10mm guns could be chambered in 9x23 win? - Page 3

rock185 · October 7, 2018, 04:25 PM

Really interesting discussion generated from the OP's post you guys. I recall reading of that 9mm Mag. 115gr at 1475 FPS back in the day. No doubt easily achieved with the 9X23 Win. now days. Perhaps boutique loaders are already doing that? FWIW, I experimented a bit with Col. Cooper's "Super 9"/Super Cooper, using .223 cases trimmed to .900". In a 5" barrel, I got to 1625 FPS with a 115 JHP before deciding that discretion is the better part of valor, and not pushing my experiments further. Cooper's gun had a longer 6" barrel, and IIRC, experimenters using Cooper's personal pistol achieved results significantly surpassing mine.

COSteve, 165gr at 1589 FPS is impressive! That is a "fire breathing" 10mm load for sure. I don't recall achieving much more with 165/170 grain bullets than 1400 FPS or so in 5" semi-auto pistols. I had a S&W 610 revolver with 5" barrel that routinely produced higher velocities than my 5" semi-autos. Have to check some old chronograph notes, but doubt similar bullet weights in the revolver got anywhere near what your 6" gun produced.

74A95 · October 7, 2018, 05:11 PM

Cooper used a barrel that measured just under 6.5", and in the .223 cases approached 1750 fps with 125 grain bullets, and 2000 fps with 90 grain bullets.

Cooper, J. 1973. Debut of the “Super Cooper” 9mm Magnum. Guns and Ammo, December 1973, Vol. 17, #12, pp. 30-33.

rock185 · October 7, 2018, 05:35 PM

74A95, thanks for the info. I didn't remember the actual numbers, but your info is consistent with my recollection that others far exceeded my results with that longer barrel.

stagpanther · October 7, 2018, 07:14 PM

This has been a very interesting thread--and has reminded me it has been a very long time since I fired my 9 x 25 Dillon, so I whipped up some cartridges and will see how it goes. The Glock 20 sf has never been a gun I could get a really good grip on; but it is powerful.

Radny97 · October 7, 2018, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5whiskey

At the end of the day, converting a 10mm pistol to 9x23 isn't super cheap and simple. There's a barrel change, mag swap (or modification), and for reliability i would want a slide dedicated.

FWIW 9x23 is capable of 357 mag ballistics with all bullet weights, in a pistol with roughly the same dimensional capacity as 9mm. Glock should partner with Winchester and be all over this. There would be a market for true, full 357 mag capabilities in a service sized high capacity semi-auto.

Yep

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

stagpanther · October 8, 2018, 01:40 PM

Here are the results of some of the warmer Dillon loads above--though not my hottest. The TacTx's have a bucket-size hollow point, so they peel velocity off fast. I'm going to order some extreme penetrators out of curiousity.

The glock 20 is the perfect platform in terms of shooting the "big bangers"with aplomb--my ability to shoot it well unfortunately isn't what I wish it could be.

COSteve · October 11, 2018, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rock185

Really interesting discussion generated from the OP's post you guys. I recall reading of that 9mm Mag. 115gr at 1475 FPS back in the day. No doubt easily achieved with the 9X23 Win. now days. Perhaps boutique loaders are already doing that? FWIW, I experimented a bit with Col. Cooper's "Super 9"/Super Cooper, using .223 cases trimmed to .900". In a 5" barrel, I got to 1625 FPS with a 115 JHP before deciding that discretion is the better part of valor, and not pushing my experiments further. Cooper's gun had a longer 6" barrel, and IIRC, experimenters using Cooper's personal pistol achieved results significantly surpassing mine.
COSteve, 165gr at 1589 FPS is impressive! That is a "fire breathing" 10mm load for sure. I don't recall achieving much more with 165/170 grain bullets than 1400 FPS or so in 5" semi-auto pistols. I had a S&W 610 revolver with 5" barrel that routinely produced higher velocities than my 5" semi-autos. Have to check some old chronograph notes, but doubt similar bullet weights in the revolver got anywhere near what your 6" gun produced.

