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Old March 21, 2018, 08:37 AM   #26
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
That's the center of the argument.

When folks say that they don't care anymore and are sick of arguing and the rhetoric turns out the choir, that's the problem.

I don't think gun rights can be defended just by riling up the choir with arguments that turn off anyone who was trying to discern a reasonable take on the truth.


It's attractive to buy into group polarization and live in your own opinion bubble. I disagree with that and maybe am too optimistic that better messaging might work.
^^^This. The same ol' "they're so stupid"(pound on chest), "shall not be infringed"(pound on chest again) is getting pretty old even for us ardent gun supporters. While it riles up those here, it has done little or nuttin' to change the opinions of folks outside of gun forums. It also has folks turning their heads and walking away in boredom whenever they hear it. So if and when there is something more significant to hear, they are already gone. Once folks get to name calling and personal attacks, the debate is lost, and this is where these types of threads always go. We whine about anti's using rhetoric, using rhetoric to do it. Somehow, that just don't make sense to me.
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Old March 21, 2018, 09:02 AM   #27
thallub
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Read what Double Naught Spy wrote in post #5.

My hog count pales in comparison to that of DNS but my experience mirrors his exactly.

The chest of a hog shot in the heart/lung area will be filled with bloody goo. Sometimes the diaphragm and liver are badly damaged.

Dr. (USA Colonel) Martin Fackler treated thousands of wounded troops. He is an authority on military bullet wounds.

http://kjg-munition.de/Zielwirkung/m..._patterns.html

BTW: The US military used hogs in the testing of rifle bullets.
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Old March 21, 2018, 09:41 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailgator
zukiphile, go back to last month's American Rifleman and read LaPierre's column. Dr. Meyer's comments are only slight exaggerations.
I cannot agree. It isn't a slight exaggeration of the argument to that the left wants to take guns so that kindergarten teachers can turn our children into socialists. It's a misrepresentation of the analysis. I asked if someone had said that because the allegation has been the same each time.

Lapierre correctly notes the growth of an idea that one's individual rights held against the state are to be subordinated to new and increasingly invasive state authority. One's rights to his income, his freedom to speak or not (in the form of "hate" speech criminal enhancements and state compelled speech, and limits on campaign speech), freedom of association in insurance and medical matters, freedom of religious practice, and right to keep and bear arms come under attack from a recognizable portion of the political spectrum. Those attacks rest on an analysis hostile to the concept of principled and enduring limits on state power. The 2d Am. is but one of those limits.

Amongst holders of elected office that portion of the spectrum is found in the american democrat party and european, labour, social democrat and socialist parties. There is enough commonality in these positions that american political players can find roles in Israel and western Europe.

LaPierre's point is both substantially correct and not reducible to "the left wants to take your guns so kindergarten teachers can turn your children into socialists", even in caricature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailgator
LaPierre rants about socialism and education, is overtly partisan, and comments on Obamacare and financing university education. (I don't have it hand to give you quotes.) Those are not the issues of the NRA. We should be a single-issue organization.
I think that is short sighted. The philosophy on which the 2d (and 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th,8th and 9th) Am. rests does not apply only to arms. Rhetorically stripping the 2d Am. from its foundation by silencing advocacy on other constitutional limits serves to trivialise the right itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailgator
As for partisanship, polls usually show something on the order of 1/3 of registered voters disagreeing with their party's line about gun control. Why would we want to alienate 1/3 of either party who agrees with us? That is something on the order of 50 million people whose support we reject by the rhetoric that is presented.
I doubt that explaining the problem has that effect. From Irving Kristol to Phil Graham and Jeane Kirkpatrick, democrats who disagree with the vision of the unlimited state have recognised the problem. Just because a person registers as a democrat doesn't mean he disagrees with a word of LaPierre's column.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailgator
Is the goal firing up the base? Fund raising? Or changing minds by calmly presenting well-reasoned arguments for the protection of gun rights?

Which of those goals stands the greatest hope of preserving gun rights for another generation?
I would not use that conjunction.

Firing up the base is a necessity; people who don't care are less likely to vote. Advocacy requires fundraising. Changing minds and gaining ground on an issue can involve calmly presented and well -reasoned arguments, as well as other sorts of arguments.
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Old March 21, 2018, 09:44 AM   #29
ThesNazud
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick
Yep, there are more powerful options out there, but a little bullet going super fast is nothing to discount. Especially at close ranges.
I remeber the old Velociter(sp?) round that I believe Remington made. .223 bullets saboted out of .30-06 and .308... if I remember correctly muzzle velocity was over 4000
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Old March 21, 2018, 10:02 AM   #30
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I think, zukiphile, that we are going to continue to disagree on this. The point I am trying to make is that, with the country roughly evenly split between two major parties, and only around 2/3 of a favored party opposing increased gun control, we are starting with a minority. If we alienate voters who may agree with us on gun issues, either by calling them idiots for their registration, or by bringing up other issues upon which to demand their allegiance, we will not achieve a majority. We need votes more than we need rhetoric, in my opinion. I think you and I can agree without being disagreeable - we are, I think, doing that right now in this thread. The current rhetoric of the NRA does not allow anyone to do that.
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Old March 21, 2018, 10:07 AM   #31
Glenn E. Meyer
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I agree with TailGator and don't need to repeat myself. One can agree or disagree that Wayne and Dana will be successful in the long run and whether their diatribes move anyone outside of the choir. That is an empirical question.
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Old March 21, 2018, 10:48 AM   #32
zukiphile
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Tailgator, persuasion will require communicating something important; one can't say anything important if he will not risk offending someone looking to be offended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailgator
I think, zukiphile, that we are going to continue to disagree on this. The point I am trying to make is that, with the country roughly evenly split between two major parties, and only around 2/3 of a favored party opposing increased gun control, we are starting with a minority. If we alienate voters who may agree with us on gun issues, either by calling them idiots for their registration, or by bringing up other issues upon which to demand their allegiance, we will not achieve a majority. We need votes more than we need rhetoric, in my opinion.
Pointing out the problems of a limitless state doesn't demand a seamless allegiance or call anyone an idiot for their registration. I do know a few socialists who are also 2d Am. fundamentalists; they recognise the internal tension.

