Why aren't pump action hunting rifles more popular?

[Picher]

Borrowed a Rem Mod. 14 to go deer hunting when I was 15 and loved carrying it, but didn't shoot at a deer. It was smooth, had great ergonomics and I've always loved that design, but have never owned one.

I'm a bolt-action guy, probably because I'm a handloader and an accuracy nut. Some other reasons for shooting a bolt gun is that they tend to work in cold, icy conditions and they're easier to keep clean and rust-free than most other rifle types.

I've shot in running deer and other speed competitions against some guys using pumps, levers, and semi-autos and won, because I had shot more than they did. For instance, one guy used a pump and brought the rifle down to pump it for each subsequent shot. Another using a semi-auto, forgot to chamber the first round. I've practiced working the bolt from the shoulder on long-action bolt guns and am much faster than most with the same action. Only three things are needed for bolt gun speed: 1. Practice, 2 Practice, and 3. PRACTICE!

Use snap caps to simulate live fire without hurting the firing pin.

[Jack O'Conner]

Remington pump action 30-06 rifles are very common here in Pennsylvania. For the hunters that I know, it's the one rifle for deer and bear outlook. I've also heard this rifle referred to locally as the "Amish machine gun." Amish hunters make large party drive hunts for the most part.

Jack

[Slopemeno]

A friend of mine had a 760 in '06 for a number of years, and it was incredibly accurate with plain ol' Remington factory ammo and a cheapie scope.

[leadcounsel]

Pointy bullets and magazine tubes don't mix.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

I sometimes wonder why those old 14a and 141's never caught on with more hunters. As both models had a good selection of calibers from 25 cal up to the potent 35 Rem. Maybe they had mechanical issues during their time. I just don't recall. I've only had one 141 model in my hands for a look see many years ago and at the time for as old as the rifle was it seemed to be quite functional but a little on the heavy side. YES!! I'll bet that's the reason they never caught on. >Weight!!< Savage's 99s Winchesters 94s & Marlin 36-336 were considered the deer rifle of choice back in the 40s thru the 60s because of their light weight quick handling abilities. I believe those Rem pumps {weighed near 8 lbs un-loaded.} no doubt that could have been their Achilles heel when speaking of those two obsolescent models. (14a & 141a) If I didn't already own a model 742 carbine in 30-06 I know would be interested in Rem's pump carbine. Maybe that {Black Rifle} 760-P model with its Ghost Ring Sighting. Who knows. As I have one vacancy spot in the safe yet._

[Slopemeno]

The 14 and 141 had a machined receiver- the 760 series was folded from a sheet of steel with the "hangars" induction brazed in the ends of the u-shaped receiver stamping. Bottom line- cheaper to manufacture.

[reynolds357]

In my opinion they are not popular because they are not as practical as or as accurate as a semi automatic.

[WV_gunner]

Winchester holds 2 patents from Browning on pump action rifles, one in .30 and one in a .44. They hold 44 patents from, they only used 10. The 2 pump rifles are 2 of the many they didn't use. I'm guessing they didn't want another manufacture getting them but didn't see a market for it.

[hornetguy]

I read an article several years ago about the most successful deer hunting family in the US... they lived somewhere in the northeast. As I recall, nearly every one of them used either a pump or semi-auto Remington in 30-06. I think their name was Benoit, and there were quite a few of them. I think I remember reading that they wouldn't use a bolt action, just the Remingtons.

[Picher]

The Benoits were/are fantastic deer hunters from Vermont, I believe. They've written articles and books on deer hunting that are fantastic. They hunt woods and get close shots, but may need more shots to finish one off if a twig or tree gets in the way.

I prefer a bolt-action. I can't recall when I've missed a deer on the first shot and got it on a second or third opportunity. That's made me very careful to get a clear shot for the first opportunity. I'd rather let a deer go than risk a deflected or poor shot, because I can hunt 6 days a week and it's more about enjoying hunting than getting meat.

[Longshot4]

You know after the big one WWII our fathers didn't have much money. The Levers won the west and the pumps were fast actions. Most of those rifles were designed for iron sights. Even the 870 pump was in use to clear larger areas fast. That is why the pump's and Levers were hot back then. My dad used a 94 as I did. It was the way to go and they took a lot of deer. There were very few scopes after the War. My deer gun today is a Browning BLR It is fast, accurate, powerful but it has a 1-5 power scope. That's the difference in then and now. Optic technology...

[Picher]

There's no doubt in my mind that optics improvements and lowered costs over the years have really made the bolt-action a much more formidable hunting weapon, eclipsing all other types of hunting rifles in many states.

I had one of the first Savage 110s made, buying it in it's first year. It was a .30-06 and had a low comb.

Being a student and part-time employee, I couldn't afford a scope for it for several months. As soon as I could, I bought a Weaver 2.5X scope and Weaver Detachable Top Mounts.

