.380?

[nanney1]

Every so often I think about picking up a Ruger LCP II. But, I'm not crazy about the .380 caliber. I would use it for pocket carry and jogging with a belly band.

Tried running with a fanny pack and a S&W 442 but it was a bit heavy and jossled around if it was on my back and was awkward if I switched it to the front. Threw off my stride and wrecked my knees for a month. Probably should have got a belly band then and kept the 442.

Every time I look at an LCP in a gun store I think how small it is but I always hand it back.

Anyone like the LCP II and the .380 caliber? Anyone jog with one?

[buckey]

I carry one every time I take a walk, carries in my nylon shorts great. It may only be a .380 but Hell it's still better then a stick.

[MandolinMan]

I know where you're coming from. 380acp isn't my preferred caliber, but as someone that jogs outdoors regularly also, I found myself leaving even my smaller 9mm's at home because they were just to cumbersome to run with.

I purchased an LCP strictly for carrying while out running and its gradually become my EDC. It's reliably fed all the brass and steel cased ammo I've fed it.

While .380 isn't ideal, eight rounds with a quick reload available is better than the pistol sitting at home in your safe.

edit to add: Don't overlook the original LCP. They can be had very inexpensively and the trigger on the newer production models really isn't too bad.

[nanney1]

Originally Posted by MandolinMan

I know where you're coming from. 380acp isn't my preferred caliber, but as someone that jogs outdoors regularly also, I found myself leaving even my smaller 9mm's at home because they were just to cumbersome to run with.

I purchased an LCP strictly for carrying while out running and its gradually become my EDC. It's reliably fed all the brass and steel cased ammo I've fed it.

While .380 isn't ideal, eight rounds with a quick reload available is better than the pistol sitting at home in your safe.

edit to add: Don't overlook the original LCP. They can be had very inexpensively and the trigger on the newer production models really isn't too bad.

The reviews on the newer II models really promote the trigger. However, PSA has the LCP for $169 and the lowest I've seen the II recently is $249.

[Auto5]

My LCP gets almost as much carry time as my compact 9mm edc and more than my S&W 642. With the mag guts kits I have 8 rounds of .380 vs 5 rounds of .38 special in a smaller, slimmer package, which puts the little Ruger in the #2 position.

[buckey]

Mines a older one that I've had for a number of years, works great and beats the heck out of my 9mm XD-S that takes my shorts to the floor. All other times it's a G19 or XD-S with a real good leather belt.

[TailGator]

Some of the newer .380 ammo is performing pretty well. My choice is Critical Defense, but there are others.

The simple fact is that, because the round is smaller, it is possible to design .380 pistols smaller than 9 mm pistols, and they are thus more easily concealed. The margins between the smallest 9 mm pistols and .380s isn't huge, but it isn't zero, either.

I carry a 9 mm most commonly, but when I can't carry IWB, I would rather have a .380 in my pocket than go unarmed. (Mine is a Sig P238, but the concept is the same.) The .380 may not be The Best Round, but it is not inconsequential in its defensive abilities.

[Sharkbite]

I have one 380. Its a keltec 3AT. its sole role is as a “workout gun”. Light enough that it clips to my shorts without notice, but its there if i need it.

[T. O'Heir]

Apparently, jogging is bad for you. If just moving your purse to the front damaged your knees something wasn't right in the first place.
"....380 isn't ideal..." Depends on the ammo and sights on the pistol. Using the right bullet matters. Current Winchester Silvertips aren't as good as the old Silvertip, but they beat an FMJ.
The sights on most .380's are garbage. The Ruger LCP II's in particular are too small for good shot placement. You'd be better off with a 2", .38 Special, revolver.

[gw44]

The LCR II is a good gun do not let .380 cal bother you, the class I took they said to use your gun to get away a .380 would work just fine !!

[buckey]

I second that! A .380 still beats no gun at all. A .38 may be better but then again a .44 mag would still be better....... The point here is if a .380 is what fills the bill by all means carry a LCP .380, better then no gun!

[tallball]

I carry a micro 380 when I can't carry anything else. The LCP II is my favorite of the several I've owned. I prefer to carry a 38 or 9mm or 44 or 45. Sometimes a 380 is all I can carry. It's WAY better than nothing. I can empty my LCP II onto a medium-sized paper plate pretty fast at seven yards, easily. For self defense that meets my criteria for "good enough".

