What Do You Carry For Protection - Page 2

Jeremiah/Az · October 28, 2010, 06:21 PM

If I could only carry one thing, it would be my gun. I do carry pepper spray on the off side.

What would hitting someone with your gun do to the gun? Maybe render it inoperable? Bend or break something on the gun?

Webleymkv · October 28, 2010, 07:40 PM

Quote:

What would hitting someone with your gun do to the gun? Maybe render it inoperable? Bend or break something on the gun?

Depends on the gun and what part you hit them with. The underlug on a revolver barrel makes a rather nasty impact weapon.

10mmAuto · October 28, 2010, 08:18 PM

Depends, is a Glock 20 in 10mm with 125gr hollowpoints @1600FPS a lethal weapon?

Big Tom · October 28, 2010, 09:51 PM

Depends...did you hit them in a vital area?

10mmAuto · October 28, 2010, 10:09 PM

Pretty much anywhere is a vital area with enough gun.

Big Tom · October 29, 2010, 12:05 AM

So if you shot me in the hand I am automatically dead? Or the leg? Or Arm? Or Shoulder? My dad's friend was shot point blank in the stomach twice by a .357. Missed his vitals and he is still walking around today. Though his stomach looks like a giant nasty raggedy back thing....once you see that damage of what a bullet does to a human body, you really want to make sure you pull out the thing ONLY WHEN REALLY NEEDED! Scaring someone like that for life is gonna bother you for the rest of yours if you know that you could of avoided the whole mess. Just say'n...

Stay Safe!

10mmAuto · October 29, 2010, 12:32 AM

Quote:

So if you shot me in the hand I am automatically dead? Or the leg? Or Arm? Or Shoulder? My dad's friend was shot point blank in the stomach twice by a .357. Missed his vitals and he is still walking around today.

Notice the qualifier "pretty much" and "with enough gun". I suppose a gutshot with .50BMG would most likely just be a flesh wound? Also I didn't know to be considered lethal something had to strike you down on the spot as if it were lightning. I guess using this logic rattlesnake bites or the bow and arrow are not lethal either.

Sevenfaces · October 29, 2010, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Notice the qualifier "pretty much" and "with enough gun". I suppose a gutshot with .50BMG would most likely just be a flesh wound? Also I didn't know to be considered lethal something had to strike you down on the spot as if it were lightning. I guess using this logic rattlesnake bites or the bow and arrow are not lethal either.

Rattler bites are rarely fatal.

10mmAuto · October 29, 2010, 01:41 AM

Yes, because of anti venom. Missing the point entirely.

MLeake · October 29, 2010, 01:43 AM

... with fatalities won't help with the legal issues.

Most rattler bites aren't fatal. However, throw a rattler at a person and see what the DA charges you with...

Or strike a person with any (serious) blunt object.

These days, a rubber pellet shot from a homemade slingshot got a middle schooler in Florida charged with "Assault with a Deadly Weapon" because the rubber pellet raised a welt on its "victim."

So I wouldn't recommend pistol-whipping as a suggested "non-lethal" approach.

Bartholomew Roberts · October 29, 2010, 07:28 AM

Quote:

However, there are circumstances in which gunfire, while legally justifiable, is not a practical option.

Yes, I would agree with that general sentiment. I mistakenly thought you were talking about using a firearm in a situation where lethal force was not justifiable.

Big Tom · October 29, 2010, 08:13 AM

10mmAuto I am getting at the fact that you said pretty much anywhere is a vital area. Not true, the vitals ARE the vital area. If the .50 shot me in the stomach are my chances of living slim? Yes, because a bullet like that CAN hit me in an area where my vitals are. If it hit me in the intestine and someone stopped the bleeding the bacteria from the intestine spewing into my bloodstream would kill me. If it missed that area, then I may live. Nothing is 100% certain, although for one thing I doubt anyone carries such a gun on their person everyday so is this very credible? Perhaps on a battlefield....in a pedestrian scenario? I'd say no! Not that its not possible, just VERY unlikely!

booker_t · October 29, 2010, 11:57 AM

I'd like to echo Webleymkv's comment about non-lethal vs. less-lethal.

Blunt force weapons, especially those made for spot impact such as kubotans, knucks, stingers, saps, blackjacks, and the crenelated flashlight bezels, are all potentially lethal. And depending on your local/state laws, carrying one can be enough to show intent to use it, or premeditation, especially if you have indicated desire/intent to use them elsewhere (such as in email or on internet forums).

While it's important to protect yourself, it's also important to protect yourself.

Couzin · October 30, 2010, 08:35 PM

Quote:

I am getting at the fact that you said pretty much anywhere is a vital area. Not true, the vitals ARE the vital area... If it missed that area, then I may live... Nothing is 100% certain, although for one thing I doubt anyone carries such a gun on their person everyday so is this very credible? Perhaps on a battlefield....in a pedestrian scenario? I'd say no! Not that its not possible, just VERY unlikely!

