Scary Thought

[gatorgun]

Thank you everybody for you thoughts. I will definitely be getting some more training on self defense and weapon retention. Additionally, I will consider also carrying a non-lethal means of defense.

And if anybody knows how this case would work out specifically in Florida with having to take beating or not before I draw please let me know...I've been going through the statutes for a while now with no luck.

Thanks again.

[Jim March]

Step one: find a Florida-specific gun rights/gun-guy-in-general forum.

Step two: ask what's the best book on FL-specific gun laws.

Three: get it.

Four: read it .

Seriously, there's always one "dominant" book on a given state's gun laws, updated on a regular basis (mainly when there's changes).

It might be this one based on a quick google search:

http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com

Another thing: if you draw a gun while *angry*, your risk of seriously screwing up increases. A lot. A whole lot.

You should draw a gun to defend human life - your own or others.

The Sikhs carry a knife for that purpose, and literally will not ever draw it from the sheath for any other reason...except ritual food prep within the temple . "Saving life" could very well be non-combat-related such as cutting a crash victim's seat belt, or emergency medical use. But they won't ever show you their knife.

(There's a long story on how I know that...)

A very similar attitude should be ingrained into you, by you.

The best on-screen portrayal of the attitude involved happened in the best "Outer Limits" episode ever .

http://www.hulu.com/watch/69858/oute...ts-rule-of-law

It happens fairly early in, although not right away...I won't drop a spoiler otherwise .

[sonnylee77]

With all being said already, here are my thoughts.If you are man enough to have words with someone that could escalate into a physical confrontation, then you need to be man enough to back them up. If just words are thrown at you, then there is room for retreat. If fist are thrown at you then it's time to throw down. Fighting hurts and no one wants to get shot. If you pull your gun, it's in your hand and you have control of the situation. If you fight they can get your gun, (unless you have one of high dollar holsters like the police), and you relinquish control. There is a guy on here that has a signature that says, He that get you mad has control, or something like that. He is a very smart man. If you fight, don't get angry or frustrated, stay calm and you keep control because your thoughts are clear and controllable.

[Mobuck]

It seems there's a lot of difference in responses so here's mine. I'm 60ish with a bad back, a bum knee & hip, arthritic hands, and a jaw that was superglued together once already. I can't stand a physical confrontation w/o possibly serious injuries although I do know several fight stopping strikes. If I can't walk away, I'll back up as far as is prudent while dialing my phone if possible. At some point the aggressor will either get within my danger zone or give it up. Unless the guy is older, smaller, or a gimp(all doubtfull), when he enters my danger zone I'll notify him I'm armed. If that doesn't stop him, he gets to see my piece and another chance to give it up. The next step is firing. I've met all three requirements of deescalation. All of these things might happen in a few seconds. I've never had to draw but a couple of times have put my hand on the grip w/o showing the pistol. Both times were in the aid of another elderly person being threatened or hassled by young people. I don't frequent bars, drink, or travel in high crime areas so anyone wanting to fight with me has already come looking.

[Old Woodsmen]

I've never been one to frequent bars all that much but I remember one incident back in the late 60's I was in a very crowded bar and wanted to get a place to sit but a guy was in the way, I tapped him on the side of his arm and said excuse me, he instantly wanted to get into a fight. Thing is I was about 165-170 pounds and this guy was around 250 and I recognized him from a weight gym where I worked out in Seattle, the guy had bicepts the size of my leg. The bartender diffused this guys intention of making me into a bloody pulp. But this brings to my thought in dealing with big guys like this, steroids, I'm pretty sure this guy was using steroids because he just didn't look like he had gotten his muscularity from natural work outs. Over the years I've seen what steroids do to peoples thought processes and it needs to be considered in self defense. By the way this guy was a Seattle policeman and that in itself was scary.

