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Old June 3, 2021, 12:45 AM   #51
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I'm still trying to spend my way to better shooting.
Me to

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Old June 3, 2021, 01:07 AM   #52
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I agree with the bipod and and rear bag suggestion. It is my preferred way to shoot both heavy and lighter guns. I have seen ES and SD numbers open up when shooting off of bags only. It is more difficult to hold the rifle the exact same way every time.

I will take my Browning out this weekend in 308 and test it with identical ammunition from the bags and the bipod for giggles. I will report my results here.
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Old June 3, 2021, 01:42 AM   #53
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I shot prone off a bi-pod yesterday for the first time in at least 2 years maybe 3 . Sometimes you forget how fun things can be . I really have not been shooting rifle much in the last 3+ years . Got into pistol reloading and my main shooting buddy is a pistol guy so that's what I've been shooting the last couple years . He came out yesterday but left with in an hour , like I said he's not a rifle guy . Yesterday reminded me how much I miss shooting rifle . Only was shooting out to 300yds but that was fun . Shot both bolt guns and semi's , I was out there for 5 hours all by my self and loved every minute . Dialed in ( to 300yds anyways ) two new scopes and loads . I think I'm ready to come back home to the shooting I love , RIFLE shooting !!!
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Old June 3, 2021, 09:15 AM   #54
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I often shoot in F Open using a bipod and a bunny ear bag instead of using my rest. Much easier to tote back and forth to the line. That is prone though, I find a bipod awkward shooting from a bench. That is just me though
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Old June 3, 2021, 10:37 AM   #55
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Bi-pod on a bench tends to hop because you can’t load it . Which results in larger groups for me . At least that’s been my experience others may have different results.
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Old June 3, 2021, 11:02 AM   #56
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Bi-pod off the bench...I use a rear CrossTac bag (they have a heavy and light, I use heavy for bench) and load the bi-pod. That is usually just a wood board clamped to the bench.

If I can't do that, then with either my left hand if shooting close, or with a paracord loop around either my arm or foot, put downward force on the bi-pod sufficient to lock the rubber feet to the benchtop. Got to stop the hop.
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Old June 3, 2021, 05:51 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
Right pretty rifle

I thought patriots had a adjustable trigger. You can do 2 - 7 pounds. See page 5 and 6 of your owners manual or just look here

http://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/u...ERS-MANUAL.pdf

some basics before bedding the stock, do the dollar bill test to check to make sure the barrel is not touching the wood anywhere. Invest in a good torque screwdriver to play with action screw settings

edit The Vortex torque screwdriver is excellent for the price, I have it and both the mechanical and electronic Wheeler. If you really want a Wheeler go mechanical, the electronic version sucks. You will need one of these for all your rifles and scopes if you pursue the sport, might as well buy now

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

Like I keep saying though, that factory barrel is the big choke point. Best trigger, stock, and load in the world will not overcome a bad barrel and Mossbergs are not known for thier quality barrels.
yes she is, that's one of the main reasons she came home with me. But she has been a fickle mistress so far.

The trigger does not go up that high. The screw was flush with the housing(all the way in I believe) from the factory and it was at 2.75lb. I screwed it about 1/2 way out and it dropped to 2.0lb even. I may try tightening it all the way and see how heavy she goes. But at 2.75lb it had a bad issue with cream right before the break and it was giving me a wicked flinch.

The barrel is over free floated. it has close to 1/8in all the way around

I have the wheeler torque screw driver. Works pretty well. however Mossberg recommends 25in lb on the action screws. I have done some looking and some people have pushed up to 35in lb. but lots of people have broken the floating mag well too....

All I am asking is for the barrel to hold moa. It has done just a hare over MOA with factory match ammo. I am hoping my hand loads tuned to the gun will give me consistent MOA. If not I can deal with 1.16moa for a while.
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Old June 3, 2021, 05:52 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by kilotanker22 View Post
I agree with the bipod and and rear bag suggestion. It is my preferred way to shoot both heavy and lighter guns. I have seen ES and SD numbers open up when shooting off of bags only. It is more difficult to hold the rifle the exact same way every time.