[kenny53]

I have my LCP in my pocket right now. It works well. The .380 is a 9mm, just a 9mm short.

[davidsog]

Every time I look at an LCP in a gun store I think how small it is but I always hand it back.

I know exactly how you feel. I did the same thing and not just with the LCP II but every small concealable pistol I could get my hands on.

My H&K USPc was great for most situations but needed something else to "throw in the pocket".

.380 is a good choice. Lethality studies place it in the upper category with evidence showing little to choose from in terms of stopping power a .380 to a .45. In fact, the .380 was one of the best pistol calibers to have in fight according to the data.

380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

.45 ACP
# of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power

I settled on a 9mm Parabellum over a .380 because I found one I actually thought was a .380 when I first was shown it, the SIG P365. I admit to being a little prejudice towards the 9mmP vs .380, too.

It is a little heavier than the .380's by a few ounces but surprisingly small to hold 11 rounds of 9mm Parabellum.

Get what is right for you and train with it. Being proficient is more important than caliber, make, or model. Just do not get anything smaller than a .380 or will be in the lethality category that has a double the failure to stop rate of the larger calibers.

[CDW4ME]

Kahr PM/CM 9mm in a Smartcarry - stick with 9mm as a minimum.

[davidsog]

stick with 9mm as a minimum.

My personal preference too. However I was rather surprised by the quantifiable data.

.380 has a smaller sample size and 9mm Parabellum has one of the larger samples. The data points to the .380 being one of the most effective pistol rounds one can choose.

.380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

9mm Luger
# of people shot - 456
# of hits - 1121
% of hits that were fatal - 24%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 34%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%

If we break down the most important elements of a gunfight in terms of lethality and "shooter out of the loop" we find three things:

1. Shot Placement (Accuracy)

2. Number of Rounds in the Target Area (Bring Enough Damage to End the Fight)

3. Caliber - Only in that our Caliber needs to be large enough to be included in the statistical group above the transition point where our chances of a "one-stop-shot" double. (.380 and larger).

So to have the best chance at good outcome should you ever to defend your life or those you love...

1. We need a pistol with good sights. Irregardless of your marksmanship skills, it is much more difficult to hit anything if we have no way of precisely gauging Point of Aim vs Point of Impact.

Although some manufactures are better than others and there is variation we will assume the manufacturer is competent enough to align barrel harmonics and design for reasonable accuracy. I encourage anyone buying a CCW to rent one at the range and shoot it before spending your money.

2. We need capacity to place multiple rounds in the Target Area to end the fight. Our "one-shot-stop" percentages tell us that planning for a minimum of three rounds in the Target Area is required to achieve a 100% stop rate is prudent. The more rounds we can bring to the fight without having to conduct a reload, the better.

3. Caliber needs to be .380 or larger. Although .380 is the "bottom of the scale" it is far from being the bottom performer.

[gw44]

My son carries a LCRII .380 I carry a Kahr C-9 that I would never give up, it works for me !!!

[Dano4734]

Myself I would put the money towards a glock 43 very light and it’s 9mm. I find it’s lighter than my 380 I own

[libiglou]

I would take a look at the sig p238. Its lightweight,accurate,has excellent sights(night) and you can shoot it all day without it hurting your hands.

However the other issue here is the holster. I think with the right holster you can pretty much carry a large variety of small handguns either in 380 or 9mm. I don't have much experience in that area since in my very liberal state I can only carry to the range and back.

[KyJim]

Those are interesting statistics. I'm assuming all the data collected is valid (there was a problem in this regard with Marshal and Sanow data but that is off-topic).

Of the .38 caliber-class pistols, the .380 had the second worst failure to incapacitate percentage:

.38spl = 17%
.380 = 16%
.45 acp = 14%
9mm = 13%
.40 S&W = 13%
.44 mag = 13%
.357 mag = 9%

You refer to the number of shots fired until incapacitation --- 1.76 for a .380 and 2.08 for .45 acp. However, if you look at all the calibers listed, the lowest number of shots fired until incapacitation is the lowly .22 at 1.38 rounds. Similarly the .22 had a higher incapacitation rate (60%) by one shot (to the torso or head) than .38 spl, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 acp, and .44 mag (and just one percent below .357 mag). This defies common sense unless there are other factors at work.

