers for different environments. An M24 trigger is not designed nor is it good for patrolling which is why such rifles stay in a drag bag until it is time to stalk.

I think that is what you mean to say.

Claiming that all triggers are great is simply a falsehood.
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Old June 11, 2019, 08:10 PM   #130
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That title would belong to the HK VP70, which truly was the first factory produced polymer framed, striker fired pistol, beating out the Glock 17 by around a dozen years.
Ive shot a VP70, my buddy had one back in the 80's. Ive also owned a P9S, and a P7M13. The latter two were much more shootable than the 70 too.

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Could be but not in this case. I just happen to know what a good trigger is from having a job that shot more ammunition in a quarter for a handful of guys than an entire Infantry Battalion in the 82nd Airborne was issued all year.
Im not sure I understand your point here.

I shoot a lot of ammo by myself each year, more so than many. About 20,000 rounds or so of that is just out of a couple of my Glocks, the rest, all sorts of different guns, calibers, and trigger types. A lot of that is DAO too, revolver and auto.

Even with something new, like the Rhino, I dont seem to have the trigger problems you so often hear people bitch about. Yea, the trigger is a little different, but so what? Its by no means a problem.

But as I have been saying, I dont worry on the trigger when I shoot, I focus on the sights (or some form of sighting, if Im not using the sights) and the target, and I shoot the target.
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Old June 11, 2019, 08:15 PM   #131
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I dont worry on the trigger when I shoot,
You are missing half the equation then and could improve your shooting as a result. All the fundamentals coming together is what makes a good shooter.

Yes, front sight, front sight, front sight holds true....

Last edited by Tom Servo; June 11, 2019 at 08:57 PM. Reason: Removed bickering
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Old June 11, 2019, 08:25 PM   #132
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Claiming that all triggers are great is simply a falsehood.
Im simply saying most all triggers are shootable, as they come. You dont have to do a thing to them to shoot well with them.

And I fully understand your point about the M24. As an example, back when we were into the HK 91's, my one buddy was convinced you couldnt shoot the stock HK trigger with any accuracy (he couldnt, the rest of us didnt seem to have any troubles).

He sent it off to Williams for a trigger job. Gun came back with a super light and nice trigger, for bench rest target shooting. There was no way Id carry that gun around with a round in the chamber with a trigger like that.

And a lot of people bitched about those HK/G3 triggers when they shot mine, and I always thought they shot just fine. Then again, they arent what most American shooters seem to want in a trigger.

Same goes for a lot of these 1911's and a few others that people seem to think you have to have a 1 once trigger to shoot well with. Those guys are scarier to me, and probably more of a threat, than the bad guys too.

My one buddy has two Nighthawk customs. Both have great "target" triggers. Even so, he still cant shoot for crap, simply because he won't put the time in to get even reasonably good. Hes counting on those high dollar guns and triggers to make up for his lack of skill. In other words, hes trying to buy skill, and I think thats actually a pretty common thing.

I cringe thinking about him carrying those guns too. Todd forbid he ever needs to actually pull one out and use it under stress. And anyone around him is likely in serious danger, not just the bad guy.
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Old June 11, 2019, 08:38 PM   #133
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You are missing half the equation then and could improve your shooting as a result. All the fundamentals coming together is what makes a good shooter.
No, the whole equation is there when I shoot. Im just to the point, I don't think about the act of making or breaking the shot. I think about shooting the target. Thats my focus.

Its like driving a car. I dont think about the actual driving part, I just drive the car. Its no different here, just in this case, Im driving the gun.
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Old June 11, 2019, 09:06 PM   #134
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Im simply saying most all triggers are shootable, as they come.
They are and some are more shootable than others. Some are more suitable for the job the weapon was meant to perform and not the range on a sunday afternoon. I agree with you on the 1 lb 1911 triggers for CCW and your examples.

That does not negate the fact some triggers are better than others.