I will take my Browning out this weekend in 308 and test it with identical ammunition from the bags and the bipod for giggles. I will report my results here.
that's interesting.... I may look into a cheap bipod. but I want to try my other idea first.
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Old June 3, 2021, 08:28 PM   #59
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that's interesting.... I may look into a cheap bipod. but I want to try my other idea first.
I bought a Caldwell Bipod for like $60 at a local store and I actually like it. You don't have to have a $300-$500 Atlas or some other bipod to shoot well.

I use a Leather bunny ears bag, filled with sand, that is made locally to me. Can't remember the name, but they are excellent bags.
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Old June 3, 2021, 09:07 PM   #60
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You might just pull it off Shadow, these 3 shot groups don't mean squat but there is potential there. I had not really looked at this target close, I was more interested in the velocity data than the group sizes. I was surprised when I scanned the pic into OnTarget and actually looked at the group sizes

These were just three shot groups and three shot groups don't mean squat but I will load some more up @ 44.2 and shoot some 5 shot groups. These were shot off a cheap bipod and bunny ear bag. Big Horn action, KRG bravo stock, Savage 10 barrel with around 300 rounds down it that had been sitting in the corner since 2016. I have another similar length barrel on order but if this one can hold up for 10 rounds at a time I may just leave it on

Pic of the rifle, the Savage barrel and the best groups of the velocity test
Attached Images
File Type: jpg rifle.jpg (70.4 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg barrel.jpg (58.1 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg velocity test cropped.jpg (116.8 KB, 14 views)
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Old June 4, 2021, 01:11 PM   #61
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LC brass is some of the heaviest 308 brass available, and Win one of, if not the lightest brass available. LC has more than "a touch less" capacity. Combined with using a magnum primer would echo Uncle Nick's advise. Whenever there is a flat spot in velocity curve, am getting very wary, especially if your velocity's are up there beyond load manuals. Instead on relying on pressure signs, would be putting the money on recorded velocity comparisons for load limits, and group size over es readings.

Depending on your purpose for the rifle, may influence how you test for accuracy. If it is a hunting rifle and you expect to use both hands on it, might consider testing it that way and 3 shot groups are plenty.
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Old June 4, 2021, 03:08 PM   #62
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it is a hunting rifle. but at the moment I am working up precision match type loads with some hornady 168g OTM bullets. These it will be shot off a bench and for the moment my range is shut down to 200yds for berm work. but once they open up they have paper out to 500.

After I get this load dialed in I will be switching over to Hornady 150g interlock soft points to work up a hunting load. But since I have a while until season opens I figured I would see what the rifle is capable of and have some fun and refine my methodology for working up loads before I switch over to my hunting bullets.
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Old June 4, 2021, 03:29 PM   #63
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Whenever there is a flat spot in velocity curve, am getting very wary, especially if your velocity's are up there beyond load manuals.
great advice.

That load test pic I posted is a good example. Velocities between 43.9 and 44.2 are flat as a pancake and I was approaching max velocity as per Barnes load published data. I believe it was Uncle Nick who posted several years ago that this was caused by the case stretching and expanding. I stopped testing at 44.2 even though Barnes maximum for that bullet and powder was 44.6 and the primers were still nice and rounded and bolt lift was normal. Sometimes you just have to apply common sense.
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Last edited by hounddawg; June 4, 2021 at 03:35 PM.
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Old June 4, 2021, 05:16 PM   #64
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I believe it was Uncle Nick who posted several years ago that this was caused by the case stretching and expanding.
I'd like a little more context to this theory . The case always expands and stretches on just about every charge past start loads so there must be more to this idea ? My thinking is the chamber and bore them selves are stretching/expanding ?
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Old June 4, 2021, 05:36 PM   #65
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I'd like a little more context to this theory . The case always expands and stretches on just about every charge past start loads so there must be more to this idea ? My thinking is the chamber and bore them selves are stretching/expanding ?
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No idea, I may even have gotten it wrong with my oldfartitus syndrome. Might not have even been UN, maybe he will chime in

edit - I did a lot of searching and cannot find anything to back that up. Regardless since I was approaching max velocity I stopped testing at that point. Not only for safety but because the velocity had flattened nicely and I can live with velocities around 2675 FPS.

