Loading with old components

JasoninSD · May 20, 2021, 09:23 PM

I was loading for a 380 ACP last night and in the back of my powder stash I found a a bit of Hercules Unique that I bought in 1989 when I first started loading. The powder did not smell "off" so I figured why open a new can. I matched this up with some Winchester small pistol primers that I would have bought during the great component shortage of 94-95. Lo and behold, they went bang today.

I often see posts asking about how long components will last, so I thought I would throw this out there for someone's edification.

Jason

BillyBoy 57 · May 20, 2021, 10:27 PM

I am using large rifle primers from 1974 , no issues .

Geezerbiker · May 20, 2021, 11:02 PM

I have some powders that are likely 50 years old and still good. Just be sure to check them for a bad smell. Most good smokeless powders smell about the same but bad powers have a really off smell. It's hard to describe but most know it when they come across it...

Tony

HiBC · May 21, 2021, 03:24 AM

I still have CCI primers that came in the small boxes with wooden divider trays.
Those used to sell for under a dollar.
I'm sure they are fine.
I'd probably select something fresher for SD/carry ammo or "hunt of a lifetime" ammo.
Powder? If color and composition is right,and smell I'll use it.

Thats about all that has any shelf life.

kerreckt · May 21, 2021, 06:59 AM

I have used 40+ year old powder and primers. They have been stored properly and they go bang. Proper storage is the key factor. Stable temperature and moderate to low humidity.

Mike / Tx · May 21, 2021, 07:44 AM

Like others I'm loading both primers and powders that are decades old. All have been stored in roughly 70-75* temps and low humidity.

Most of it is used for practice ammo and target but some still deliver plenty of punch and accuracy for hunting rounds.

101combatvet · May 21, 2021, 07:47 AM

I recently found a stash of IMR 4895 in an eight pound keg. A few pounds are still in the keg, but the metal keg has rusted, leaving rust mixed in with the powder. I plan to get a fine screen, separate the two, and fire a few test loads to see how it does.

**Unclenick** · May 21, 2021, 07:53 AM

If your powder is from a bulk lot that came out with the right burn rate and didn't need any adjusting, then all the powder in the lot is going to be the same age and might last seventy-five years. But when you look at all the recalls for the premature breakdown of specific lots of powders, you realize there is no guarantee you got an unadjusted lot number (the adjustment is done by mixing with past faster or slower (whichever is needed) held-back lots of the same powder type to arrive at the correct final burn rate). So you just have to check what you have every time you pull it out to use it.

Rusting of a can, if it initiated on the inside, is likely due to acids from powder breakdown. If it started on the outside, it may just be rust. If the powder passes the smell test and isn't oily looking, and if you pour some on a white sheet of paper and shake it and don't see fine red dust left behind on the paper when you return the powder to its container, it may be OK.

gwpercle · May 21, 2021, 01:24 PM

I've got powders and primers , properly stored in an inside closet , that are 50 + years old ... purchased from 1967 to 1971 Cans of H4895 , 5 lb container of Unique , several containers of Alcan #5 powder , S&W and Alcan primers ... and they are all still good and I still use these items to make up reloads in ..."Hard Times" ... this isn't the first shortage you know ...You nver know when you are going to need something ... so keep it .
Note ... there are NO expiration dates on powders or primers and my experience shows 50 years is a minimum ... 75 years easy if stored properly .
I've got loaded WWII ammo that is still shootable 30-06 . 45 acp and 9mm luger all 78 years old and it still goes bang ... my HD 1911 is loaded with some WWII 45 acp G.I. Hardball !
Gary

**Unclenick** · May 21, 2021, 04:26 PM

It's hit or miss. There are a number of photos you can find online of a Garand blown up (including the receiver ring; not just a burst case) by 1947 military ammo. You can also find folks who fired FA 1929 ball ammo and had no trouble. You are correct about how long you can keep old powder, but keep in mind a jar of powder is only as young as the oldest powder in it. So if it was blended with something that was already nearly 40 years old, then it's not going to be as long-lived in the jar as you hope.

By the way, this is a worsening situation. A lot of the old powders you have, like your H4895, was an unblended bulk powder made for the military in the U.S.A. and surplused out of stock. It was surplused-out because the military uses a very conservative 20-year stockpile limit for storing double-base propellants and a 45-year limit for single-base propellants or the cartridges loaded with them (where pull-down powder comes from). It wasn't until the ADI produced AR2206H for Hodgdon that H4895 ceased to be surplus, and that would have been sometime in the 1990s, IIRC.

Hodgdon told me a fresh lot of unblended spherical propellant should last 75 years if kept in a cool place, but they only claim a ten-year shelf-life. All the powder companies have tightened up on burn rate specs since then, so there is more blending now than there used to be. So I don't count on powders purchased new since about 2000 to necessarily last as long as some older examples I have lasted. The large number of lot# recalls since that date would tend to confirm this.

