confused about a transfer.

gadgetguy1288 · September 9, 2009, 11:13 PM

Well My 2 spikes lowers got to my FFL yesterday, and my bushmaster that i ordered came in today. I went there this afternoon to pick them up and when he called the FBI number they told him i was not old enough to make the transfer! WHAT?!?!?! Im 20 yrs old, turning 21 in December. He called them back to talk to someone higher up and they told him that im able to transfer the rifle, just not the receivers. how can that be???? Back in July I had purchased a stag stripped lower while on vacation in WI, and everything went fine! I got back here to AK, and decided I was going to buy a complete rifle before getting into a build, and sold it. But i was still able to have it transfered to me!!!!! did the law change since July?

SOMEONE HELP ME!!

I really don't want to have let my lowers sit at my ffl, and hold off on my 6.8 build for 4 months!!

If this doesn't belong in this section, can the Mods please move it? Thanks

Zak Smith · September 10, 2009, 12:44 AM

It's because a stripped lower can be made into a pistol or a rifle. It's not sold as either technically.

blume357 · September 10, 2009, 05:19 AM

You can't make a ruger 10/22 receiver into a pistol (Ruger Charger). But you can make a Charger pistol into a 'legal' 10/22 rifle ... longer barrel and full stock.

Xanatos · September 10, 2009, 05:27 AM

AR stripped lower receivers are tricky. I originally bought a full AR-15 and for my 6.8 build I planned on building it, but when I went to my LGS I was told I had to be 21 to buy a stripped lower receiver, but they would gladly sell me a completed rifle receiver. I think part of the same law is making shotguns with pistol grips for 21+ only too. It's stupid, but whatever. Depending on the laws of your state, you may have to get a friend to pick them up for you and then do a bill of sale once you leave the store (that's the policy at my LGS, they'll advise you on how to legally get around the law as long as you don't do it inside their store).

johnbt · September 10, 2009, 06:40 AM

You order a gun, have a friend pick it up and then do a bill of sale in the parking lot?

This can only end badly if push ever comes to shove. What about the question on the 4473 - Are you the actual purchaser?

John

PetahW · September 10, 2009, 07:05 AM

[Depending on the laws of your state, you may have to get a friend to pick them up for you and then do a bill of sale once you leave the store (that's the policy at my LGS, they'll advise you on how to legally get around the law as long as you don't do it inside their store). ]

That is the very definition of a "strawman purchase", is illegal, and prosecutable by BATFE.

BATFE uses that very method to catch out FFL's who "cheat" thusly.

The last prosecution, in my local area, lost his FFL forever, can have NO firearms in his sporting goods/engraving shop, and was assessed a $50,000 fine, which got plea bargained down to $10K.
Every firearm that was in his store got removed by BATFE, and was later placed on consignment sale at another local FFL.

If you're gonna play, you'll eventually pay.

.

gotigers · September 10, 2009, 07:39 AM

have your FFL install the lower's components and upper, register it, then transfer the complete rifle.

berettaprofessor · September 10, 2009, 09:05 AM

How about if the FFL gives you a table in the back and lets you build the lowers and then transfers them as rifles? Takes, what, about 30 minutes/lower? Wouldn't that be legal?

Xanatos · September 10, 2009, 12:41 PM

Wow that was posted late last night and I feel stupid for not reading that through twice before posting. What I meant was, have a friend buy the stripped lower receiver, build it into a completed rifle length receiver, and then sell it to you as such.

NavyLT · September 10, 2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotigers

have your FFL install the lower's components and upper, register it, then transfer the complete rifle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by berettaprofessor

How about if the FFL gives you a table in the back and lets you build the lowers and then transfers them as rifles? Takes, what, about 30 minutes/lower? Wouldn't that be legal?

Both of those instances requires the FFL to be licensed as a manufacturer as well as a dealer. Stripped lower receiver gets entered into the bound book as a receiver and gets transferred out of the bound book as a complete rifle -requires a manufacturer's license. That one would be easily caught during a BATFE audit and be cause for revocation of the dealer's license.