For further tuning I want to keep this load magazine length so I have two options. Either go with the 43.9 and load some @ 44.0 44.1 etc to try and bring that vertical string into a more round group or load up a bunch at 44.2 and bring the bullet back into the case .03 at a time ( 2.797, 2.794, 2.791 etc etc) to get the groups to tighten. I will probably go with option 2

@ Shadow9mm

no reason a hunting rifle cannot be accurate. The rifle above is just 7.5 pounds without that target scope. The new barrel is the same length and taper but without the fluting and threaded muzzle. Not exactly a featherweight, but add a small 1 - 4 x scope and it would be usable for hunting. There is a 90% chance I will be able to get it into the high 4's or low 5's with the Shilen barrel. Checked the throat on the Savage barrel today, at 2.80 OAL I was doing a .157 jump on that load test

A buddy of mine has his beanfield guns smithed by some of the best smiths in the region. He never shoots in competitions but I saw him line up some clay pigeons on the 800 yard berm and nail in 5 a row with his pencil barreled deer rifle one calm evening.
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Last edited by hounddawg; June 4, 2021 at 11:09 PM.
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Old June 6, 2021, 06:07 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by MarkCO View Post
Bi-pod off the bench...I use a rear CrossTac bag (they have a heavy and light, I use heavy for bench) and load the bi-pod. That is usually just a wood board clamped to the bench.

If I can't do that, then with either my left hand if shooting close, or with a paracord loop around either my arm or foot, put downward force on the bi-pod sufficient to lock the rubber feet to the benchtop. Got to stop the hop.
Great ideas. I only use a bipod off a bench, although these benches have a rubber surface which seems to grip the legs enough that they seem to preload fine. With my loads, shooting sub MOA regularly generally isn’t a problem I may try these methods to see if any improvement can be detected. Of course this will require a lot more shooting to gather enough data so I guess I better get busy.

Last edited by jetinteriorguy; June 9, 2021 at 06:02 AM.
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Old June 8, 2021, 07:21 AM   #67
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Shadow9mm
Was able to get the 65guys excel sheet. here's how the graphs came out.

Attached ImagesFile Type:
png graph 1.png (43.9 KB, 131 views)
png GRAPH 2.png (52.2 KB, 131 views)
Shaddow9mm,

Sorry late to your party! Just saw those graphs.

I think its possible that you have 2 errs in the measurements or reload quality control of the 40 rounds.

1) The high velocity point at 45.2 grains and
2) The low velocity point at 47.0 grains

Re-figure the stats and re-plot the graphs without those 2 points and you will get an entirely different picture of the results!
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Old June 8, 2021, 08:14 AM   #68
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I got an inexpensive little Cauldwell tripod for shooting off a bench. Nice little tripod but about all I shoot off of is a 6x6 about a foot long with a large sand bag I made on it. I think the broad flat surface across the bag helps hold the rifle steadier. Have a small sand bag, home made, I use in my left hand under the butt of the stock.
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Old June 10, 2021, 09:07 PM   #69
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Shadow,

Coincidentally, I recently bought some Hornady 165 gr BTSP and tried them with BLC-(2). I ended up finding a decent hunting load using Nosler's published most accurate load with a 165 and that powder. Not sure how your brass will fair, I am using Lapua large primer brass.

I tested that laid at .015" off lands and then seated to the canelure. The cartridges with the bullets seated to the canelure shot pretty well(.6 moa). My velocity from a 22" barrel was like 2740. Es was 24. I figure that is plenty for hunting here in Northern PA.
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