"Boxerized" Berdan shells

El Chimango Pete · March 13, 1999, 05:46 PM

I've run into a lot (about 300!) of 45 ACP brass - Argentine army, issue is Berdan - that has been drilled in the center, so they have three flash holes. I tried a few with CCI standard primers, they seat ok and velocities measure up reasonably well (IPSC, with 5 gn Unique - ok, i like the smell - and 230 gn lead rn.: apparently they work... now, am I pushing my luck?

Art Eatman · March 14, 1999, 12:21 AM

This is one of those deals which could easily get dangerous, but up to a point is just fine. That is, so long as you're staying with light loads, you're okay. Even at full power, the .45ACP is a low-intensity cartridge, and you're way below Max. Stay there!

I'd keep that brass separate, or paint the case head red..."Light Loads Only".

And DON'T EVER DO THIS WITH A RIFLE CARTRIDGE!!!

Later, Art

Michael Carlin · March 15, 1999, 10:46 PM

I have been thinking about this for several days now. Email me, I will give you 300 pieces of once fired brass if you will promise to throw this stuff away! You pay the shipping I will GIVE you the brass, you throw this junk away. OK?

------------------
Ni ellegimit carborundum esse!

Yours In Marksmanship
http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished

michael

El Chimango Pete · March 16, 1999, 12:37 PM

Michael - much appreciate your concern!
And tahnks Art, though i tried and chronographed the light loads shown (no noticeable difference with standard Boxers in velocity or pressure signs like flattened heads etc.) I had already come to the conclusion - that this (well named) junk could be unpredictable - the shells have been destroyed. Thought of shipping them to Saddam Hussein but heard he doesn't reload (not 45's; perhaps all sorts of other more nasty stuff)

I'm not sure of the actual details of the combustion around the flash-holes, there must be a flame front that propagates through the powder (measurable in nanoseconds no doubt). The question must be similar to that of the 'empty space' in large cases (such as the 45 LC which I load quite a lot - dat be de one! ). Thanks also for the offer of free brass... my Scottish ancestors tell me to accept (though not that badly strapped! - on principle) but my Argentine experience tells me that i would go from the customs desk at the post office to the nearest jailhouse to await the Judges attentions.

Still - wonder what actual process can cause pressure differences from primers? Using a magnum primer vs. standard - or variations between Federal and CCI and RWS-Nobel for instance? or using 'rifle' for 'pistol'? (all other things being equal)

Peter Knight (aka 'El Chimango Pete')

[This message has been edited by Elchimango (edited March 16, 1999).]

Art Eatman · March 16, 1999, 05:04 PM

Elchimango: Keep in mind that the larger granules of the slower-burning powders need more heat for ignition than the finer granules of fast stuff.

Also, the volumes of the charges of most rifles are greater than for most pistols.

Most Magnum charges are of the larger/slower powders.

So, a Magnum cartridge's powder charge needs more "Oomph" to get a uniform and complete ignition than does a smaller cartridge, whether rifle or pistol. Likewise for a rifle cartridge as compared to a pistol...

Primers are designed to function through a specific dimension of flash-hole, and enlarging the cross-sectional area of a flash-hole can lead to a more explosive type of ignition of the powder charge, giving possibly-damaging pressures.

Primer manufacturers deserve credit for the amount of uniformity between brands, as well as uniformity of their primers' ignition characteristics...Between brands, there is a certain variation in temperature and/or length of time of the mini-explosion--as you say, nano-seconds.

Hope this helps, Art

El Chimango Pete · March 17, 1999, 09:29 PM

Art: Actually, confirmed it would seem by the erratic (though on the low end) velocities of the rounds i tried, anywhere from 700 to 740 fps, all other things being equal except mixed headstamps (didnt shoot enough for a worthwhile standard deviation; I wasn't bothered to limit the brand of shell variable but would have if this had been a 'project') - Whatever goes on at the flashole must be pretty complex, a 'supersonic orifice jet', suppose one could call it, and could depend on the actual shape of the 'jet' nozzle... just guessing - but having three jets would certainly complicate matters beyond any possible predictability!
I destroyed the shells mainly because they could wind up on a range to be picked up by another unwary reloader.