[HiBC]

Thinking about posts 17 and 19
Some of post 17 is fine,but the pool table incident was not so fine.
If I may assume,the pool table was in an alchohol establishment?If one has enjoyed even one beer,it can be argued judgement is impaired.The DA won't like it.
The whole "I'll show them my Python,they will be impressed.and I will gain the power to control the situation" is wrong.
The testosterone driven BS around a pool table is not a place to have a friend go to the truck and bring you your gun,what,over retaining control of a pool table?(Remember,I'm a juror at your trial)
A member of the armed and polite society might recognise some folks would prefer to shoot pool with someone besides you,like a brother or lady friend.
A gentleman might win, three games,and then say""You guys go ahead,enjoy the table a while"
Or,if the situation had already developed,"You know,you have a point,I guess you guys would like to play each other,I have been here a while,I'm going to go have a beer.
Then,go home.
If we choose to have the option of playing the deadly force card,we have to be heads up to situations that may develop,like a sailor or pilot who keeps an eye on the weather.I have worked as a doorman in a large bar,and and watching the crowd,defusing situations early is THE job skill.That same skill applies to those who carry life or death in their hand
In some cases,like going into a bar,we make the choice to assume some risks.
Cutting loose with a 357 in a crowded bar is very likely to injure or kill bystanders.
Or will you tell me you had no intention to shoot,you just wanted to scare them?
The county just east of me,sadly,recently had a funeral for a Sheriff Deputy.
He was doing his job when the other party party decided to fight.In the scuffle,bad guy pulled the officers gun and killed the officer.Then the officer's partner killed the bad guy.
No need to critique trhe officers,the point,for me,is,if I am armed,I will not physically engage a bad guy.Too many opportunties for Murphy's Law.
I'll retreat till I can't retreat any more.

[Mr. James]

Some great posts here - thanks, Mr. March.

My own limited experience (past five years): carrying a pistol has made me a far more patient and forgiving soul. And I'm not at all ashamed to run the 100-meter fat-crab scrabble and get the hell out of Dodge if that will get me out of a dicey situation.

woodguru - What a night that must have been! Something about "keeping your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you" comes to mind.

[2500ak]

Another point about the guns in bars posts, is that quite a few of the states, and a lot of cities and municipalities have laws barring firearms from any establishment that makes a certain percentage -I think it's usually around 60%- of their profit on the sale of alcohol. Once again, check your local laws.

Even if your state doesn't have laws against brandishing, if you flash a gun in a bar or similar establishment the other party may still be within their rights to call 911 on you.

[woodguru]

You entirely misinterpreted what I said, read it again for clarity.

They had stated I was in for a four against one whuppin when I walked out the door. I showed a gun just enough for them to see and said I was leaving, they could have the table.

All I was looking to do was get away without a four to one confrontation. I was gone within 60 seconds of letting them know I wasn't putting up with the four of them jumping me.

You took this different than it was. I only wanted out without a mismatched fight.

Bottom line it worked as good as one could hope for and I wasn't okay with the only other alternative.

I lived with way rougher characters than most will ever see in their lives as an everyday occurance, those who haven't dealt with the dregs daily will never be able to second guess the way it is and what works.

Read my post about loaning that same Python to someone who shot and killed a 6'5" bad to the bone biker and you'll get the drift. I have that same Python, it ain't for looks. Same community, Georgetown, the last of the California mountain outlaw hangouts, that place was no joke. Get people annoyed there and someone was going to get hurt.

[David Hineline]

Idiots in bars fight, gun owners just win. I am not taking any kind of a beating without going to the gun.

[jhenry]

Avoiding places where fools are known to frequent is always step one.

[tet4]

Avoiding places where fools are known to frequent is always step one.

Good advice - it doesn't always work, but sometimes people ask for trouble.

Avoid trouble.

When you sign up for a martial art, if the instructor is worth anything he/she will tell you several things.

1. Bullets are faster than fists, and if you get in a knife fight, you will get cut.

2. Martial arts are taught for self defense only. Part of the discipline of any martial art is learning to avoid conflict whenever possible.

3. The best defense is your ability to run. Use it.

Now, being that I don't pick fights, and will walk away from any altercation if possible (because I have better things to do in life), if someone of reasonable size still tries to pound on me, that's a lethal attack - treat it like one. People overwhelmingly get this idea that someone can't kill you with their bare hands. That's just ridiculous.

If someone (of reasonable size) takes a swing at you unprovoked, what makes you think he's going to stop with just one? Last year a grad student in this town was jumped late at night, knocked out and woke up in his apartment. He doesn't remember much of the altercation, but he suffered severe cognitive disability (had a bad concussion) to the point of not being able to do grad school work any longer (at any level). He had to leave school and probably will not be able to hold a well paying job ever. He was a very bright guy.