Hkmp5sd · September 10, 2009, 06:14 PM

Quote:

It's because a stripped lower can be made into a pistol or a rifle. It's not sold as either technically.

Technically sorta-kinda.

It is because a person under 21 can only purchase a "rifle" or "shotgun" from a FFL. A receiver does not meet the definition of a "rilfe" and therefore cannot be sold to anyone under 21. It is the same thing that prevents anyone under 21 from purchasing a pistol gripped only shotgun. Since it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder, it does not meet the definition of a "shotgun" and is instead considered a "Title I Firearm".

On the other hand, if the dealer bolted a shoulder stock to the receiver and then removed it, the receiver is then and forever more a "rifle" per ATF's own rulings and could never be made into a "pistol". As it is then a "Rifle", it could be transferred to the OP.

NavyLT · September 10, 2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hkmp5sd

On the other hand, if the dealer bolted a shoulder stock to the receiver and then removed it, the receiver is then and forever more a "rifle" per ATF's own rulings and could never be made into a "pistol". As it is then a "Rifle", it could be transferred to the OP.

Again, though, not unless the dealer also had a manufacturing license. In order to change a stripped lower received into their bound book into a "rifle", the FFL must possess a manufacturer's license, because that is what they are doing, the are manufacturer a "rifle" that did exist before.

Hkmp5sd · September 10, 2009, 06:41 PM

I disagree on this one. The stripped receiver is considered a Title I Firearm and the manufacturing tax has already been paid for it. The FFL isn't manufacturing a firearm, he his changing the classification. An FFL can bolt a shoulder stock to a PG only shotgun and sell it to an under 21 as a "shotgun" without being considered the manufacturer.

jgcoastie · September 10, 2009, 06:54 PM

Is your father available to pick up the lowers? It wouldn't be a "straw man purchase" if your father/mother bought it intending for it to be a gift for you.

Would it?

Hkmp5sd · September 10, 2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Would it?

He has already paid for them. Be real hard to convince anyone the parents suddenly decided to "gift" them.

Using anyone to get around the transfer paperwork is illegal, no matter how you word it or how many "winks" and "nods" are given.

jgcoastie · September 10, 2009, 07:13 PM

Fair enough HK, didn't know he already paid for them. If he had not, would a parent still be able to buy it as a gift without breaking the law?

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to promote/advocate/advise/etc any illegal behavior, just seeking knowledge.

blume357 · September 11, 2009, 08:50 AM

all the internet lawyers trying to figure out how to legally get around a really stupid law that serve no real purpose.

Sounds to me like the young guy needs to pay the FFL to ship it back tot he seller and let them fix it or pay them more to modify it.

September 9, 2009, 11:13 PM	#1
gadgetguy1288 Member Join Date: January 30, 2008 Location: Elizabeth City, NC Posts: 89	confused about a transfer. Well My 2 spikes lowers got to my FFL yesterday, and my bushmaster that i ordered came in today. I went there this afternoon to pick them up and when he called the FBI number they told him i was not old enough to make the transfer! WHAT?!?!?! Im 20 yrs old, turning 21 in December. He called them back to talk to someone higher up and they told him that im able to transfer the rifle, just not the receivers. how can that be???? Back in July I had purchased a stag stripped lower while on vacation in WI, and everything went fine! I got back here to AK, and decided I was going to buy a complete rifle before getting into a build, and sold it. But i was still able to have it transfered to me!!!!! did the law change since July? SOMEONE HELP ME!! I really don't want to have let my lowers sit at my ffl, and hold off on my 6.8 build for 4 months!! If this doesn't belong in this section, can the Mods please move it? Thanks __________________ Randy "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government, or in the case of a zombie outbreak."