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No, the whole equation is there when I shoot.
Then there is nothing else to learn or improve upon. Maybe one day I will get there. <sarcasm in case it was missed>


Last edited by davidsog; June 12, 2019 at 07:30 AM.
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Old June 11, 2019, 09:13 PM   #135
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Im not sure I understand your point here.
My point is I have a little experience since you keep bringing up yours....
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Old June 11, 2019, 09:18 PM   #136
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I have owned almost all of the striker fired polymer framed pistols, sans the Ruger American and the FN 509 (I'd like to try the latter). Some had triggers I preferred over others, and in talking about them on the forum I've found a number of people that agree, and a number that dramatically disagree. I haven't owned any such pistol where I found unanimous consent on the trigger. While I would agree there are factors about which most generally agree, it seems like the debate never ends (evidence for which is partly this forum's continued existence and of course the market choices today).

To AK's point, I don't find the trigger on the Glock to be such that is prevents what I consider good shooting, including an unmodified Glock trigger. That has been my experience. There are other triggers on other polymer framed striker fired handguns that I prefer in one way or the other, but I still seem to shoot Glocks well. That being said, the market is saturated with similar such pistols. If someone is convinced that another pistol is better, there's no reason for that person to have to use a Glock.

I see this thread as an example of one Glock that, from my read of it, faired fairly well over a relatively high round count for a pistol (especially in the realm of civilian use). Glock's customer service also seemed good. Whether someone does or doesn't like Glock, does or doesn't like their triggers, to me doesn't change that narrative.

For the recent comments about the very poor performance with the Glock, to me that pistol should go back to Glock on Glock's dime, or be fixed locally by a Glock armorer. The only way to keep manufacturers honest is to demand they maintain their quality. One good example is great, but many good examples is a lot better.
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Old June 12, 2019, 12:15 AM   #137
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Alright I’ve gotta ask, what lube were you using? I’ve gotten way more wear and I have a small fraction of the rounds you do through my 17!
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Old June 12, 2019, 06:28 AM   #138
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Mobile One 30 weight.

When I first got the gun, I was trying Frog Lube, but found it was more hype than help.

The Mobile One works great. And considering I clean and lube everything I shoot, every time I shoot, it still goes a long way. I'm still on the first quart I bought about 8 years ago, and its still half full. It's a lot cheaper too. About $7 a quart at Walmart.
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Old June 12, 2019, 10:57 AM   #139
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I owned a VP70. A Glock it was truly not. It was an albatross with a remarkably awful trigger. It was the first but HK did not attempt another polymer pistol again until some 11 years after Glock.
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Old June 12, 2019, 05:22 PM   #140
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Can this thread be locked now since nobody has the experience, ability, or wherewithal to measure up anymore? It’s gone off the rails of Hey look how well my Glock held up and their good customer service to a straight up measuring contest and everyone is inferior...
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Old June 12, 2019, 06:08 PM   #141
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It was an albatross with a remarkably awful trigger.
Yep, The civilian version especially as it is a pure afterthought when they could not get NATO to bite off on the concept. The Military version is fully automatic with a detachable shoulder stock/holster. That stock actually interfaces with the trigger, housing a portion of the trigger pack, and it is not so bad. Without the stock it horrible as it was only meant to be used as a pistol in an emergency.

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Mobile One 30 weight.
I use CLP because the Army spent lots of science, time, and effort to develop a system that did not have the issue of other lubricants.

Now, they are developing a system where weapons do not have to be lubricated very much if at all.

So in a year or so, go get that Glock coated and run another 70,000 rounds thru it, LOL.

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What if you never had to clean and lubricate your rifle again?
Quote:
Testing so far has been limited but encouraging, the two said. A 10,000-round test of an M4A1, for example, produced zero stoppages despite testers never cleaning the gun, Foltz said. "The only time we weren't shooting was to let the barrel cool."
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...ning-obsolete/

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The US Army’s Armament Research, Development, and Engineering Center (ARDEC) has developed an integral surface treatment for infantry small arms that could augment or supplant the existing applicated Cleaning, Lubricating, Preserving (CLP) lubricant on small arms components.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...t-replace-clp/
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Old June 12, 2019, 06:55 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by davidsog View Post

I use CLP because the Army spent lots of science, time, and effort to develop a system that did not have the issue of other lubricants.

Now, they are developing a system where weapons do not have to be lubricated very much if at all.

So in a year or so, go get that Glock coated and run another 70,000 rounds thru it, LOL.
Hey, whatever floats your boat or what Uncle Sam tells you to use.