So, unfortunately, past experience with long powder life may not tell you much that's applicable to current production powder.

Norma guarantees their powder will last 10 years in proper storage. Mike at Hodgdon told me the whole industry only warrants powder will last 10 years. That's not something I'd heard before, but my guess is that means that if it goes bad after that length of time, they are not going to replace it for you.

Don Fischer · May 22, 2021, 10:07 AM

I gave my son, think I gave it to him, a suit case full of Super Balistite. Never could find but one load for it, seemed to be about like Bullseye but I didn't want to experiment with it to much. Stuff I did load with it all worked well though! Not a clue how old it is.

RC20 · May 22, 2021, 03:34 PM

Quote:

If the powder passes the smell test and isn't oily looking, and if you pour some on a white sheet of paper and shake it and don't see fine red dust left behind on the paper when you return the powder to its container, it may be OK.

Yea, I learned something. I had two of the three (smell and appearance) had not hear of oily.

But yes I bought powder that is on the Danger list that was made a few years back. Its fine but something went wrong with the batch.

Never assume. If something is not right appearance wise (rusty looking flakes or now the oil) or it doe snot small right, get rid of it, no matter how new it is.

Geezerbiker · May 22, 2021, 08:39 PM

Back in the early 2000's I had a computer job that paid very well but worked me insane hours. Every payday I'd stop off on the way home and buy a few reloading items. I would have stocked up more if I could have seen the way things are going now... Anyway I bought a can of 4895 and it's the only can of powder I've ever had go bad. The can was around 10 years old when I opened it and it was rusty on the inside and smelled bad.

On the other hand along the way I bought several cans of powder from an estate and in there was a can of 4895 from likely the 1970's and it was still good. I'm pretty sure I used that can up but other powers from that purchase are still good. I had to come up with a use for H380. I only have loads for it for a couple calibers I shoot...

For what it's worth, if it still smells like gun powder and doesn't look degraded, I'll load it...

Tony

the45er · May 25, 2021, 03:18 PM

I've never had a powder, properly stored, go bad. I loaded A BUNCH of 12 gauge shells with Red Dot that was in a 12 lb "Tin" container. The "red dots" had lost their rich color, but I never had a single issue.

I just posted here about some 40 S&W loads I just tried with old, old Blue Dot. They went bang. Boy, did they go bang! I'm wondering if the burn characteristics of this powder has changed over the years. The recoil in a very light load (7.0 grains in a published maximum of 8.9 grains) of Blue Dot was brutal.

May 20, 2021, 09:23 PM	#1
JasoninSD Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 86	Loading with old components I was loading for a 380 ACP last night and in the back of my powder stash I found a a bit of Hercules Unique that I bought in 1989 when I first started loading. The powder did not smell "off" so I figured why open a new can. I matched this up with some Winchester small pistol primers that I would have bought during the great component shortage of 94-95. Lo and behold, they went bang today. I often see posts asking about how long components will last, so I thought I would throw this out there for someone's edification. Jason

May 21, 2021, 07:44 AM	#6
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	Like others I'm loading both primers and powders that are decades old. All have been stored in roughly 70-75* temps and low humidity. Most of it is used for practice ammo and target but some still deliver plenty of punch and accuracy for hunting rounds. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX

May 21, 2021, 07:47 AM	#7
101combatvet Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2011 Posts: 667	I recently found a stash of IMR 4895 in an eight pound keg. A few pounds are still in the keg, but the metal keg has rusted, leaving rust mixed in with the powder. I plan to get a fine screen, separate the two, and fire a few test loads to see how it does. __________________ Special Operations Combat Veteran Gunsmith, BS, MFA, Competitive Shooter NRA Certified Firearms Instructor [9 Certifications]

