How much do you worry about copper? - Page 2

Bart B. · January 11, 2021, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by std7mag

Depends where you are & what your shooting, from my observation.

Every year before deer rifle season i see the same guy show up at the range. He's got a beauty Weatherby Mark V in 300 Weatherby. Stainless fluted barrel.
Anyways, guy sets up a 9" paper plate at 50 yards. As long as he has 3 shots hitting the plate, regardless of where on the plate, he's "good".

Myself i prefer a much smaller impact area.
If i have 1+ moa i'm not happy.
But that's just me.

If his shots go where they are called, that's a perfect sighting in and zero on the sights for that range.

Sanch · January 11, 2021, 03:01 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have been exposed to no scientific research that has concluded that copper is harmful to rifle barrels.

After I use solvent to remove powder residue from my rifles' barrels, I'll run a patches of copper solvent through them. I'll leave copper solvent in barrels for about five minutes before running patches down bores to remove it. Most of the time my last patch will have nothing of a greenish color on it. But if my last patch is dry with a hint of green on it, I'm good. I do not want to waste time trying to removed a stubborn trace of copper that will not harm a barrel.

Bart B. · January 11, 2021, 08:03 PM

Copper is virtually harmless to the barrel.

The more that builds up in the bore, the more bullets can be deformed.

The more bullets are deformed, the less accurate they shoot.

RC20 · January 11, 2021, 08:47 PM

You all might want to invest in a Lyman Borescope and look!

I found a copper streak on barrel after shooting it for 4 years. Probably 2000 rounds. Oh The Humanity

Sanch · January 11, 2021, 11:05 PM

Hi Bart B,

Thanks for the info. It's what I thought. Copper doesn't harm barrels.

stagpanther · January 12, 2021, 08:23 AM

Quote:

How many MOA subtend a minute of deer?

I believe the "classic" minute of deer is a typical 7 or 8" paper dinner plate at 100 yds--put all your shots (anywhere) inside it and you are ready to terrorize Bambi. Many of the hunters I know do exactly this the weekend before season opens with 3 or 4 shots of corelokts and off they go, otherwise may not have shot the rifle since the previous year's season.

Since I'm a recreational bench shooter for the most part, I fire probably 1000 cartridges a month. My idea of fouling--and accuracy--is going to be different from the once-a-season hunter.

My limited experience has led me to believe that if the rifle has a typical mass-produced button rifled barrel with little to no bore finishing, I suspect the fouling build-ups may in some cases reach a beneficial "build-in" to the lands and grooves that may otherwise be unevenly cut, filled with tool chatter, gouges, pits etc and have uneven stress relieving.

Copper is a soft metal and is also amenable to combining/reacting with other elements and chemicals. Copper may be compacted in the bore with other deposits and not show itself as the typical bright orange of copper alone.

Bart B. · January 12, 2021, 09:49 AM

Stagpanther,

Is your MOD test with paper plates shot from the benchrest positions, or field positions without artificial support?

Most commercial rifle barrels are hammer forged. And the accuracy guarantees limited to 3 shots is a sign of poor barrel installation or stress relieving

stagpanther · January 12, 2021, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Stagpanther,

Is your MOD test with paper plates shot from the benchrest positions, or field positions without artificial support?

Most commercial rifle barrels are hammer forged. And the accuracy guarantees limited to 3 shots is a sign of poor barrel installation or stress relieving

I don't use that method--I just see the guys come out the week before season open. Usually they pin a paper plate to a tree, make an x with a sharpie in the middle, prop the rifle on whatever they have on their truck take a few shots and call it good. Sometimes it may be only 25 yds or 50 yds and if it groups relatively close--an inch or two--and an inch or two high from the x--that is also called good.I'm guessing they intend on hunting at 100 yds or less, though they sometimes have some pretty powerful cartridges for that (like the aforementioned 300 Wbymag)

bamaranger · January 12, 2021, 12:55 PM

I dabbled in F-T/R class shooting for a couple of seasons, one thing that was apparent was many serious shooters cleaned their bores religiously, say that evening, after the match. Round count might be somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 rds or so for that day. My hunting rifles don't get near that round count, nor do I shoot deer at the ranges that match shooters compete, I can accept a bit of copper fouling in my sporters.