March 13, 1999, 05:46 PM	#1
El Chimango Pete Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 1999 Location: Sierras de Cordoba - Argentina Posts: 352	I've run into a lot (about 300!) of 45 ACP brass - Argentine army, issue is Berdan - that has been drilled in the center, so they have three flash holes. I tried a few with CCI standard primers, they seat ok and velocities measure up reasonably well (IPSC, with 5 gn Unique - ok, i like the smell - and 230 gn lead rn.: apparently they work... now, am I pushing my luck?

March 14, 1999, 12:21 AM	#2
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	This is one of those deals which could easily get dangerous, but up to a point is just fine. That is, so long as you're staying with light loads, you're okay. Even at full power, the .45ACP is a low-intensity cartridge, and you're way below Max. Stay there! I'd keep that brass separate, or paint the case head red..."Light Loads Only". And DON'T EVER DO THIS WITH A RIFLE CARTRIDGE!!! Later, Art

March 15, 1999, 10:46 PM	#3
Michael Carlin Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Fredericksburg, VA USA Posts: 193	I have been thinking about this for several days now. Email me, I will give you 300 pieces of once fired brass if you will promise to throw this stuff away! You pay the shipping I will GIVE you the brass, you throw this junk away. OK? ------------------ Ni ellegimit carborundum esse! Yours In Marksmanship http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished michael

March 16, 1999, 12:37 PM	#4
El Chimango Pete Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 1999 Location: Sierras de Cordoba - Argentina Posts: 352	Michael - much appreciate your concern! And tahnks Art, though i tried and chronographed the light loads shown (no noticeable difference with standard Boxers in velocity or pressure signs like flattened heads etc.) I had already come to the conclusion - that this (well named) junk could be unpredictable - the shells have been destroyed. Thought of shipping them to Saddam Hussein but heard he doesn't reload (not 45's; perhaps all sorts of other more nasty stuff) I'm not sure of the actual details of the combustion around the flash-holes, there must be a flame front that propagates through the powder (measurable in nanoseconds no doubt). The question must be similar to that of the 'empty space' in large cases (such as the 45 LC which I load quite a lot - dat be de one! ). Thanks also for the offer of free brass... my Scottish ancestors tell me to accept (though not that badly strapped! - on principle) but my Argentine experience tells me that i would go from the customs desk at the post office to the nearest jailhouse to await the Judges attentions. Still - wonder what actual process can cause pressure differences from primers? Using a magnum primer vs. standard - or variations between Federal and CCI and RWS-Nobel for instance? or using 'rifle' for 'pistol'? (all other things being equal) Peter Knight (aka 'El Chimango Pete') [This message has been edited by Elchimango (edited March 16, 1999).]

March 16, 1999, 05:04 PM	#5
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Elchimango: Keep in mind that the larger granules of the slower-burning powders need more heat for ignition than the finer granules of fast stuff. Also, the volumes of the charges of most rifles are greater than for most pistols. Most Magnum charges are of the larger/slower powders. So, a Magnum cartridge's powder charge needs more "Oomph" to get a uniform and complete ignition than does a smaller cartridge, whether rifle or pistol. Likewise for a rifle cartridge as compared to a pistol... Primers are designed to function through a specific dimension of flash-hole, and enlarging the cross-sectional area of a flash-hole can lead to a more explosive type of ignition of the powder charge, giving possibly-damaging pressures. Primer manufacturers deserve credit for the amount of uniformity between brands, as well as uniformity of their primers' ignition characteristics...Between brands, there is a certain variation in temperature and/or length of time of the mini-explosion--as you say, nano-seconds. Hope this helps, Art

March 17, 1999, 09:29 PM	#6
El Chimango Pete Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 1999 Location: Sierras de Cordoba - Argentina Posts: 352	Art: Actually, confirmed it would seem by the erratic (though on the low end) velocities of the rounds i tried, anywhere from 700 to 740 fps, all other things being equal except mixed headstamps (didnt shoot enough for a worthwhile standard deviation; I wasn't bothered to limit the brand of shell variable but would have if this had been a 'project') - Whatever goes on at the flashole must be pretty complex, a 'supersonic orifice jet', suppose one could call it, and could depend on the actual shape of the 'jet' nozzle... just guessing - but having three jets would certainly complicate matters beyond any possible predictability! I destroyed the shells mainly because they could wind up on a range to be picked up by another unwary reloader.