Machine Guns

[WeedWacker]

I have a MG related question:

If an AR is using a 100 rd mag like the G36 C-mag is it a light machine gun? (Always wondered and had suspicions but nothing conclusive)

[GeorgeF]

If an AR is using a 100 rd mag like the G36 C-mag is it a light machine gun?

Good question, but not really. There's a little more to it. You will generally have the 'Light Machine Gun' versons with heavier barrels if nothing else. Since they will be used more as a squad support weapon (expected to fire 100's of rounds in an engagement as opposed to a few magazines in a normal rifle), they will commonly have features like built in bipods, fire from open bolt and the heavy barrel as I mentioned.

Just because a normal rifle has the higher ammo capacity, its not necessarily a LMG now. But from just looking at them side by side I can see how it would appear so.

[44 AMP]

The M240 is the latest incarnation of the Belgian Mag 58 with some improvements. The US first adopted it as a replacement for the M219 co-ax gun on the M60A3 (RISE) tanks. We were just getting them when I left the service. I learned to take it apart, but left before we had any come in to the shop for repair. Considering one demonstration I saw I don't think many came in for repair, or very often.

It was a rather impressive demonstration of what kind of abuse the gun could take. It was winter, and the snow was a couple of feet deep. Using belts linked together, the gun fired a couple of thousand rounds in one looong burst! Then it was dismounted (coax gun) using asbestos gloves, and thrown out of the loaders hatch, landing in the snow, and sinking out of sight in a cloud of steam. The loader climbed out, dug up the gun, made sure the barrel was clear, remounted it in the tank, and fired another 2,000 rounds in one long burst!

No stoppage, no jam. We were impressed! The M219, which was an "improvement" of the M73A1, which was an "improvement" of the M73 was lucky to finish one belt without a malfunction! Actually that is a bit of an exaggeration, but with some of the tread heads running the thing it was true all too often. Here's an illustration,

I was part of the contact team at the Grafenwoehr ranges, and had my spade game interrupted. You could hear it coming, whenever there was machine gun firing, followed by a single shot, you knew there would be someone at the small arms truck within a few minutes.

So, here I am, just about to bust my sarg's nil when a tanker shows up holding the reciever of the coax gun (M219).
"What's wrong with it?"
"It don't f***ing work!". Apparently weapons diagnostics wasn't his strong suit. I took the gun, opened it, and started looking for trouble. Nothing broken, no obvious failures, not really any serious wear. In short I couldn't find anything wrong. So I gave it back to him.
"can't find anything wrong, try it again." He takes the gun and leaves. Back to the game.

About half an hour later, he is back, with the gun.
"Well?"
"It still don't ****ing work!"
This time, I dig out the manual, and detail strip the reciever. Everything that isn't welded or rivetted to the reciever comes off and gets inspected. There isn't any mechanical reason I can find for a malfunction. I reassemble it, and send him on his way.

About 45 minutes later, guess who? This time he not only has the gun, he has his CO with him, who is looking rather upset. I am also getting a bit pissed, because I know the CO has been told that it is my fault his gun "don't f***ing work".

So, before he can come out with "Specialist, why haven't you fixed my F***ING GUN?!" (Captains in line companies are seldom polite to maint E-4s when they think they are in the right), I grab the gun from the loader and start walking towards the firing line. "Which one is your track?" I demand as they follow. This is a technical violation of the rules, which prohibit us from working on the guns on the firing line.

We get to the track, I hand the gun to the loader, and climb aboard. Loader follows, and inside the turret I tell him, "Okay, show me!"

He mounts the gun, puts a belt in it, pulls back the charging handle, and has the gunner trip the switch. The bolt moves forward slightly, and stops.
"I f**king told you, it don't f**king work!" the loader smugly informs me. The CO is in the t/c's hatch, watching.

I have spotted the problem. It is insufficient operator headspace.

There are two ways to load the gun. 1)with the bolt forward, you put the leading round in the belt behind the belt holding pawls, close the cover and pull the bolt back. 2) with the bolt back, you put the leading round of the belt against the cartridge stop on the feed tray, and close the cover. Anything else causes an instant jam.

The highly trained loader has placed the round against the stop on the feed tray with the bolt forward, closed the cover, and yanked the bolt back. Apparantly what he has done the previous times as well. So, naturally, it didn't f***ing work!

I says to the loader (so the CO could hear) "It's ******* broke, right?"
"******* A! it's broke!" he answers.

I open the cover, take out the belt, snap off about four rounds (to get the bent ones out of the way), load the gun correctly, and lean on the manual trigger. Gun chews it's way through the rest of the belt with no trouble.
"Yep, sure looks ******* broke to me!"