Over the years, the government has flip-flopped around and used a bunch of different things. I still have an old can of issue, "state of the art", early 70's era Dry Slide around here somewhere. Ive tried most of the "lubes of the month", and they all work for the most part. Frog Lube is one Id really recommend you avoid though.

The Mobil One works just as well as the high dollar fancy stuff Ive used in the past and at a fraction of the cost, and you can find it anywhere.

Glocks run fine with minimal lube and are one of the few that really need no preventive stuff as far as rust goes. I havent had one rust yet, and Ive had a number of handguns rust over the years.
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Old June 12, 2019, 10:30 PM   #143
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Hey, whatever floats your boat or what Uncle Sam tells you to use.
Interestingly enough, the reason I started using BreakFree CLP was that it was recommended in the owner's manual of my first firearm. I figured if a firearm manufacturer thought enough of another company's product to mention it in their product literature, it was worth looking into.
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The Mobil One works just as well as the high dollar fancy stuff Ive used in the past and at a fraction of the cost, and you can find it anywhere.
At one time (maybe still true) the Mobil One synthetic lubricant base and the lubricant base in BreakFree CLP were identical. What differentiated the two were the additives which made Mobil One suited for automotive lubrication and made BreakFree CLP suited for firearm lubrication, cleaning, and corrosion protection.

Mobil One will certainly do a good job of lubricating a firearm (as your experience shows), however in the testing I've seen, it doesn't do nearly as good a job on corrosion protection as a premium firearm lube. In addition, it may have some additives that are not ideal for something that will be carried next to clothing or skin although that statement may also be true of CLP.

Corrosion resistance isn't a huge concern for Glocks as they are pretty rust resistant. That said, I don't have much experience with the new finish they're using on the U.S. made pistols. It's worthwhile to keep in mind that the internal "silver-colored" parts are plated steel, so if they are "polished" excessively or wear significantly the steel may be exposed and can rust at that point.
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Old June 13, 2019, 07:35 AM   #144
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Some had triggers I preferred over others, and in talking about them on the forum I've found a number of people that agree, and a number that dramatically disagree. I haven't owned any such pistol where I found unanimous consent on the trigger. While I would agree there are factors about which most generally agree, it seems like the debate never ends (evidence for which is partly this forum's continued existence and of course the market choices today).
Agree..seems like 'caliber wars'..'trigger wars'...
Quote:
I see this thread as an example of one Glock that, from my read of it, faired fairly well over a relatively high round count for a pistol (especially in the realm of civilian use). Glock's customer service also seemed good. Whether someone does or doesn't like Glock, does or doesn't like their triggers, to me doesn't change that narrative.
Agree again..pretty new returnee to guns, and 'some' will discount me as just a 'FNG", but after owning Ruger, S&W, Taurus, and now Glock..yup, their triggers are different but none YUGELY 'better' than another..IMHO.
Quote:
For the recent comments about the very poor performance with the Glock, to me that pistol should go back to Glock on Glock's dime, or be fixed locally by a Glock armorer. The only way to keep manufacturers honest is to demand they maintain their quality. One good example is great, but many good examples is a lot better.
Agree again...the gent needs to send that thing back or get a refund..
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Old June 13, 2019, 11:24 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
Interestingly enough, the reason I started using BreakFree CLP was that it was recommended in the owner's manual of my first firearm. I figured if a firearm manufacturer thought enough of another company's product to mention it in their product literature, it was worth looking into.
I found out about Eezox that way. Seecamp was recommending it in their manuals as, of all things, a CLP. The protectant part it has down, the cleaning and lubing part, not at all.

The only way to find out is to actually use them and see. I found that out with Frog Lube. Great marketing, Not so great product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
Mobil One will certainly do a good job of lubricating a firearm (as your experience shows), however in the testing I've seen, it doesn't do nearly as good a job on corrosion protection as a premium firearm lube. In addition, it may have some additives that are not ideal for something that will be carried next to clothing or skin although that statement may also be true of CLP.