The 'secret' is the 6" KKM target barrel vs a 4.6"-5" stock barrel. Power Pistol absolutely loves longer target barrels with a bit tighter chambers. As I said in other threads here, my neighbor's stock length G20, shooting my handloads, produced something around to 175+fps slower velocities than my custom G20L did. In addition, my G20L also produces less muzzle rise and a lower felt recoil (more of a push) because the extra 4¾oz of weight at the muzzle balances the pistol better, especially with the 17+1 rds on board ready for anything.

28% longer sight radius, better balance, smoother recoil control, less muzzle flip, faster recovery for second shots, and all in a package that's more compact, lighter, holds 3 times the capacity, and produces higher velocities with larger, heavier bullets than a 6" S&W 686. What's not to like about a 6" G40?

Sevens · April 21, 2019, 12:06 PM

I missed this (recent!) conversation the first time around and I will add my props for all the great discussion and commentary that is in it.

I found this thread with a quick search for 9x23, because I came in to a deal for a small stash of factory new, primed Winchester 9x23 Win brass. I couldn't pass it up.

The timing is fortuitous -- I recently added a pistol in an even more oddball chambering and one that absolutely belongs in this conversation: a Smith & Wesson Performance Center 3566 Limited, in the obscure .356 TS&W.

I'd love to hear more chatter on this subject and on the .356 TSW round. Doomed from day-minus-one it seems. Now I have an accessory and factory fitted 9x19 barrel for this new-to-me grail gun, but I have the original .356 TSW barrel as well. And as I have heard... I can lop 1.5mm off some 9x23 Win brass and have .356 TSW brass as a result?

Let's hear more about all of these nutty, ballsy 9mm's!

74A95 · April 21, 2019, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sevens

I missed this (recent!) conversation the first time around and I will add my props for all the great discussion and commentary that is in it.

I found this thread with a quick search for 9x23, because I came in to a deal for a small stash of factory new, primed Winchester 9x23 Win brass. I couldn't pass it up.

The timing is fortuitous -- I recently added a pistol in an even more oddball chambering and one that absolutely belongs in this conversation: a Smith & Wesson Performance Center 3566 Limited, in the obscure .356 TS&W.

I'd love to hear more chatter on this subject and on the .356 TSW round. Doomed from day-minus-one it seems. Now I have an accessory and factory fitted 9x19 barrel for this new-to-me grail gun, but I have the original .356 TSW barrel as well. And as I have heard... I can lop 1.5mm off some 9x23 Win brass and have .356 TSW brass as a result?

Let's hear more about all of these nutty, ballsy 9mm's!

You might want to start a new thread with 356 TSW in the title 'cause it might get lost here.

Sevens · April 21, 2019, 12:30 PM

Also-- the 9x25, a 10mm case necked down to 9mm: is this brass easily formed with simply a sizing die and some case lube, going slowly? I have experience necking .44 Mag brass to .357-44 Bain & Davis and that round is precisely that easy.

Sevens · April 21, 2019, 12:31 PM

Quote:

You might want to start a new thread with 356 TSW in the title 'cause it might get lost here.

That's an option, but this thread will (hopefully!) attract all the great contributors who already posted here. And it certainly seems that .356 TSW is wholly relevant to the conversation.

The .356TSW can't really support a conversation by itself... on The Firing Line Forums... in the year 2019.

rock185 · April 21, 2019, 04:05 PM

It seems the .356 TSW was created as a rule beater cartridge back in the day. IIRC, IPSC or whoever decided trying to make major with 9X19MM was dangerous because it exceeded SAAMI pressure limits, so it was disallowed in sanctioned competition. The .356 TSW with it's longer case was a different cartridge without a SAAMI pressure limits and was therefore allowed. An interesting work around to comply with the rules. The Winchester 9X23 cases could be shortened, but they get so much thicker internally toward the base, I think there might be issues with seating some bullets without bulging the case. Shortened Starline 9X23 Comp brass might be worthy of consideration.

I did some work with Col. Cooper's Super 9 cartridge back in the '80s, but since then, my "nutty ballsy" 9MMs have been more pedestrian,i.e., 38 Super, Super Comp, 38TJ and 9X23 Winchester.