As I climb out of the track I can hear the CO starting to chew on the loader.

Later that day they had trouble with the .50cal on the Battalion Commander's track. A fresh faced 2nd Lt came to my shop truck, and asked me if I would be willing to take a look at it. I'll save that story for another time.

[GeorgeF]

Thanks for the story! It just goes to show you that just because someone is a soldier or a police officer, they dont necessarily know their way around firearms.

Armorers are that exception who need to know it all and how it all works.

Too funny to hear about smart-ass guys who get their ignorance handed back to them.

[max popenker]

Do you have a copy of The Machine Gun by Col Chinn? This is a huge multi volume reference work, created for the Navy Dept. It cost a whole buch as books, but can be had on CD-ROM for under $20. If it isn't in there, it probably doesn't exist

The last sentence (marked in bold) is not true. Chinn is very inaccurate and incomplete when writing about Soviet and other Com-bloc weapons. Honestly, can't blame him as there were not best times to study Soviet guns in detail
I can attest to that - i have all 5 volumes of Chinn and now in process of writing just another MG book myself

[mxwelch]

44,
Funny story. Thanks for sharing.

[madmag]

Not a question,

but if you ever have a chance to go to the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot just outside of Louisville Kentucky...don't pass up the opportunity. I lived in Louisville so I could go every year. You have to be there to appreciate a line full of MG's. Everything from an electric mini-gun to Quad 50's. AK's, AR's, Thompson .45 MG, and about anything else you can imagine. You can pay to rent most of these guns. I shot many in the Military..so I just watch. Sounds like a small war when they make the range hot. I have lived all across the US but never been to a range that allows MG's on a daily basis. Also, you can go on a normal day and have a guy with an WWII air cooled .30 MG shooting next to your table....loud but interesting.

[mxwelch]

Not a question,

but if you ever have a chance to go to the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot just outside of Louisville Kentucky...don't pass up the opportunity. I lived in Louisville so I could go every year. You have to be there to appreciate a line full of MG's. Everything from an electric mini-gun to Quad 50's. AK's, AR's, Thompson .45 MG, and about anything else you can imagine. You can pay to rent most of these guns. I shot many in the Military..so I just watch. Sounds like a small war when they make the range hot. I have lived all across the US but never been to a range that allows MG's on a daily basis. Also, you can go on a normal day and have a guy with an WWII air cooled .30 MG shooting next to your table....loud but interesting

I go every year. It's a fun place to spend so big money. In fact I'm going in April.

[Maser]

Well, I haven't served but have lots of respect for the men and women who are. My dad and uncle both served in Desert Storm, my grandpa in Vietnam, and my great grandpa in Korea. Too bad no one I know in my family was ever in WW2. That's my favorite war. Not that I glorify war, it's just I love all the weaponry of that era. Both ally and axis weaponry. I would have loved to hear WW2 stories told to me by someone who was actually there. My grandpa who was in Nam may be boring as heck, but he tells great stories and tells them so good that it almost feels like you're there.

Anyways, now on to the fun things.....Machine Guns!!
By that age of 8 years old I had already shot 6 different types of full autos.

Thompson
Sten MKII
Micro UZI
Full length UZI
M16
AK47

The Thompson was by far my favorite. I was very small for my age and that gun was very easy for my tiny self to control. It still to this day is my favorite. I am very fortunate to have my uncle as a class III dealer live nearby. Not in Cali of course. In Nevada. It's so cool because his ranch is huge and can actually have a small plane land there and there a small runway near my house for crop dusters and other small planes. All it takes is a phone call and some gas money for the plane and I am then in NFA paradise.

I can't exactly complain about machine guns that much other than the M4s I shot. They were very jam happy. It could of been just faulty magazines, but still was very annoying. I still feel nothing beats an AK47 in the full auto reliability catagory. Another gun I didn't like was the full auto M14 I shot. That thing kicked the heck out of me. My shoulder was so bruised the next day.

[Trebor]

Ok, so who has some "shooters tips 'n tricks" for the UZI?

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Hiya fellas.

I'm new posting here, being a moderator on www.mg42.us, and wanted to join in the talk about machineguns, particularly German WWII MG's. Old school is my style, and the history aspect of firearms is my main draw. I own an MG-42, MP-40, and Sten Mk II, all C&R originals, and participate in reenactments. If anyone has any questions about these firearms, feel free to ask. My personal website is at www.stormthewalls.com.