Big Tom -- You need to know the difference between 'shoot to stop (a threat)' and 'shoot to kill.' Hitting an area of the body to incapacitate immediately is the goal, and hitting vital areas is the quickest way to accomplish this - although, a round anywhere on the body may have the objective met - depending on the individual and how cranked up they are. 10mmAuto is saying any area is a vital area if the threat is stopped. A round to the hand (or even a missed shot), if it ends the threat, is enough. You don't get to go all bad az cowboy gangbanger and just finish killin someone cuz they needed killin'!!! And, "on a battlefield"?? -- seriously - warzones are not video games dude.

Couzin · October 30, 2010, 08:52 PM

Remember:

“Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” -- Colonel Jeff Cooper

OlCrip · October 31, 2010, 10:07 AM

I carry a cane all the time and am quite proficient with it. When I was Shore Patrol I became an artist with a nightstick. I modified a few techniques and sought additional help from a professional. The cane is a constant companion. So are many of the knives I've built. Had just enough training with the knife to be dangerous. All are capable of being thrown accurately at "inside the house" distances. Only bad thing about throwing a knife though is that once it's thrown it's of no more use to you. Also carry a mini-sap. About 8 1/2" long. It'll break an arm or knee. So will my cane. I'm not licensed to carry a handgun, although they ARE in the house.

One bad guy became the laughing stock of the Police that showed up one night. When they arrested him he had a broken wrist, severly enlarged testicles and a knee that generally isn't supposed to point that way. I'm just an old man that refuses to be a victim. Cops got a big kick out of seeing this kid in all manner of disarray. Just before the officers arrived I told the kid (kid, he was 26) that he really sucked at this line of work and that he really needed to seek employment in another line of work. He did. He became a guest of the State of Michigan for 5-7. Makes really nice license plates.

markj · November 2, 2010, 03:24 PM

Quote:

What would hitting someone with your gun do to the gun? Maybe render it inoperable? Bend or break something on the gun?

A good steel 1911 will just about kill a person if hit on the head with the right force.

In this day I would hesitate to hit anyone with anything other than a fist and only after he hit me with witness's watching. Most times you will find the event on youtube..... we live in a sue you society where no one is responsible for their actions except for me..... You hit someone, they call 911, you may go to jail. Be careful out there.

Terry A · November 2, 2010, 03:43 PM

103-1 as of this post.

That may be some sort of record as far as percentage of members agreeing on a subject here at TFL!

sakeneko · November 3, 2010, 12:33 AM

You left out the third choice:

c) both of the above.

I carry both pepper spray and a handgun any time I leave the house except for those rare occasions when I'm going somewhere where one or both are prohibited. Gives me more options. I *like* having choices.

micksis86 · November 3, 2010, 02:26 AM

I've been sprayed with OC spray on a training course whilst in the service and trust me it hurts like a bitch!

MLeake · November 3, 2010, 04:07 AM

... for me, it wasn't so much the pain, as the seemingly unending flow of mucus from my nose and tears from my eyes.

The stuff is not fun.

But I'm not so sure it would have been instantly debilitating. Partially disabling, yes; debilitating, no - at least not in the training exposure level I was subjected to.

pax · November 3, 2010, 09:32 AM

If you need pepper spray or another less-lethal force tool and don't have it or use it, you'll get beat up or bitten or somesuch.

If you need a gun or another lethal force tool and don't have it, you'll probably never need anything ever again.

That's why if you could really only carry one of the two (a nonsensical premise), the gun makes more sense. Less-lethal options are useful in a wider variety of situations, but the reason we carry deadly force isn't because we think we'll need it (statistically quite unlikely) but because the consequences would be fatal if we needed it & didn't have it.

Although humans are tool users and it's usually better to have proper tools than to not have them, a few basic physical skills can usually provide adequate coverage through non-lethal force levels. This is especially true if you know how to use the environment around you to good advantage. If you need a non-lethal force multiplier, look around. There's almost certainly a non-lethal but decently effective weapon near you right now if you know what to look for.

Legally speaking, firearms are always lethal force, whether you aim at the guy's center mass or his left big toe. Physically he might survive the big-toe shot (though nothing's certain), but legally it's the same thing. Improvised instruments such as canes and frying pans can certainly be considered lethal force if you use them that way, but the courts are just as likely to see them as a non-lethal force level if you use them as such and your lawyer articulates your actions properly.