I agree that votes are needed. I see more than one way to persuade people about it, but they will all involve rhetoric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailgator
I think you and I can agree without being disagreeable - we are, I think, doing that right now in this thread. The current rhetoric of the NRA does not allow anyone to do that.
I believe that it isn't just that you, Glenn and I are disagreeing without being disagreeable; we are disagreeing without being thin skinned, becoming indignant and looking for offense.

Individual ideological variation for prudential or moral reason on a specific issue isn't rare. In my experience people who engage in it may be both better informed and more tolerant of disagreement than average. What about identification of an important political movement would disallow civil discourse?

If one is a man of the left but believes the 2d Am. right is important and worth defending, he finds himself up against a reality that it shouldn't be the NRA's to help him deny.
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Old March 21, 2018, 02:29 PM   #33
thallub
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Read Wayne La Pierre's Our Colleges Are Breeding Grounds For Socialists Who Will Take Our Guns in the April issue of The American Rifleman.

The article is a rant in the style of Alex Jones. IMO: Wayne La Pierre is pandering to the ignorant and uninformed.
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Old March 21, 2018, 02:44 PM   #34
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I wouldn’t discount the spread of socialism throughout the country.
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Old March 21, 2018, 03:02 PM   #35
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thallub
Read Wayne La Pierre's Our Colleges Are Breeding Grounds For Socialists Who Will Take Our Guns in the April issue of The American Rifleman.

The article is a rant in the style of Alex Jones. IMO: Wayne La Pierre is pandering to the ignorant and uninformed.
If you've attended a private liberal arts college in the last couple of decades, you know that the article, while unsubtle and written in broad strokes, is also largely true.

Saying things that fall outside a fairly narrow bandwidth will find objection as "micro-aggression", misogyny, racism, eurocentrism, etc. Incoming students are often routinely indoctrinated in matter of "diversity" and "equity". At the College of Wooster, a senior wrote on Facebook that he liked some "alt-right" youtube videos. There was a sit in to discuss student feelings about it, the senior was removed from campus (four years and well over $200,000 into his undergraduate education) and the college committed to instituting a new "Cultural Competence" class for every incoming freshman.

An officer with the Wooster College Republicans wrote an article in the school paper calling for greater tolerance of varying viewpoints on campus rather than name-calling and threats. I recommended to her that she make common cause with genuinely liberal faculty who also should have an interest in an intellectually tolerant environment. Her extraordinarily sad response? She didn't know any.

As the Berkeley treatment of several speakers last year demonstrated, the problem isn't confined to small private colleges.

Last edited by zukiphile; March 21, 2018 at 03:39 PM.
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Old March 21, 2018, 03:38 PM   #36
thallub
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Quote:
If you've attended a private liberal arts college in the last couple of decades, you know that the article, while unsubtle and written in broad strokes, is also largely true.
La Pierre's article is made up trash.

i began college in 1984 at age 45. Got my bachelors in 1988, my MBA in 1997. i know numerous college professors, many are my friends. Except for some who teach politics, they seldom mention politics in class.

After amassing just over 260 credit hours i encountered two professors who were classical "liberals". One was an undergrad professor of speech. The other was a published professor who taught American government. The man very seldom revealed his personal politics in class.
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Old March 21, 2018, 03:43 PM   #37
rickyrick
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You have got some surprises coming for sure.
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Old March 21, 2018, 03:53 PM   #38
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thallub
La Pierre's article is made up trash.

i began college in 1984 at age 45. Got my bachelors in 1988, my MBA in 1997. i know numerous college professors, many are my friends. Except for some who teach politics, they seldom mention politics in class.

After amassing just over 260 credit hours i encountered two professors who were classical "liberals". One was an undergrad professor of speech. The other was a published professor who taught American government. The man very seldom revealed his personal politics in class.
As impressive as your academic credentials are, it may not be circumspect to dismiss developments of the last couple of decades based on your specific experience before that.
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Old March 21, 2018, 04:36 PM   #39
Evan Thomas
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Since we've drifted into pure politics -- closed. The evils (or otherwise) of socialism are seriously off-topic here.

PS from Glenn - I can't resist. My academic credentials are having been a liberals arts professors at two such colleges from 1977 to 2016, plus teaching at some other state school at night. Wayne's fears are a touch out there, despite the excesses of a small number of students. Sorry, Evan.
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