Ruger45LC · April 22, 2019, 07:36 AM

There are a lot of cool options out there, but to me at least, it seems the 357 SIG is just hard to beat for that caliber. You get a 9mm sized gun, nearly 9mm capacity and it can scream if you handload for it.

A little while back I did some experimenting with using actual .357" bullets in the 357 SIG and from a 4.5" KKM 357 SIG barrel in a Glock .40 and Starline brass, I was able to run a 125gr XTP to 1620 fps avg, a 140gr XTP to 1460 fps avg and a 158gr XTP to 1390 fps. A 6" barrel added anywhere from 60-100 fps on top of this, less for the hefty 158gr, more for the 125gr.

SATRP · April 22, 2019, 08:39 AM

Hi Radny97,

Why didn't the 9x23 Win catch on when it was introduced? What would be its intended purpose?

What the heck happened to the .45 Win Mag?

My prediction is the 10MM is on life support. It's exclusively a niche cartridge. Jeff Cooper returned home to his beloved 1911-A1 .45 ACP after birthing commercial production of the 10MM.

Marketing is not much more than dandified propaganda. Short magnums were all the rage a decade ago. Most shorties are dead and buried. Mega magnums are heading in the same direction. Hunters who've regained their senses come to figure out that the century plus year old '06 still kills big game as dead as any mega magnum. There's only one degree of dead and that's dead. The '06 wins the head-to-head race.

tipoc · April 22, 2019, 11:10 AM

Wiley Clapp tells us some about the .356 TSW. It was developed for competition by S&W. The TSW meant Team Smith & Wesson. It was a proprietary cartridge chambered in guns made by S&W.

The idea was a common one at the time and went to an issue, or aimed at resolving an issue, in both IPSC and USPSA. That issue related to power factors and the difference between major and minor categories in competitive shooting.

Up until 1996 or so to make Major you had to have a power Factor of 175. PF was set by taking the bullet weight times the velocity and dividing that by 1,000. A PF of 175 or above was major and below that was minor. This favored heavier bullets.

Now there were other things going on the competitive shooting at the time that developed into issues and that shooters have tried to resolve but I can't get into that in a post. So...

Folks figured out that if you took the 38 Super cartridge and loaded it up you could make major. This was true especially in guns with compensators. You could do this with a heavier or lighter bullet, either way. As 38 Super is essentially a 9mm cartridge you had increased mag capacity over the 45 acp and less recoil with a lighter bullet especially with a compensator. So 38 Super came to dominate competitive run and gun shooting from the 1980s till the early part of this century. It also led to a good number of competitors overloading the Super and blowing up guns.

Several things happened as a result. One was that the 9x23 Winchester developed (which was the same oal as the 38 Super) and the .356 TSW (which was a bit longer than the 9mm but could fit in guns made for the 9mm parabellum. The 38 Super Comp was also developed, a rimless 38 Super. These were 9mm cartridges in diameter. They got about 1400 fps with a 125 gr. bullet and were excellent cartridges.

But shortly after the appearance of these on the market the rules in IPSC changed. PF was lowered to 165. This meant that the standard 9mm could make major. This basically killed the market for these. Other changes were made as well.

So here...

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art.../4/29/356-tsw/

http://www.ammo-one.com/356TWS.html

From Forgotten Weapons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2jU5cp4WCg

tipoc

HiBC · April 23, 2019, 03:50 AM

A minor detail regarding the breech face:

The rim dia of 9 mm s .394 The rim dia of the semi rimmed 38 Super is .406

The 10 mm is .424.

I don't know how Colt cut the breech faces.IMO,I'd check a 38 Super slide to see f the breech freely accepts 10 mm.My Colt 38 Super slide does.

My brother had a 9mm bbl fitted to interchange on his 38 Super race gun. Cheap brass. Losing Starline is a bummer..I suggested he have a dedicated extractor fitted. It runs fine.

.
When thinking ejectors,think radius. A 38 Super is .203,a 10 mm is .212.Thats a .009 difference in radius. I'd think the slide would be cut for the same ejector.. But,I have not done a 10mm.