There's no such thing as a good-natured fist fight.

[jreXD9]

awhile back I washed my dirt bike (still riding @ almost 52) and then ran it down the street to make sure no water was in the carb. this dude came stomping down his driveway into the middle of the street and put his hands up like he was singing "Stop in the name of love." He started barking about kids in the neighborhood running out in the street (there were none at this time) and me hitting them. he was yappng right in my face. I just smiled at him, knowing that if he really wanted to get physical then I had something for him. He was straddling my front wheel so all I had to do was pop the clutch and let it turn him into a soprano. He never knew about the CW45 on my hip and I'm glad he never gave a reason to find out.

[Jim March]

I too absolutely subscribe to the "peace whenever possible" doctrine.

But.

I'm also the type who is unable to watch somebody else get pulped unjustly. I just can't do it. So my overall odds of getting into a fight go up on that basis.

I've had to reach for knives in earnest three times so far, never had to actually use (chase-offs). Two out of the three were in defense of somebody else. No legal problems at all from any of these cases, good results in each and hey, I can still look myself in a mirror, decent bonus.

Not everybody takes this view but...when you do, it does absolutely raise your odds of getting involved in a squabble or worst. In all such events, keeping your cool, using verbal judo and using the absolute minimum possible force to solve the problem is vital.

And "solve the problem" doesn't mean "catch or kill the assailants" - it means saving the life of the victim(s).

[Buzzcook]

Any martial art will do. After a couple of years you will be far ahead of the average guy.
Any martial art works better if you are strong and limber. So exercise is a very good idea.
But a black belt and big muscles doesn't mean you can't get your buttocks kicked.

Avoid alcohol and places that serve it for recreational purposes.

Learn how to run away.

[woodguru]

It's really really hard to answer these scenario situations with the "you shoulda done this or that" answers. Every situation is different because the people are different, there's the guys that if you look at them wrong it's on, and those that buckle to any show of backbone.

I get criticized for being in the situations that are less than copasetic, but I got in them in the first place because I could.

Knowing what to say or do for the situation as it is is the key. I had the hugest solidest 1% biker (450+ pounds) you'd never want to see in your face that had made the comment "looks like a yuppy to me" when I was being introduced to him. As this party was being organized people had pointed out to my "walk on the wild side" girlfriend that it wouldn't be a good idea for me to be at this biker party, the way it was put was "Keith looks like a yuppy and (blank) kills yuppies". I assured my girlfriend that I could handle the situation, don't worry about me. So I'm being introduced to the biggest, solidest boulder of a human being I've ever seen (in my face anyway). In response to his comment I leaned a little closer to him and asked, "if you see a yuppy why don't you try to kick his (gluteous maximus)?" The room went silent as people waited for the carnage that was to be me, heck, I figured I'd get trashed. We stared at each other and I took a measured step back, he started laughing and said "I like this guy, he's got (cahones)". This was the correct response at that time for that guy, it may never have worked on another. I ended up with a nickname with that club that I really didn't like but I owned it anyway, I was evermore "that yuppy mother f#%7er that Susan's with, or just that yuppy MF".

Later he wanted to know what was in the briefcase I always had with me, I flicked the one latched catch open and had a six inch Colt Diamondback in my hand. He made the obvious observation that it was "just a .22", a couple other club members came over to check it out and one made the comment that a .22 was a professional's weapon and looked at me a bit closer. My new buddy looked at me differently knowing I had access to a gun but hadn't pull it out because of an eminent physical threat. We'll never know if when I stepped back I was going to grab that Diamondback or not, rest assured I was in a serious threat of getting severely hurt. Let's just say I had no intention of getting run over by a guy who looked like a tank that had a reputation for killing yuppies. That's the one time I was feeling a .22 might be inadequate, sort of like taking a .22 to a tank fight. I remember thinking the Python would have made me feel quite a bit more secure, I also remember thinking "headshot or I'm gonna get hurt".

I know there's a hundred guys on here that think they'd have handled it better but they never would have been in this particular situation in the first place so it's a moot point.

