Winchester 9mm 147gr Silvertip JHP in Clear Ballistics Gel

[5pins]

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Winchester 147gr Silvertip JHP
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 947, 914 fps
Gel Temperature 71 degrees.

I sure most people here are familiar with the Winchester Silvertip. I've had this box for a while now and found it the other day and decided to give it a try. Out of the Sig, I got an average velocity of 947fps with a high of 972 and a low of 937fps. Out of the Beretta Nano, I got an average velocity of 914fps with a high of 924fps and a low of 894fps.



Out of the Sig P229, the first round into the bare gel penetrated 17.5 inches and expanded to .56 inches. No velocity reading but the recovered weight was 149.4 grains. The second hit the block at 968fps and penetrated to 17 inches. It also expanded to .56 inches and had a recovered weight of 149.8 grains. Both bullets were recovered base forward even though there was no sign of tumbling.



When shot through clothing covered gel, the first round had a velocity of 930fps and penetrated to 19 inches. The recovered diameter was .44 inches and weighed 149.6 grains. Round two hit at a velocity of 936fps, penetrated to 19.5 inches with no expansion. It did show some deformation of the nose and the recovered weight was 149.5 grains. Both bullets stopped nose forward but the gel showed tumbling midway through the first block.





Out of the Beretta Nano, the first round penetrated to 18 inches with a recovered diameter of .55 inches and a weight of 149.6 grains. No velocity was recorded. Round two had a velocity of 888fps and penetrated to 18 inches also. It expanded to .53 inches and weighted 149.7 grains.

[Dufus]

That is odd that the recovered bullets weighed more than before they were fired.

[5pins]

I'm sure they weighed that much before they were shot.

[Model12Win]

Looks like a decent load but Ill stick with .45 thank you vert much.

[Nanuk]

147 grain 9mm's work great in suppressed sub guns.

[Ricklin]

Where do the bullets pick up the extra weight? I can buy that they may have been a few grains heavier than the box stated 147, but for them to be heavier after being fired seems odd.

From the looks of the recovered bullets they appear to have shed some weight, not gained some.

Please let me know what i am missing.

[briandg]

Wow. I had a lot of faith in the silvertip.

That is odd that the recovered bullets weighed more than before they were fired.

It is. I don't know an answer. Would winchester have deliberately loaded defective bullets, meaning bullets that weighed at least 2-1/2 grains over the clearly posted weight? My god, would that be sane, when life, safety, and lawyers will be involved? my thoughts are that the things dragged a little gel into the crevices.

Naked gel was all that you could expect from an average old stock HP. It expanded and folded back. covered gel performance was literally terrible. Might as well be shooting flat nosed fmj.

The tumbling?? I'm not even going to guess at why that happened unless it's just a problem with the weight, length, and SD.


I never liked the fact that the hollow points of the silver tips that I carried seemed to be far too small. I was right to doubt that.

I won't ever rotate the ST back into a magazine, but who knows. There may come a day when I'm going to want or need 400+- spare hollow points, I'm sure that I have at least that many retired carry rounds.

The most important part of the new breed of HP is the notched, or petaled face. The points are where your distance, and hence physical wound channel will be, The interstitial space between won't drag on tissues or gel, allowing a petaled mushroom to penetrate farther with less drag. Right from that very first place, any petaled HP load starts with a theoretical edge.

[bamaranger]

Back in the day, when our agency switched from round guns to flat guns, the initial phase was SIG P228's and the issue carry ammo was 147 JHP. Manufacturer's could vary, but 147 was the weight. And so we sallied forth, none of us getting in any gun fights to my recall, but a lot of flesh and blood critters got shot, euthanizing game animals after MVA's, feral animals, that sort of thing. And their was universal agreement that the 9mm/147 just was not much of a cartridge, certainly when compared to the .357/110 or .357/125 that we had in revolvers before the switch. Even the +P+ .38/110 seemed more cartridge, allegedly reaching 1200 fps plus from a 4" service revolver.

Better loads existed, high speed loads facilitating expansion, nobody in the field understood why the plodding 147's were selected. There was talk that the 9mm/147 was commonly used by the FBI in the MP5....suppressed, and that administrators that were not shooters simply used that as a guide and got aboard existing federal contracts for 147 gr ammo at good prices.....money or lack of it, drives much of what agencies do.