October 7, 2018, 04:25 PM	#51
rock185 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2001 Location: Out West in Rim Country Posts: 1,093	Really interesting discussion generated from the OP's post you guys. I recall reading of that 9mm Mag. 115gr at 1475 FPS back in the day. No doubt easily achieved with the 9X23 Win. now days. Perhaps boutique loaders are already doing that? FWIW, I experimented a bit with Col. Cooper's "Super 9"/Super Cooper, using .223 cases trimmed to .900". In a 5" barrel, I got to 1625 FPS with a 115 JHP before deciding that discretion is the better part of valor, and not pushing my experiments further. Cooper's gun had a longer 6" barrel, and IIRC, experimenters using Cooper's personal pistol achieved results significantly surpassing mine. COSteve, 165gr at 1589 FPS is impressive! That is a "fire breathing" 10mm load for sure. I don't recall achieving much more with 165/170 grain bullets than 1400 FPS or so in 5" semi-auto pistols. I had a S&W 610 revolver with 5" barrel that routinely produced higher velocities than my 5" semi-autos. Have to check some old chronograph notes, but doubt similar bullet weights in the revolver got anywhere near what your 6" gun produced. __________________ COTEP 640, NRA Life

October 7, 2018, 05:35 PM	#53
rock185 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2001 Location: Out West in Rim Country Posts: 1,093	74A95, thanks for the info. I didn't remember the actual numbers, but your info is consistent with my recollection that others far exceeded my results with that longer barrel. __________________ COTEP 640, NRA Life

April 21, 2019, 12:06 PM	#58
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I missed this (recent!) conversation the first time around and I will add my props for all the great discussion and commentary that is in it. I found this thread with a quick search for 9x23, because I came in to a deal for a small stash of factory new, primed Winchester 9x23 Win brass. I couldn't pass it up. The timing is fortuitous -- I recently added a pistol in an even more oddball chambering and one that absolutely belongs in this conversation: a Smith & Wesson Performance Center 3566 Limited, in the obscure .356 TS&W. I'd love to hear more chatter on this subject and on the .356 TSW round. Doomed from day-minus-one it seems. Now I have an accessory and factory fitted 9x19 barrel for this new-to-me grail gun, but I have the original .356 TSW barrel as well. And as I have heard... I can lop 1.5mm off some 9x23 Win brass and have .356 TSW brass as a result? Let's hear more about all of these nutty, ballsy 9mm's! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

April 21, 2019, 12:30 PM	#60
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Also-- the 9x25, a 10mm case necked down to 9mm: is this brass easily formed with simply a sizing die and some case lube, going slowly? I have experience necking .44 Mag brass to .357-44 Bain & Davis and that round is precisely that easy. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

April 21, 2019, 04:05 PM	#62
rock185 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2001 Location: Out West in Rim Country Posts: 1,093	It seems the .356 TSW was created as a rule beater cartridge back in the day. IIRC, IPSC or whoever decided trying to make major with 9X19MM was dangerous because it exceeded SAAMI pressure limits, so it was disallowed in sanctioned competition. The .356 TSW with it's longer case was a different cartridge without a SAAMI pressure limits and was therefore allowed. An interesting work around to comply with the rules. The Winchester 9X23 cases could be shortened, but they get so much thicker internally toward the base, I think there might be issues with seating some bullets without bulging the case. Shortened Starline 9X23 Comp brass might be worthy of consideration. I did some work with Col. Cooper's Super 9 cartridge back in the '80s, but since then, my "nutty ballsy" 9MMs have been more pedestrian,i.e., 38 Super, Super Comp, 38TJ and 9X23 Winchester. __________________ COTEP 640, NRA Life

October 7, 2018, 05:11 PM	#52
74A95 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2016 Posts: 1,570	Cooper used a barrel that measured just under 6.5", and in the .223 cases approached 1750 fps with 125 grain bullets, and 2000 fps with 90 grain bullets. Cooper, J. 1973. Debut of the “Super Cooper” 9mm Magnum. Guns and Ammo, December 1973, Vol. 17, #12, pp. 30-33.