Best bet: Make sure the situation warrants the level of force you plan to use, then use that level as fast and as efficiently and as hard as you can. Don't dither.

pax

isanchez2008 · November 3, 2010, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Best bet: Make sure the situation warrants the level of force you plan to use, then use that level as fast and as efficiently and as hard as you can. Don't dither.

pax

+1

bmxslyguy187 · November 3, 2010, 08:11 PM

According to my roommate the lawyer, lethal force should only be used if similar or greater than lethal force is presented. And in this case, it should be succinctly used, to lessen family lawsuits after lethal force was used.

Therefore, I do only carry lethal force. If a need arises where I don't need to use lethal force then I will talk/walk/move my way out of the situation.

ncpatriot · November 3, 2010, 08:53 PM

I have pepper spray but it's no good against the wind and wouldn't be much good to have to get so close to use it. I carry both in my vehicle but usually just my gun when walking around. I try to watch where I go and avoid potential situations. I something does start up, merely showing the pistol will deter a lot of people. I doubt showing the spray would stop anyone in his tracks.

View Poll Results: What would you carry for self defense?
Lethal Weapon (Gun, knife, etc )	271	98.19%
Non Lethal Weapon (Pepper spray, taser, etc)	5	1.81%
Voters: 276. You may not vote on this poll

October 28, 2010, 09:51 PM	#29
Big Tom Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2009 Location: Northeast, Maryland Posts: 441	Depends...did you hit them in a vital area? __________________ ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!

October 29, 2010, 12:05 AM	#31
Big Tom Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2009 Location: Northeast, Maryland Posts: 441	So if you shot me in the hand I am automatically dead? Or the leg? Or Arm? Or Shoulder? My dad's friend was shot point blank in the stomach twice by a .357. Missed his vitals and he is still walking around today. Though his stomach looks like a giant nasty raggedy back thing....once you see that damage of what a bullet does to a human body, you really want to make sure you pull out the thing ONLY WHEN REALLY NEEDED! Scaring someone like that for life is gonna bother you for the rest of yours if you know that you could of avoided the whole mess. Just say'n... Stay Safe! __________________ ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!

October 29, 2010, 01:43 AM	#35
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Playing percentages... ... with fatalities won't help with the legal issues. Most rattler bites aren't fatal. However, throw a rattler at a person and see what the DA charges you with... Or strike a person with any (serious) blunt object. These days, a rubber pellet shot from a homemade slingshot got a middle schooler in Florida charged with "Assault with a Deadly Weapon" because the rubber pellet raised a welt on its "victim." So I wouldn't recommend pistol-whipping as a suggested "non-lethal" approach.

October 29, 2010, 08:13 AM	#37
Big Tom Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2009 Location: Northeast, Maryland Posts: 441	10mmAuto I am getting at the fact that you said pretty much anywhere is a vital area. Not true, the vitals ARE the vital area. If the .50 shot me in the stomach are my chances of living slim? Yes, because a bullet like that CAN hit me in an area where my vitals are. If it hit me in the intestine and someone stopped the bleeding the bacteria from the intestine spewing into my bloodstream would kill me. If it missed that area, then I may live. Nothing is 100% certain, although for one thing I doubt anyone carries such a gun on their person everyday so is this very credible? Perhaps on a battlefield....in a pedestrian scenario? I'd say no! Not that its not possible, just VERY unlikely! __________________ ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!

October 28, 2010, 06:21 PM	#26
Jeremiah/Az Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Location: Az. Posts: 509	If I could only carry one thing, it would be my gun. I do carry pepper spray on the off side. What would hitting someone with your gun do to the gun? Maybe render it inoperable? Bend or break something on the gun?

October 28, 2010, 08:18 PM	#28
10mmAuto Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2010 Posts: 598	Depends, is a Glock 20 in 10mm with 125gr hollowpoints @1600FPS a lethal weapon?

October 28, 2010, 10:09 PM	#30
10mmAuto Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2010 Posts: 598	Pretty much anywhere is a vital area with enough gun.

October 29, 2010, 01:41 AM	#34
10mmAuto Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2010 Posts: 598	Yes, because of anti venom. Missing the point entirely.

October 29, 2010, 11:57 AM	#38
booker_t Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2009 Posts: 797	I'd like to echo Webleymkv's comment about non-lethal vs. less-lethal. Blunt force weapons, especially those made for spot impact such as kubotans, knucks, stingers, saps, blackjacks, and the crenelated flashlight bezels, are all potentially lethal. And depending on your local/state laws, carrying one can be enough to show intent to use it, or premeditation, especially if you have indicated desire/intent to use them elsewhere (such as in email or on internet forums). While it's important to protect yourself, it's also important to protect yourself.