DARIVS ARCHITECTVS
Kurt Suleski
Knight's Armoury
Anoka, MN
-[----

[shaggy]

I'm new posting here, being a moderator on www.mg42.us, and wanted to join in the talk about machineguns, particularly German WWII MG's. Old school is my style, and the history aspect of firearms is my main draw. I own an MG-42, MP-40, and Sten Mk II, all C&R originals, and participate in reenactments.

Welcome Kurt. I didn't know there was a discussion board dedicated to the '42. FWIW, I just registered there (same name "shaggy") and will be checking out the boards there now too. I bought a C&R '42 (Maget) about three years ago, also have a 1919A4 and several other NFA.

[OneShotOnly!]

I have a Russian PK 7.62x54R belt fed.
I like the effective range and cheap ammo to blast away anytime anyday.

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Welcome Kurt. I didn't know there was a discussion board dedicated to the '42. FWIW, I just registered there (same name "shaggy") and will be checking out the boards there now too. I bought a C&R '42 (Maget) about three years ago, also have a 1919A4 and several other NFA.

Hiya Shaggy, mg42.us has a small and fun crowd of members, many of which home-builder semi auto MG-42's for their own use. I also have a C&R CRA MG42, built in mid-1943, and all the basic accessories for it. It still gets used about once a year, and is only fired with 8mm. It's not outfitted with parts to allow .308 Nato ammo shooting. Minnesota seems to have an abnormally large concentration of WWII C&R firearms of all types. Next weekend a few friends and I are going to have some fun at the range with subguns and rifles (MP-40, Sten Mk II and k98's). Anyone near the Twin Cities want to join us?

DARIVS ARCHITECTVS
Kurt Suleski
Knight's Armoury
Anoka, MN
-[----

[dustinlowery]

THe Canuck
Okay smart guys, here's one...

If the (three setting) gas regulator/plug on a C-6 (M-240) is improperly seated , how far will it fly when you fire the gun?

I'll tell the story after I get a few answers...

i was the #2 on the the c-6 in the SF role for a raid and it flew far enough to search for it for 30 min in biv 4 in petawawa and get jacked up for it the whole ex but it was only 7-8ft in front of us after bouncing of some bushes though

[44 AMP]

The M240 was just being introduced to the US Army when I was short. I got to look at one, and tear it down once, but we never had any to work on before I left.

I did get a chance to spend some time with a Canadian SP Arty unit, but back in those days they were using the Browning .30, modded to .308 (7.62 Nato).

They also let me shoot their FALs, Sterlings, and Hi Powers. Fun times.

[dustinlowery]

well we got rid of the FALs, browning .30 and sterlings and replace the with c-6(m240) c-9(SAW), C-7 and C-8's but were still stuck with those awful brownings

[JamesC2]

Here's mine, never had a problem with it as long as I use FMJ and stay away from cheap ammo. Any body want to help me, I can't get the picture to show.

[shaggy]

Here 'ya go , JimC2

[HondaCowboy82]

i love the M60 and the 240B. In regards to the overall effectiveness, both are extreme firepower and combat multipliers on the battlefield. The only complaint is that both are extremely heavy. We carried one (60) for exercises while we were at Army Warrior Forge, and i can really see why the Army decide against the design after lugging it around. The Army is trying to lighten the load on the 240B as we speak. they are now testing the effectiveness of a 4 INCH SHORTER BARREL WHICH KNOWCKS THE WEIGHT DOWN 1.5 POUNDS. ANYTHING CAN HELP

[44 AMP]

At 23lbs the orginal M60 is a bunch to lug around, but compared to the Browning 1919A6 at 32lbs it is a light weight.

We called it the "pig" when we had to carry it or work on it, but maybe it should have been called the "cow". It sure was a cash cow for the manufacturers. These faults have been known for a long time, but for those who haven't heard them yet, here we go.

M60 problems/deficiencies:

Heavy - only in the eyes of people who never had to schlep around even heavier machine guns.

The gun chews itself up when it fires. Bolts and op rods chew each other up, and the op rod needs frequent stoning (and eventual replacement) to maintin serviceability.

The feed tray is flimsy, and the rivets for the hanger break very easily.

The bipod is on the barrel, meaning each spare barrel has to have a bipod, adding weight and cost. Problem corrected in late versions of the M60 (IIRC)

The carry handle is on the gun, not the barrel, meaning you can't use it to change a hot barrel. There was an asbestos "oven mit" issued to handle the hot barel. Again, more cost and complexity.

And the design of the sear/op rod interface meansd that the sear is subject to accelerated wear. Also a few parts (bolt roller, gas piston) can be installed backwards, with unfortunate results.

All in all, considering it was designed by a comittee, by taking features or ideas from other guns, it is a wonder it works as well as it does. The new FN design (M240) is a better gun.