April 22, 2019, 07:36 AM	#63
Ruger45LC Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 768	There are a lot of cool options out there, but to me at least, it seems the 357 SIG is just hard to beat for that caliber. You get a 9mm sized gun, nearly 9mm capacity and it can scream if you handload for it. A little while back I did some experimenting with using actual .357" bullets in the 357 SIG and from a 4.5" KKM 357 SIG barrel in a Glock .40 and Starline brass, I was able to run a 125gr XTP to 1620 fps avg, a 140gr XTP to 1460 fps avg and a 158gr XTP to 1390 fps. A 6" barrel added anywhere from 60-100 fps on top of this, less for the hefty 158gr, more for the 125gr.

April 22, 2019, 08:39 AM	#64
SATRP Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2019 Posts: 108	Hi Radny97, Why didn't the 9x23 Win catch on when it was introduced? What would be its intended purpose? What the heck happened to the .45 Win Mag? My prediction is the 10MM is on life support. It's exclusively a niche cartridge. Jeff Cooper returned home to his beloved 1911-A1 .45 ACP after birthing commercial production of the 10MM. Marketing is not much more than dandified propaganda. Short magnums were all the rage a decade ago. Most shorties are dead and buried. Mega magnums are heading in the same direction. Hunters who've regained their senses come to figure out that the century plus year old '06 still kills big game as dead as any mega magnum. There's only one degree of dead and that's dead. The '06 wins the head-to-head race.

April 22, 2019, 11:10 AM	#65
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Wiley Clapp tells us some about the .356 TSW. It was developed for competition by S&W. The TSW meant Team Smith & Wesson. It was a proprietary cartridge chambered in guns made by S&W. The idea was a common one at the time and went to an issue, or aimed at resolving an issue, in both IPSC and USPSA. That issue related to power factors and the difference between major and minor categories in competitive shooting. Up until 1996 or so to make Major you had to have a power Factor of 175. PF was set by taking the bullet weight times the velocity and dividing that by 1,000. A PF of 175 or above was major and below that was minor. This favored heavier bullets. Now there were other things going on the competitive shooting at the time that developed into issues and that shooters have tried to resolve but I can't get into that in a post. So... Folks figured out that if you took the 38 Super cartridge and loaded it up you could make major. This was true especially in guns with compensators. You could do this with a heavier or lighter bullet, either way. As 38 Super is essentially a 9mm cartridge you had increased mag capacity over the 45 acp and less recoil with a lighter bullet especially with a compensator. So 38 Super came to dominate competitive run and gun shooting from the 1980s till the early part of this century. It also led to a good number of competitors overloading the Super and blowing up guns. Several things happened as a result. One was that the 9x23 Winchester developed (which was the same oal as the 38 Super) and the .356 TSW (which was a bit longer than the 9mm but could fit in guns made for the 9mm parabellum. The 38 Super Comp was also developed, a rimless 38 Super. These were 9mm cartridges in diameter. They got about 1400 fps with a 125 gr. bullet and were excellent cartridges. But shortly after the appearance of these on the market the rules in IPSC changed. PF was lowered to 165. This meant that the standard 9mm could make major. This basically killed the market for these. Other changes were made as well. So here... https://www.americanrifleman.org/art.../4/29/356-tsw/ http://www.ammo-one.com/356TWS.html From Forgotten Weapons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2jU5cp4WCg tipoc __________________ 1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it. Last edited by tipoc; April 22, 2019 at 11:25 AM.

April 23, 2019, 03:50 AM	#66
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	A minor detail regarding the breech face: The rim dia of 9 mm s .394 The rim dia of the semi rimmed 38 Super is .406 The 10 mm is .424. I don't know how Colt cut the breech faces.IMO,I'd check a 38 Super slide to see f the breech freely accepts 10 mm.My Colt 38 Super slide does. My brother had a 9mm bbl fitted to interchange on his 38 Super race gun. Cheap brass. Losing Starline is a bummer..I suggested he have a dedicated extractor fitted. It runs fine. . When thinking ejectors,think radius. A 38 Super is .203,a 10 mm is .212.Thats a .009 difference in radius. I'd think the slide would be cut for the same ejector.. But,I have not done a 10mm.