Accuracy doesn't explain it (accuracy defined as a hit to head or torso). All the .38 caliber and above handguns had similar accuracy rates except for .45 acp and .44 mag which had higher accuracy rates.

I suspect one thing happening is that those using a .22 tend to be less into guns, or at least handguns. They tend to fire one shot and stop, giving the attacker time to stop. On the other hand, those carrying a .45 acp are probably shooting two or three times quickly (maybe double taps). The same goes for those carrying .40 S&W or 9mm. They are often higher capacity, which encourages shooting multiple times. Thus, there are going to be a number of attackers shot multiple times before having the time to actually stop the attack.

There are probably other factors to take into account, as well. For example, the author mentions data from military encounters was used. A jihadist intent on martyring himself is often going to take more hits to incapacitate than a 16-year old punk who is surprised when somebody fights back. My assumption is that 9mm is used in most of these incidents.

Still, the data is interesting and does confirm that being armed with any gun is better than being unarmed.

BTW, I carry .380, .38 spl, 9mm, and .45 acp at times, so I'm not married to one caliber being the ultimate self-defense caliber.

[davidsog]

You are right in that the ability to incapacitate is about equal. In this study, incapacite is not dead, it simply means the attacker stopped the attack.

From the article:

On average, how many rounds did it take for the person to stop his violent action or be incapacitated?

What is telling in the smaller calibers is the percentage of people who were NOT incapacitated. The .32 caliber and smaller rounds have double the amount of attackers who failed to stop after the first hit.

.22 (short, long and long rifle)
# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

.380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

Some people will look at this data and say "He's telling us all to carry .22s". That's not true. Although this study showed that the percentages of people stopped with one shot are similar between almost all handgun cartridges, there's more to the story. Take a look at two numbers: the percentage of people who did not stop (no matter how many rounds were fired into them) and the one-shot-stop percentage. The lower caliber rounds (.22, .25, .32) had a failure rate that was roughly double that of the higher caliber rounds. The one-shot-stop percentage (where I considered all hits, anywhere on the body) trended generally higher as the round gets more powerful.

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power

Accuracy doesn't explain it

Accuracy is a base fundamental with every lethality study I have seen concluding the same thing. At close ranges, shot placement is much more important than caliber.

The failure to stop percentages I believe accurately show the trend. Even in Afghanistan, we experienced multiple instances of .22 caliber bullets (5.56mm) with good shot placement failing to stop an opponent.

Statistically, the sample size is very small in this study and your speculation is reasonable. One would be dismissing the data though based upon an assumption.

I think the author adequately address the issue:

In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these "psychological stops" occurring. The problem we have is when we don't get a psychological stop. If our attacker fights through the pain and continues to victimize us, we might want a round that causes the most damage possible.

[peacefulgary]

Don't get bogged down in the ballistics data.
The 380 auto is a good self defense caliber for close range protection.
And we are talking close range protection here, so don't worry about the sights (or lack there of) either.
I would even recommend the generation 2 LCP (not the LCP II).
Even smaller and more pocket friendly than the LCP II, and the trigger is just fine...much better than the generation 1 LCP.

Besides, you're an avid jogger...
Shoot them 7 times in the legs then just out run them! ;-)

[peacefulgary]

There's an old joke that everyone talks about .45's, 9mm, .40's, and .357 magnums....but everyone carries a .38 snubbie or a pocket .380!

[tarhealcracker]

I saw a fascinating FBI study on actual pistol engagements showing not much difference in 38 cal (.380, 9mm, 38 special) combat results. Now the results for 40, 44 and 45 cal and on up were markedly more lethal.

The most surprising thing for me was the 38 special performance, in that it was in the same results category as the .380 and 9mm. Go figure. Sorry I can't direct you to that report but Google it and I'm sure it will turn up.

I'm sure this is going to chap a lot of asses in the firearms community and maybe change a few minds. The recent popularity of .380 pistols may be vindicated.

OPPS: I saw the data here. Go back to post 14. Stupid ole me!

[Sharkbite]

I saw the data here. Go back to post 14. Stupid ole me!

That is NOT an FBI study. Just some dude collecting data where he could.