I went 20 plus years figuring I'd take certain stories about things I did to the grave, but the time gone by has me feeling like it's in the past and safer to talk about as long as clubs and specific people aren't named.

[4runnerman]

Im 49 and still choose to run. I do run 3 marathons a year so unless the guy can run long distances im good to go. I can't honestly say what i would do if confronted and no place to run. Maybe a cheap shot in the groin and then run.

[old bear]

I mean the "Hey, sorry if I offended you, yes I am a horrible excuse for human existance. I am in the wrong here, I won't do that ever again."

AA +1.

No one likes to be considered a patsy, soft, or whatever; yet the wise thing to do is do whatever is necessary to avoid a fight. If the above does not work toss your drink or whatever is handy and run like HELL if you can.

[markj]

Had a guy want to kick me rear end 2 months ago, he was a lot smaller than me too. Must have been dropped on his head as a kid. I stood up to him, he wouldnt throw a punch so I left him standing there all upset cause he run a red lite and I hit his car, it didnt make it, he walked home that nite.

A bud asked me why I didnt shoot him I asked him why should I have? I did learn me one lesson, never leave home without the cell phone, 3 guys there all had cell phones but not one called 911, probably due to them being stoned or whatever, I walked to a store and they run off including the one wanted to kick me rear.

Years ago as a bouncer I had to deal with all sorts of idiots, drinking makes one stupid and ignorant IMHO so I just dont drink.

In almost every altercation you get to a point wheree you know it is going bad, at that point you best leave before it happens and you end up regretting an action that didnt need to be.

[egor20]

I've found that using:

Sir
Mam, (or Miss)
Thank you
Excuse Me
Your Welcome
Have a Nice Day

Works wonders to get out of a awkward situation, and doesn't cost you a dime.

Those words are automatically built in, growing up in the south


Good line from the movie "Road House", words to live by
Dalton: I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice.

[quatin]

Thank you everybody for you thoughts. I will definitely be getting some more training on self defense and weapon retention. Additionally, I will consider also carrying a non-lethal means of defense.

And if anybody knows how this case would work out specifically in Florida with having to take beating or not before I draw please let me know...I've been going through the statutes for a while now with no luck.

Thanks again.

You won't find it. It's deliberately left out so it can be applied at the discretion of the state. You're looking for a boundary at which you can draw a weapon, unfortunately there isn't one. Every scenario is dealt with individually. The only specific scenario it dictates is that "words are not justification for using deadly force."

If you are physically capable, the benefits of learning unarmed combat far exceeds the benefits of carrying a weapon. Especially since the law deals disparagingly on armed force. You'll find out that problems tend to happen at conversation distances and you will have to deal with close quarters fighting whether you plan for it or not.

If you're just starting out, I highly advise against "street fighting" classes, since the vast majority are shams. These days it's easy to make up credentials, awards and qualifications, especially for "street fighting" since there's no governing body for it like there is with sport fighting. I actually would recommend that you get into a sport fighting gym such as MMA, boxing or kick boxing. It's easy to recognize competence among these gyms as the successful gyms will have fighters who compete. They are also more complete, in that you will get instructions on nutrition, strength, cardio and reflex training along with techniques. You will also "spar" often, which will allow you to constantly use the techniques you're taught. Quite often with "street fighting" classes, I see techniques that aren't practicable on a live opponent. These are great, as a supplement to traditional fighting techniques, but never as a base. A jab, cross combo that's properly taught and practiced goes a long ways in any type of fight. Keep at it for a few months and then you can dab into the "street fighting" scene with your boxing base and you will be better able to judge the credibility of the techniques the instructor demonstrates.

[Mosinnagant]

If you dont want to use your fire arm and dont think your hands are good enough carry mace,tazer, or a folding baton they are legal pretty much every were.

[BudW]

Baton
Spray
Tazer

[Nnobby45]

Protecting ones firearm does not seem to me valid grounds for drawing a weapon. What do you think ?

If someone was drawing a gun on you, the law would generally recognize your right to use deadly force. The danger would be obvious.

If someone were trying to arm themselves with YOUR gun, why would the danger and justification be any less?

[youngunz4life]

I am with Nnobby45. That's more than extrememly serious if someone goes for your gun.