Corrosion resistance isn't a huge concern for Glocks as they are pretty rust resistant. That said, I don't have much experience with the new finish they're using on the U.S. made pistols. It's worthwhile to keep in mind that the internal "silver-colored" parts are plated steel, so if they are "polished" excessively or wear significantly the steel may be exposed and can rust at that point.
Ive tried the "do all" products and found they might do all "OK", as with most things of the type, they dont do "ALL" things, great.

These days, I just clean with a cleaner meant for just that, and lube with the Mobile One.

The only thing I dont use it on, are things like M1 Garands, that require grease.

For anything I might be worried about rust/corrosion with, I use Eezox.

Until I come across something that might work better, that seems to be the ticket of me right now, and its been working well.


The only thing Ive ever had start to rust on a Glock, were the slide stop levers. The finish on them wears off from holster wear and use over time.

One of the reasons I like Glock is because of their being pretty much impervious to corrosion. My sweat seems to be caustic, and I sweat like a pig. Working outside in hot, humid summers, doesnt fare well for pretty much anything carried on my body that ends up exposed to sweat.

Guns in leather holsters were particularly susceptible to constant rust, especially during the summer months. Kydex and things like hard chrome finishes were much better protection than any of the wiped on "protectants".

Eezox is the only one of those so far, that Ive found actually works as advertised. But even with it, you still need to constantly keep after things.
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Old June 18, 2019, 02:55 PM   #146
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Guns in leather holsters were particularly susceptible to constant rust, especially during the summer months. Kydex and things like hard chrome finishes were much better protection than any of the wiped on "protectants".
Funny you mention that but for a long time my truck gun was a model 65 stainless steel 357 in an Uncle Mikes Ballistic Nylon holster and the gun would get speckles of rust on top of the barrel and frame where the sand blasted area is. And nothing I put on it would protect it. Not even wax. I finally traded it out for a SW9VE for a truck gun.

My bud has a heavy barreled model 10 police trade in and he kept it in the same kind of holster and had the same rust issues with his gun. So now he keeps it wrapped in a rag. And I even sprayed the inside of my holster with Remoil. Still rusted.

I put my GP-100 stainless Steel in the Uncle Mikes holster just as an experiment and its never rusted a single bit. I'm still thinking on this one.
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Old June 18, 2019, 05:47 PM   #147
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Give Eezox a try. I have some tools and a shotgun I keep in a fairly damp basement (even with a dehumidifier running), and I havent had a speck of rust on anything Ive wiped down with Eezox. And thats just once or twice a year.


If you want something you dont have to mess with, then something like having the gun hard chromed would probably be your best bet.

Ive carried a couple of stainless guns over the years, again, in leather holsters, and they too would rust, especially at and under the grips. Done the same with a hard chromed gun, and there was some very light and fine powdery surface rust around the inboard grip, but basically no rust at all.
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Old June 18, 2019, 06:05 PM   #148
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Hi AK. My bud was a big fan of Eezox and showed it to me. I have never seen it for sale around me but have to admit I haven't looked either.

Like I said I just swapped truck guns and the SW9VE is about the best truck pistol you can get. I found a secret hidey hole my BIL who is a fireman showed me that he said most cops don't know about.

I have a GMC Sierra 2004 model and where the console is and the drink holder in front of the console if you try with effort you can lift out the drink holder and there is a cavity there that will easily hold the gun and a spare mag. I sanded the tabs a little and made it a lot easier to remove. Not super fast access but fast enough for me.

Anyway its dry and no rust problems with the S&W auto in there. But I will look for Eezox and pick up some Mobile 1.

In case you haven't figured it out yet I am hatchet jack over on the Survivalist Boards forum.
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Old June 18, 2019, 06:18 PM   #149
AK103K
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The only place Ive found Eezox has been online.

https://www.eezox.com/

Looks like you can get it on Amazon now too.

https://www.amazon.com/Eezox-Synthet...gateway&sr=8-1

And back at ya.
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Old June 18, 2019, 08:08 PM   #150
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Glocks run fine with minimal lube and are one of the few that really need no preventive stuff as far as rust goes. I havent had one rust yet, and Ive had a number of handguns rust over the years.
They rust like any other piece of metal. They even rusted in Afghanistan....like every other weapon...when you only put a little lube on it, LOL.

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2139
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