But..........I find something irritating about having a copper fouled bore, I want the darn thing clean! When I can see copper streaks at the muzzle.......jeez, what does it look like back at the throat? MOre importantly though, how does it shoot? I've got a Rem 700 ADL .270 that is an extreme fouler, and while very accurate for an affordable sporter, group size begins to deteriorate noticably at 20 rds or so. Not enough to miss a deer, but from MOA to 1.5MOA, and it does it pretty quickly. That shift in performance bugs me. It won't cost me a deer, but I want the best from my rifle.

doofus47 · January 13, 2021, 05:23 PM

Bart B:

Quote:

How many MOA subtend a minute of deer?

I think we're back to the "did you miss?" catagory.... lol

Bart B. · January 14, 2021, 10:33 AM

The very best match grade barrels are going to wipe a little copper off the first few bullets fired starting out squeaky clean. Then the next few dozen bullets leave little, if any, copper in the barrel.

In one test, 40 consecutive shots after 2 sighters went inside 2 inches at 600 yards.

pete2 · January 14, 2021, 11:06 AM

Unless the rifle has a rough bore(and some do) Hoppes will do the trick. It'll work even with a rough bore but it has to be done often. I have a .243 that was rough(came that way, bought it new) needed cleaning every 4 or 5 rounds. It finally slicked up after about 400 rounds. What's going on right now CFE powders super coppeer cleaners blah blah blah is all for the sales.

**Unclenick** · January 15, 2021, 12:01 PM

You could also try Tubb Dust. I just put it into a couple of pounds of 4064. It is a blend of different grades of hBN powder so it distributes that dry lube in your bore. Very static cling prone and gets all over the powder measure and your fingers when handling it, but Tubb claims it stops copper build-up without treating the bullets, so I'm going to give it a try. I don't see why it wouldn't work since coated bullets do the same thing.

If you read some of the old gunsmithing books, like Howe and others, you learn that in the day of cupro-nickel jackets, removing copper was a regular chore for gunsmiths and there were some nasty mercuric chemicals used to do it. People would clean with Hoppes or another standard bore cleaner, but if their barrel was a copper grabber, eventually it would build to the point the constriction distorted bullets badly enough for even "minute of deer" (an angle that diminishes with range so the shooter stays inside the usual 10" circle; in other words, a diameter and not really an angle at all) to be impossible to maintain.

Gilding metal isn't nearly as bad as cupro-nickel, but my first Garand's military barrel shot surprisingly well and could stay in the ten-ring at 600 until about shot #40, at which point 9s and 8s started imposing themselves on the score. Needless to say, this was no way to win a match. At that time, moly-coated bullets were a new thing and they stopped that problem, but moly itself can eventually build-up, so it didn't end my cleaning activities.

These days, I use a pump sprayer to put about 3 spritzes of Boretech Eliminator down my barrel at the end of a range session, and then I put plugs in both ends, stick it in the gun case and drive home. When I get home, it is pretty clean and just needs patching out. I run a wet patch to check for copper color and if there is, I repeat the squirt and wait five or ten minutes to patch it out again. If there isn't, or if it is just a trace, I am done.

RC20 · January 16, 2021, 03:12 PM

Well The Graduate had one word (plastics for the younger folks)

I have two (phrases more accurate)

Lyman Boroscope

Bore Tech Eliminator (if needed by the inspection )

Of course many just want to jaw about it and what they think endlessly, I am a problem solver and getting on with the shooting.

ps: Hoppes does not do diddly, I spend a long time cleaning out a 270 from all the layers of carbon and copper it never touched.

ndking1126 · January 23, 2021, 12:58 AM

We all seem to be assuming you are shooting non-corrosive cartridges. If you are shooting corrossive, you are smart to clean after each trip.

January 11, 2021, 08:47 PM	#29
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	You all might want to invest in a Lyman Borescope and look! I found a copper streak on barrel after shooting it for 4 years. Probably 2000 rounds. Oh The Humanity __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

January 12, 2021, 12:55 PM	#34
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	copper I dabbled in F-T/R class shooting for a couple of seasons, one thing that was apparent was many serious shooters cleaned their bores religiously, say that evening, after the match. Round count might be somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 rds or so for that day. My hunting rifles don't get near that round count, nor do I shoot deer at the ranges that match shooters compete, I can accept a bit of copper fouling in my sporters. But..........I find something irritating about having a copper fouled bore, I want the darn thing clean! When I can see copper streaks at the muzzle.......jeez, what does it look like back at the throat? MOre importantly though, how does it shoot? I've got a Rem 700 ADL .270 that is an extreme fouler, and while very accurate for an affordable sporter, group size begins to deteriorate noticably at 20 rds or so. Not enough to miss a deer, but from MOA to 1.5MOA, and it does it pretty quickly. That shift in performance bugs me. It won't cost me a deer, but I want the best from my rifle.