September 10, 2009, 12:44 AM	#2
Zak Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 1999 Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA Posts: 2,682	It's because a stripped lower can be made into a pistol or a rifle. It's not sold as either technically. __________________ Zak Smith . DEMIGOD LLC . THUNDER BEAST ARMS CORP . COLORADO MULTI-GUN *My PM inbox full? Send e-mail instead.*

September 10, 2009, 05:19 AM	#3
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	I thought the registered part had to be documented as one or the other? You can't make a ruger 10/22 receiver into a pistol (Ruger Charger). But you can make a Charger pistol into a 'legal' 10/22 rifle ... longer barrel and full stock.

September 10, 2009, 06:41 PM	#13
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	I disagree on this one. The stripped receiver is considered a Title I Firearm and the manufacturing tax has already been paid for it. The FFL isn't manufacturing a firearm, he his changing the classification. An FFL can bolt a shoulder stock to a PG only shotgun and sell it to an under 21 as a "shotgun" without being considered the manufacturer. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

September 10, 2009, 06:54 PM	#14
jgcoastie Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 2,118	? For the OP Is your father available to pick up the lowers? It wouldn't be a "straw man purchase" if your father/mother bought it intending for it to be a gift for you. Would it? __________________ "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.

September 10, 2009, 05:27 AM	#4
Xanatos Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2009 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 132	AR stripped lower receivers are tricky. I originally bought a full AR-15 and for my 6.8 build I planned on building it, but when I went to my LGS I was told I had to be 21 to buy a stripped lower receiver, but they would gladly sell me a completed rifle receiver. I think part of the same law is making shotguns with pistol grips for 21+ only too. It's stupid, but whatever. Depending on the laws of your state, you may have to get a friend to pick them up for you and then do a bill of sale once you leave the store (that's the policy at my LGS, they'll advise you on how to legally get around the law as long as you don't do it inside their store).

September 10, 2009, 06:40 AM	#5
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	You order a gun, have a friend pick it up and then do a bill of sale in the parking lot? This can only end badly if push ever comes to shove. What about the question on the 4473 - Are you the actual purchaser? John

September 10, 2009, 07:05 AM	#6
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	[Depending on the laws of your state, you may have to get a friend to pick them up for you and then do a bill of sale once you leave the store (that's the policy at my LGS, they'll advise you on how to legally get around the law as long as you don't do it inside their store). ] That is the very definition of a "strawman purchase", is illegal, and prosecutable by BATFE. BATFE uses that very method to catch out FFL's who "cheat" thusly. The last prosecution, in my local area, lost his FFL forever, can have NO firearms in his sporting goods/engraving shop, and was assessed a $50,000 fine, which got plea bargained down to $10K. Every firearm that was in his store got removed by BATFE, and was later placed on consignment sale at another local FFL. If you're gonna play, you'll eventually pay. .

September 10, 2009, 07:39 AM	#7
gotigers Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2009 Location: Memphis Posts: 353	have your FFL install the lower's components and upper, register it, then transfer the complete rifle.

September 10, 2009, 09:05 AM	#8
berettaprofessor Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2008 Posts: 1,091	How about if the FFL gives you a table in the back and lets you build the lowers and then transfers them as rifles? Takes, what, about 30 minutes/lower? Wouldn't that be legal?

September 10, 2009, 12:41 PM	#9
Xanatos Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2009 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 132	Wow that was posted late last night and I feel stupid for not reading that through twice before posting. What I meant was, have a friend buy the stripped lower receiver, build it into a completed rifle length receiver, and then sell it to you as such.

September 10, 2009, 07:13 PM	#16
jgcoastie Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 2,118	Fair enough HK, didn't know he already paid for them. If he had not, would a parent still be able to buy it as a gift without breaking the law? Disclaimer: I'm not trying to promote/advocate/advise/etc any illegal behavior, just seeking knowledge. __________________ "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.

September 11, 2009, 08:50 AM	#17
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	Gez, guys & gals... not really critisizing but it is interesting to see all the internet lawyers trying to figure out how to legally get around a really stupid law that serve no real purpose. Sounds to me like the young guy needs to pay the FFL to ship it back tot he seller and let them fix it or pay them more to modify it.

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