May 21, 2021, 07:53 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	If your powder is from a bulk lot that came out with the right burn rate and didn't need any adjusting, then all the powder in the lot is going to be the same age and might last seventy-five years. But when you look at all the recalls for the premature breakdown of specific lots of powders, you realize there is no guarantee you got an unadjusted lot number (the adjustment is done by mixing with past faster or slower (whichever is needed) held-back lots of the same powder type to arrive at the correct final burn rate). So you just have to check what you have every time you pull it out to use it. Rusting of a can, if it initiated on the inside, is likely due to acids from powder breakdown. If it started on the outside, it may just be rust. If the powder passes the smell test and isn't oily looking, and if you pour some on a white sheet of paper and shake it and don't see fine red dust left behind on the paper when you return the powder to its container, it may be OK. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 21, 2021, 04:26 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	It's hit or miss. There are a number of photos you can find online of a Garand blown up (including the receiver ring; not just a burst case) by 1947 military ammo. You can also find folks who fired FA 1929 ball ammo and had no trouble. You are correct about how long you can keep old powder, but keep in mind a jar of powder is only as young as the oldest powder in it. So if it was blended with something that was already nearly 40 years old, then it's not going to be as long-lived in the jar as you hope. By the way, this is a worsening situation. A lot of the old powders you have, like your H4895, was an unblended bulk powder made for the military in the U.S.A. and surplused out of stock. It was surplused-out because the military uses a very conservative 20-year stockpile limit for storing double-base propellants and a 45-year limit for single-base propellants or the cartridges loaded with them (where pull-down powder comes from). It wasn't until the ADI produced AR2206H for Hodgdon that H4895 ceased to be surplus, and that would have been sometime in the 1990s, IIRC. Hodgdon told me a fresh lot of unblended spherical propellant should last 75 years if kept in a cool place, but they only claim a ten-year shelf-life. All the powder companies have tightened up on burn rate specs since then, so there is more blending now than there used to be. So I don't count on powders purchased new since about 2000 to necessarily last as long as some older examples I have lasted. The large number of lot# recalls since that date would tend to confirm this. So, unfortunately, past experience with long powder life may not tell you much that's applicable to current production powder. Norma guarantees their powder will last 10 years in proper storage. Mike at Hodgdon told me the whole industry only warrants powder will last 10 years. That's not something I'd heard before, but my guess is that means that if it goes bad after that length of time, they are not going to replace it for you. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 20, 2021, 10:27 PM	#2
BillyBoy 57 Member Join Date: December 5, 2020 Posts: 74	I am using large rifle primers from 1974 , no issues .

May 20, 2021, 11:02 PM	#3
Geezerbiker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: Willamina, OR Posts: 1,908	I have some powders that are likely 50 years old and still good. Just be sure to check them for a bad smell. Most good smokeless powders smell about the same but bad powers have a really off smell. It's hard to describe but most know it when they come across it... Tony

May 21, 2021, 03:24 AM	#4
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I still have CCI primers that came in the small boxes with wooden divider trays. Those used to sell for under a dollar. I'm sure they are fine. I'd probably select something fresher for SD/carry ammo or "hunt of a lifetime" ammo. Powder? If color and composition is right,and smell I'll use it. Thats about all that has any shelf life.

May 21, 2021, 06:59 AM	#5
kerreckt Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2011 Location: SE VA. Posts: 216	I have used 40+ year old powder and primers. They have been stored properly and they go bang. Proper storage is the key factor. Stable temperature and moderate to low humidity.

May 21, 2021, 01:24 PM	#9
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	I've got powders and primers , properly stored in an inside closet , that are 50 + years old ... purchased from 1967 to 1971 Cans of H4895 , 5 lb container of Unique , several containers of Alcan #5 powder , S&W and Alcan primers ... and they are all still good and I still use these items to make up reloads in ..."Hard Times" ... this isn't the first shortage you know ...You nver know when you are going to need something ... so keep it . Note ... there are NO expiration dates on powders or primers and my experience shows 50 years is a minimum ... 75 years easy if stored properly . I've got loaded WWII ammo that is still shootable 30-06 . 45 acp and 9mm luger all 78 years old and it still goes bang ... my HD 1911 is loaded with some WWII 45 acp G.I. Hardball ! Gary

May 22, 2021, 10:07 AM	#11
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	I gave my son, think I gave it to him, a suit case full of Super Balistite. Never could find but one load for it, seemed to be about like Bullseye but I didn't want to experiment with it to much. Stuff I did load with it all worked well though! Not a clue how old it is.

May 22, 2021, 08:39 PM	#13
Geezerbiker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: Willamina, OR Posts: 1,908	Back in the early 2000's I had a computer job that paid very well but worked me insane hours. Every payday I'd stop off on the way home and buy a few reloading items. I would have stocked up more if I could have seen the way things are going now... Anyway I bought a can of 4895 and it's the only can of powder I've ever had go bad. The can was around 10 years old when I opened it and it was rusty on the inside and smelled bad. On the other hand along the way I bought several cans of powder from an estate and in there was a can of 4895 from likely the 1970's and it was still good. I'm pretty sure I used that can up but other powers from that purchase are still good. I had to come up with a use for H380. I only have loads for it for a couple calibers I shoot... For what it's worth, if it still smells like gun powder and doesn't look degraded, I'll load it... Tony

May 25, 2021, 03:18 PM	#14
the45er Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2008 Location: The mini-hill country of Texas Posts: 254	I've never had a powder, properly stored, go bad. I loaded A BUNCH of 12 gauge shells with Red Dot that was in a 12 lb "Tin" container. The "red dots" had lost their rich color, but I never had a single issue. I just posted here about some 40 S&W loads I just tried with old, old Blue Dot. They went bang. Boy, did they go bang! I'm wondering if the burn characteristics of this powder has changed over the years. The recoil in a very light load (7.0 grains in a published maximum of 8.9 grains) of Blue Dot was brutal.