Then, got a Bishop semi-inletted blank which I sculpted similar to the form of a Weatherby MK5. What a difference!!! The original stock kicked the heck out of me, but the Weatherby design was fabulous. I didn't even have a recoil pad on it.

That made a very nice deer hunting rig, at the time. For practice, several of us hunted woodchucks, crows and foxes with our deer rifles. Some years, I was able to average over 200 yards per chuck with that rig.

[jimbob86]

I think, assuming there aren't any reliability problems, that a rem 7600 in .35 whelen or something like that with a little 18" barrel would be at least as good of a "guide gun" as a lever action 45-70 plus with much better ballistics down range making it far more versatile. But it still wouldn't look as cool I guess.

A .35 Whelen with an 18" barrel would be a very fine thing for setting the landscape afire, contributing to hearing loss and messing up night vision ..... I think, and not much else. The "much better ballistics down range" of the .35 Whelen (as compared to the .45-70) comes in part from higher velocity ..... much of which would be lost in a carbine length barrel ......

Shortening barrels on large capacity bottle necked cased calibers tends to make for "more show and less go" ......

[jimbob86]

Question: Several posters have claimed that a particular pump action rifle (I forget which) had a "free floated barrel" ...... how is this possible when the pump handle is attached to the bottom of the barrel?

[Wyosmith]

On the Remington 760 and its variants the pump handle is not mounted to the barrel. It's mounted to a steel post that is attached to the front of the receiver. So those rifles indeed do have a free floated barrel.

[jimbob86]

They do indeed have a free floated barrel.

Which it would appear to me to help practical accuracy less than the lack of a solid forend would hinder it .... where would one attach the shooting sling?

[Unlicensed Dremel]

After reading this thread over and thinking about it some more, I'm convinced that pump rifles are not really underrepresented in hunting, but ARE underrepresented in self-defense rifles. We talked about the Rem 7615p above, and it's a bit surprising to me that these aren't more popular for the self-defense crowd. I don't care how good or perfectly tuned your AR/AK/FAL/M14/SKS/VZ58/PTR91/CETME is, it is still, on average, less reliable than a pump. It's still going to have on average, more jams per 5K rounds than a pump. And reliability is THE primary concern for a self-defense rifle. And being just almost as fast, it's seems that an argument could be made that they're preferable to a semi-auto for most instances of actual real civilian self-defense. No, they won't have the accuracy of the AR15 in all likelihood, which is undoubtedly why they're not popular for this use, but they'll be more reliable than even the best clean & lubed AR15. And frankly, actual real self-defense encounters by definition happen at very short ranges where accuracy isn't needed, because well, if you could run rather than shoot, it typically is not valid self-defense. Pumps CAN jam of course, like any weapon. But the average pump is going to have fewer jams than the best semi for every 5K or 10K rounds, even if only a few fewer.

But the reality is that even though this "self defense crowd" or market, which includes me, is very large, the actual instances of self-defense are relatively small (though bigger than the antis would have you believe), and moreover, 1 shot or NO shots is usually all that's needed to resolve the situation, so you don't hear about semi-auto jams leading to death mayhem and destruction from criminals... because it doesn't. The accuracy and ergonomics win the day (and the extra speed & "fun factor" - though arguably a pump is as fun or more fun than a semi - personal preference)... thus everyone loves them some ARs, myself included. But as I mentioned above, this thread has me thinking about a Rem 7615P, and if I could get one in 6.8 SPC, I'd jump on it like a duck on a june bug.

I'm not sure if it would be more fair to say: For typical non-WROL self-defense, a semi trumps a pump, but for WROL, a pump trumps a semi. Or the other way around - more valid and realistic to say: For typical non-WROL self-defense, a pump trumps a semi, but for WROL, a semi trumps a pump. I mean, in WROL, you're shooting MORE, which puts a premium on reliability. But you're also potentially shooting longer distances, if your goal is to eradicate and demoralize an occupying force with guerrilla attacks & assassinations, so that puts a premium on accuracy. So it cuts both ways. (of course, not all WROL scenarios involve an occupying force, so standard self-defense ranges will still be the norm in many potential WROL situations, where accuracy would still not be at a premium).

As for fun at the range, obviously the more accurate the better, and that favors ARs (over allegedly-inaccurate pump rifles - but is this really true?).

I guess in the end it comes down to gritty conditions or lack thereof and cleaning/maintenance level that you undertake. If you don't like to ever clean your guns, and/or live in a dust storm area like Iraq, a pump is gonna be preferred over a semi for self-defense. But in wetter climes and a regular cleaning regiment, a semi would trump a pump.