January 15, 2021, 12:01 PM	#38
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	You could also try Tubb Dust. I just put it into a couple of pounds of 4064. It is a blend of different grades of hBN powder so it distributes that dry lube in your bore. Very static cling prone and gets all over the powder measure and your fingers when handling it, but Tubb claims it stops copper build-up without treating the bullets, so I'm going to give it a try. I don't see why it wouldn't work since coated bullets do the same thing. If you read some of the old gunsmithing books, like Howe and others, you learn that in the day of cupro-nickel jackets, removing copper was a regular chore for gunsmiths and there were some nasty mercuric chemicals used to do it. People would clean with Hoppes or another standard bore cleaner, but if their barrel was a copper grabber, eventually it would build to the point the constriction distorted bullets badly enough for even "minute of deer" (an angle that diminishes with range so the shooter stays inside the usual 10" circle; in other words, a diameter and not really an angle at all) to be impossible to maintain. Gilding metal isn't nearly as bad as cupro-nickel, but my first Garand's military barrel shot surprisingly well and could stay in the ten-ring at 600 until about shot #40, at which point 9s and 8s started imposing themselves on the score. Needless to say, this was no way to win a match. At that time, moly-coated bullets were a new thing and they stopped that problem, but moly itself can eventually build-up, so it didn't end my cleaning activities. These days, I use a pump sprayer to put about 3 spritzes of Boretech Eliminator down my barrel at the end of a range session, and then I put plugs in both ends, stick it in the gun case and drive home. When I get home, it is pretty clean and just needs patching out. I run a wet patch to check for copper color and if there is, I repeat the squirt and wait five or ten minutes to patch it out again. If there isn't, or if it is just a trace, I am done. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 16, 2021, 03:12 PM	#39
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Well The Graduate had one word (plastics for the younger folks) I have two (phrases more accurate) Lyman Boroscope Bore Tech Eliminator (if needed by the inspection ) Of course many just want to jaw about it and what they think endlessly, I am a problem solver and getting on with the shooting. ps: Hoppes does not do diddly, I spend a long time cleaning out a 270 from all the layers of carbon and copper it never touched. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

January 11, 2021, 03:01 PM	#27
Sanch Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2020 Posts: 154	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have been exposed to no scientific research that has concluded that copper is harmful to rifle barrels. After I use solvent to remove powder residue from my rifles' barrels, I'll run a patches of copper solvent through them. I'll leave copper solvent in barrels for about five minutes before running patches down bores to remove it. Most of the time my last patch will have nothing of a greenish color on it. But if my last patch is dry with a hint of green on it, I'm good. I do not want to waste time trying to removed a stubborn trace of copper that will not harm a barrel.

January 11, 2021, 08:03 PM	#28
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Copper is virtually harmless to the barrel. The more that builds up in the bore, the more bullets can be deformed. The more bullets are deformed, the less accurate they shoot.

January 11, 2021, 11:05 PM	#30
Sanch Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2020 Posts: 154	Hi Bart B, Thanks for the info. It's what I thought. Copper doesn't harm barrels.

January 12, 2021, 09:49 AM	#32
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Stagpanther, Is your MOD test with paper plates shot from the benchrest positions, or field positions without artificial support? Most commercial rifle barrels are hammer forged. And the accuracy guarantees limited to 3 shots is a sign of poor barrel installation or stress relieving

January 14, 2021, 10:33 AM	#36
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	The very best match grade barrels are going to wipe a little copper off the first few bullets fired starting out squeaky clean. Then the next few dozen bullets leave little, if any, copper in the barrel. In one test, 40 consecutive shots after 2 sighters went inside 2 inches at 600 yards.

January 14, 2021, 11:06 AM	#37
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	Unless the rifle has a rough bore(and some do) Hoppes will do the trick. It'll work even with a rough bore but it has to be done often. I have a .243 that was rough(came that way, bought it new) needed cleaning every 4 or 5 rounds. It finally slicked up after about 400 rounds. What's going on right now CFE powders super coppeer cleaners blah blah blah is all for the sales.

January 23, 2021, 12:58 AM	#40
ndking1126 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2008 Location: Madison, AL Posts: 1,932	We all seem to be assuming you are shooting non-corrosive cartridges. If you are shooting corrossive, you are smart to clean after each trip.