And then the FBI/Miami incident happened, and the 9mm and the Silvertip became highly suspect, the .40 S&W hit the scene, and phase two of the transition took place.....all that in about the same time frame. Rangers were allowed to select from 3 calibers and 3 SIG models. Field staff abandoned the P228/9mm/147 like fleas from a dead deer and went with the P229/.40 (all that was available at the time) or the P220/.45.

NOw that the 9mm is "in" again, I don't still don't see much press on the 147.

[Sharkbite]

Penetration was good....expansion was not.

The newer HP’s will give you that penetration with better expansion after hitting intermediate barriers.

My preferred load is the 147gn Gold dot.

[bamaranger]

Note the velocity, or lack of it, with the 147gr and the short barreled Beretta, and the corresponding lack of expansion. The low round from the Nano did not break 900 fps.

We always theorized that the 147gr was INTENDED for the sub guns, where they would have gained some additional velocity due to longer barrel, but in the short barrel of a Nano, the P228/229 and even shorter models, , I think the 147gr is a liability due to its potential for low velocity and subsequent lack of expansion.

[mete]

Bullet makers can make anything you want. Speer made a 45acp bullet that wouldn't exit a ;chuck hit in the shoulder area at close range ! They dropped that since it was too fragile for defense use apparently.
but we have a large selection of 9mm rounds. Anywhere from 90 t0 147. standard , +P, +P+. . I' stick with the 124 and a premium bullet like the barnes.

[Brit]

The same old conversation on the expansion of a 9mm pistol bullet. It is what you hit Guys, not what you hit it with. 18 inches of penetration in some form of muscle medium? Not too shabby.

Nothing much changes in bullet hitting body results, over the last 100 years. The original 9mm load, a pointed hardball bullet, 124g? Killed many thousands of people shot with it. Some rounds sped right on through, a hole going in, one coming out.

You are still looking at total mobility, for 10 or 15 seconds, even with a bullet straight through the heart. That is possibly a lot of trigger presses aimed at you.

So here we are, back to the one shot stop? Clip the top of the spine? Sever it!
All messages to limbs? Finished. And that is more luck than marksmanship.

You can fire 3 or 4 9mm rounds, in about a second? That works most of the time.

[Cheapshooter]

You are still looking at total mobility, for 10 or 15 seconds, even with a bullet straight through the heart. That is possibly a lot of trigger presses aimed at you.

In 99.9999% of civilian self defense shootings by an honest victim that 10 or 15 seconds of total mobility will be used by the attacker trying to get the heck out of there. Not wanting to be shot again!

[KyJim]

The same old conversation on the expansion of a 9mm pistol bullet. It is what you hit Guys, not what you hit it with.

My thoughts on a carry gun addresses this:

Any gun is better than no gun. A gun you can shoot accurately is better than a gun you shoot inaccurately. A bigger hole is better than a smaller hole.

Blood loss can incapacitate and, all other things being equal, a bigger hole causes quicker blood loss than a smaller hole.

[bamaranger]

I didn't intend to steer this post down the path of the age old caliber debate, but I see I sure did.

My comments regard the 9mm/147 were based on my observations of 9mm slugs from the 90's era, the Silvertip, and heavy 9mm, was up and coming then, but what we saw on living critter tissue was pretty dismal. In those days, I was an avowed 9mm basher,and FBI/Miami only reinforced my beliefs.

I've changed my stance a good bit. I routinely carry a Glock 17 in the hot summer months, loaded with +P or, +P+ 124's, and do not feel undergunned in the least. I dabble (poorly most times) in IDPA a bit, and retired, am not bound to the SIG which my agency required and I competed with at that time.. In IDPA I shoot a G34, the G17 is a perfect compliment to it.

I still believe that as noted, a bigger bore is better, and placement is paramount. When the weather moderates and I can get away from an inside the waistband holster, I carry a bigger gun on a belt holster. But I now think a full size 9mm (4" barrel and up) with the right ammo is a minimum for personal SD, when 20 yrs ago I did not.

[unclejack37]

How does the new ammo stand up to what was mentioned above? Here's some results
http://https://www.luckygunner.com/l...tic-tests/#9mm
Check out the 9mm Winchester 147 gr Ranger T-series ( 2nd from the bottom). The bullet starts out at .356 in and after impact in ballistic gel it expands to .74 in. Almost 3/4 of an inch, wow. I might have to think about that as a new defensive round. The link above covers almost all the concealed carry hand guns.