October 30, 2010, 08:52 PM	#40
Couzin Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2006 Location: Terrell, Texas Posts: 240	Remember: “Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” -- Colonel Jeff Cooper

October 31, 2010, 10:07 AM	#41
OlCrip Member Join Date: October 11, 2010 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 68	Self Defense I carry a cane all the time and am quite proficient with it. When I was Shore Patrol I became an artist with a nightstick. I modified a few techniques and sought additional help from a professional. The cane is a constant companion. So are many of the knives I've built. Had just enough training with the knife to be dangerous. All are capable of being thrown accurately at "inside the house" distances. Only bad thing about throwing a knife though is that once it's thrown it's of no more use to you. Also carry a mini-sap. About 8 1/2" long. It'll break an arm or knee. So will my cane. I'm not licensed to carry a handgun, although they ARE in the house. One bad guy became the laughing stock of the Police that showed up one night. When they arrested him he had a broken wrist, severly enlarged testicles and a knee that generally isn't supposed to point that way. I'm just an old man that refuses to be a victim. Cops got a big kick out of seeing this kid in all manner of disarray. Just before the officers arrived I told the kid (kid, he was 26) that he really sucked at this line of work and that he really needed to seek employment in another line of work. He did. He became a guest of the State of Michigan for 5-7. Makes really nice license plates. __________________ "It is the province of knowledge to speak and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen".... Oliver Wendell Holmes

November 2, 2010, 03:43 PM	#43
Terry A Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Location: Washington, Pa Posts: 764	103-1 as of this post. That may be some sort of record as far as percentage of members agreeing on a subject here at TFL! __________________ 2 Thes 3:16 "Now may the Lord of peace Himself continually grant you peace in every circumstance. The Lord be with you all! "

November 3, 2010, 12:33 AM	#44
sakeneko Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2009 Location: Nevada Posts: 644	You left out the third choice: c) both of the above. I carry both pepper spray and a handgun any time I leave the house except for those rare occasions when I'm going somewhere where one or both are prohibited. Gives me more options. I like having choices.

November 3, 2010, 02:26 AM	#45
micksis86 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 420	I've been sprayed with OC spray on a training course whilst in the service and trust me it hurts like a bitch! __________________ Never argue with morons, they will lower you down to their level and beat you with experience.

November 3, 2010, 04:07 AM	#46
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Pepper spray... ... for me, it wasn't so much the pain, as the seemingly unending flow of mucus from my nose and tears from my eyes. The stuff is not fun. But I'm not so sure it would have been instantly debilitating. Partially disabling, yes; debilitating, no - at least not in the training exposure level I was subjected to.

November 3, 2010, 09:32 AM	#47
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	If you need pepper spray or another less-lethal force tool and don't have it or use it, you'll get beat up or bitten or somesuch. If you need a gun or another lethal force tool and don't have it, you'll probably never need anything ever again. That's why if you could really only carry one of the two (a nonsensical premise), the gun makes more sense. Less-lethal options are useful in a wider variety of situations, but the reason we carry deadly force isn't because we think we'll need it (statistically quite unlikely) but because the consequences would be fatal if we needed it & didn't have it. Although humans are tool users and it's usually better to have proper tools than to not have them, a few basic physical skills can usually provide adequate coverage through non-lethal force levels. This is especially true if you know how to use the environment around you to good advantage. If you need a non-lethal force multiplier, look around. There's almost certainly a non-lethal but decently effective weapon near you right now if you know what to look for. Legally speaking, firearms are always lethal force, whether you aim at the guy's center mass or his left big toe. Physically he might survive the big-toe shot (though nothing's certain), but legally it's the same thing. Improvised instruments such as canes and frying pans can certainly be considered lethal force if you use them that way, but the courts are just as likely to see them as a non-lethal force level if you use them as such and your lawyer articulates your actions properly. Best bet: Make sure the situation warrants the level of force you plan to use, then use that level as fast and as efficiently and as hard as you can. Don't dither. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

November 3, 2010, 08:11 PM	#49
bmxslyguy187 Member Join Date: March 15, 2009 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 30	According to my roommate the lawyer, lethal force should only be used if similar or greater than lethal force is presented. And in this case, it should be succinctly used, to lessen family lawsuits after lethal force was used. Therefore, I do only carry lethal force. If a need arises where I don't need to use lethal force then I will talk/walk/move my way out of the situation. __________________ S&W .40 VE, Mossberg 500 Tactical, Sears Special 1941 .22 Model 29, Remington Speedmaster .22, Bausch & Lomb 30-06

November 3, 2010, 08:53 PM	#50
ncpatriot Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 371	I have pepper spray but it's no good against the wind and wouldn't be much good to have to get so close to use it. I carry both in my vehicle but usually just my gun when walking around. I try to watch where I go and avoid potential situations. I something does start up, merely showing the pistol will deter a lot of people. I doubt showing the spray would stop anyone in his tracks. __________________ Remember the American heroes of Flight 93.