Now, when or if WROL really did/does happen, the reality is this: No matter how busy you are or think you are now, you'd be a lot busier than you are now, every second of every day if the S hit the F - everything you do would be about survival, and without modern energy and conveniences, every minute of the day would be taken up with tasks related to basic survival needs of you and family/friends. In that scenario, one of the last things on earth you'd want to mess with is cleaning your self-defense weapon. There's just ain't nobody that got time for that. You would of course, if absolutely necessary, but not unless and until absolutely necessary to make it run. That bodes in favor of pumps for WROL potentially, vs. semis for everyday normal self-defense. Agree or not?

P.S. I understand that many don't think WROL is in the realm of possibilities - I do hope you're right.. You may of course ignore my question in that event.

[.45 Vet]

.... where would one attach the shooting sling?

My father never had a sling for his 141 Remy Gamemaster. That may help to explain the lack of remaining blueing where he carried it for so many dear seasons. I found a small clamp-on-style swivel that mounts to the front of the magazine tube when I gave the rifle to my son. Being a lefty he just naturally took to shooting pumps.

It's also a match to the model 121 Fieldmaster in .22 that he got on his 12th birthday. Dad gave me the 121 on my 12th b-day, and I passed it on in like fashion.

Near as I can tell, the 141 in .35 Rem was built in April 1938, the 121 in .22 left New York in July of 1937. They're both still good shooters.

Here's a funny for you. The 121 is the only tube fed rifle I was ever able to mix shorts, longs, or long rifle in any order and never have mis-feed. Locating any .22 Long ammo is the cause for another post...

[PHEASANTPETE]

Talk about an ugly duckling. http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm That thing looks like a Frankenstein rifle. Why not just get the AR it does a poor job trying to pretend to look like?

The 7600 is really closer to a semi-auto that is manually operated by a sliding action. I guess one could say that about many slides. Why no one else makes one? I ask why doesn't Remington currently make a lever acton that do sell well. Remington instead makes 7*0's that look like crap and have nothing to do with a 700.

Maybe there marketing department figures there are enough people who will buy a remington for the name and like to be different. They are just part of a investment banking group now so who knows why they do anything nowadays.

[jimbob86]

My father never had a sling for his 141 Remy Gamemaster. That may help to explain the lack of remaining blueing where he carried it for so many dear seasons.

Oh I was not referring to the sling as used for a carrying strap .... "shooting sling" as in an aid in steadying the rifle.

All the talk of the "free floating barrel" making a particular pump gun as accurate as a bolt gun made me wonder where one would attach the shooting sling .....

[Water-Man]

"they won't have the accuracy of the AR-15"

Actually, they have better accuracy than most.

[PHEASANTPETE]

"Actually, they have better accuracy than most." Than most what? Shotguns? Then I agree, Ar's? No way. They may be more accurate than a well used M-16 that is poorly maintained. A good issue M-16 will punch 6" circles at 500 meters in the hands of an expert with iron sights. I doubt the 7600 would do so without serious tuning.

Never heard of them being used by target shooters. They make a fine deer rifle and will group under 2 MOA with most loads which makes the 7600 acceptable for field use. Bolts are inherently a tighter lockup. The 7600 chamber is a little looser to allow easier feeding and more realiable extraction.

[Water-Man]

Than an AR-15.

We're not talking 500yds. Do you hunt at 500yds? Most people don't and you're not going to be hunting deer at 500 yds. with an AR.

A modern Remington pump hunting rifle will outshoot MOST ARs at 100yds..

[PHEASANTPETE]

I was illustrating the accuracy of an gov't issue M-16 in good working order vs. 7600. Nothing was said about hunting. That is a red herring argument.

I did not make the generalized claim that 7600 were more accurate than AR's. There may individual case were one rifle vs. another is but that general claim is not true when comparing AR's to 7600's.

The 7600 is accurate enough as I earlier stated for most hunting within 300 yds. A 500 meter shot is ethical on a white-tail or smaller with an AR in 7.62, 7-08, or 260 Remington and most critically the shooter behind the rifle. The right bullet, a longer barrel (22-26") for improved velocity, low crosswind, proper angle, proficient shooter and proper data card make it an ethical shoot for a very few. Most have no business past 200 yds IMO. I used to be able to shoot like that but that was when I competed and the gov't paid for the ammo. I would limited myself to 350m maybe 400m with some extra practice because the worst thing I could do is wound an animal I could not recover. That is against my ethics besides silently stalking closer would be more challenging and really hunting.

[Water-Man]

You need to get your stories straight.

In the first place, I quoted what someone else stated in this thread about an AR-15 being more accurate than a 7600.

Secondly, most people think of an AR-15 as 5.56/223. Same with M16.

Third, the OP began by talking about pump rifles and HUNTING. Not many RESPONSIBLE hunters use 5.56/223 to shoot deer beyond 100 yards.

Most AR-15s that I've come across do about 1.5-2.0MOA at 100yds. The more expensive ones do better. The 7600s I've shot have been MOA or better.

I'm done. Enjoy your red herrings and M-16s.