Rcbs cowboy dies work or not??

acj7382 · June 30, 2018, 05:49 AM

I am using all cast of my own now in 45 colt pistol and rifle. My guns like .454 diameter bullets. My Lee carbide set done great with jacketed but is catching everywhere on the lead bullets. Sizing die is fine. After flaring case mouth seater doesn't scrapes a little brass due to wider mouth and also scrapes lead. Midway has the 45 on sale now and wondering if anyone else having same issues. Only option I see is to buy these or 454 dies. I'm using a 260 grain round flat nose from a Noe mold sized to .454.

BBarn · June 30, 2018, 07:56 AM

Lyman's M expander dies are preferred by many cast bullet reloaders. It was designed specifically for loading cast bullets.

Not sure about the RCBS Cowboy die sets. Interestingly, my RCBS 454 Casull die set seems to have an extra step in the expander die like Lyman's M die. After using dies with the additional step, one wonders why all expanding dies don't have that feature.

Dufus · June 30, 2018, 10:50 AM

To answer the OP's question: the Cowboy Dies do work....at least they do for me. I wouldn't drag a bottle of cast bullets out without them.

acj7382 · June 30, 2018, 11:00 AM

Sounds good to me. I need 4 sets I'm casting for.

**Unclenick** · June 30, 2018, 12:11 PM

The Lyman M patent expired long ago, so a number of folks copy it now. Having the step is a very helpful thing indeed.

T. O'Heir · June 30, 2018, 01:23 PM

Cowboy Dies is a marketing term. The type of bullet or its diameter makes no difference whatsoever. How do you think cast bullets were loaded before the RCBS Marketing Dept. came up with the idiocy that you need special dies or seating plug for cast bullets?
"...a more authentic appearance... period style packaging..." What nonsense. Authentic appearance compared to what? What period? Geezuz! The marketing monkies at Vista Outdoors has out done themselves.
"...catching everywhere on the lead bullets..." Something isn't set up correctly. Millions of cast bullets have been loading using Lee kit for eons.

mehavey · June 30, 2018, 01:40 PM

I shoot nearly all lead -- including the "esoteric" cartridges.
The Cowboy die/expander works for cast purposes very well..

BBarn · June 30, 2018, 02:42 PM

"Cowboy Dies" is more than a marketing term. A close examination of the RCBS and Hornady Cowboy dies shows that they are dimensionally different than their standard dies of the same caliber. RCBS states so in their catalog. And I've compared my standard Hornady 44 Special dies to their 44 Special Cowboy dies. The expander is slightly longer and larger, and the seater/crimper is also slightly larger. This is done so there is less lead shaving with the slightly larger cast bullets often used for better cylinder/bore fit.

I've loaded cast bullets using standard dies. It certainly can be done, but the slightly larger dimensions of the "Cowboy Dies" (and Lyman M dies) makes for less (or no) lead shaving with cast bullets that are slightly larger in diameter than the jacketed ones.

acj7382 · June 30, 2018, 02:59 PM

Bbarn, good to know. The .454 45 colt sizes ok but catches while flaring and seating. Forget the crimp die. Barely goes in. Went to crimping with seater. The .452 standard old 45 size worked fine. My guns like .454. Run that through a Rcbs lube sizer and add a little more to it. I ordered the 45 colt and a 45-70. I want my bullets to look and load well. I read a lot of reviews showing they worked and went here to find out for sure. I don't think it's a marketing hype. As far as colt I don't care if they are purple as long as they work. If not I can return to Midway. My 44 lever shoots .431 but no issues with them so far.

RC20 · June 30, 2018, 05:01 PM

Well as always you have to follow what feels right and that includes this forum

I do use the Lyman M die but to replace the sizing ball that yanks on a rifle case.

Seems like a great too for the original purpose though.

Always did things in steps on pistol so no seat and crimp.

Jakeway · July 1, 2018, 03:41 PM

I just started loading 45 Colt a couple months ago. I bought the 4 die Lee Deluxe set, and the expander die gave me all kinds of problems with sticking cases and hard to get just he right amount of flare. After some research, I bought a Lyman M expander die and all is good now.

In retrospect, I wish I would have bought a Lyman or RCBS Cowboy set, and bought the Lee Factory Crimp Die separately. That crimp die is worth it's weight in valuable metal. It didn't seem to make any difference when I was loading with smokeless powder, but when I started loading with real Black Powder, many of the compressed loads had just enough of a bulge to need the Lee FCD to allow them to chamber.

JRR · July 3, 2018, 10:25 AM

I use the RCBS "steel" sizing die. You have to lube the cases, but it shapes the case to match the tapered chamber of the 45 Colt. Carbide dies can only size straight with no taper. Eliminates the loose rattle you get in most 45 Colt chambers. Improves brass life and accuracy.
Next is the RCBS "Cowboy" inside size and flare die. Properly adjusted, no scraping of lead. The RCBS seating dies usually come with a selection of seater stem shapes. Next is the crimp die. I like the Redding profile crimp die.

**Unclenick** · July 4, 2018, 02:34 PM

And Redding makes their dual ring sizer die (the smaller diameter on top, the larger diameter on the bottom) in 45 Colt. They're not cheap, but do eliminate the over-done straight sizing in standard carbide dies.

Real Gun · July 5, 2018, 03:39 PM

Cowboy dies are .452 instead of .451, so your bullets are still too big, more like 454 Casull. I have loaded .454 bullets with my 45 Colt cowboy set and had no issues except the bullet shape printing through the case. I suppose you might have to separate seating and crimping, but I did OK. I sold the gun (NMBH) that had throats that begged for the larger diameter while having a standard bore. Ruger wasn't interested in helping with a replacement cylinder that had tighter, more standard throats.

The leftover bullets were resized to .452. The .431 same thing, resized to .430. Guns that need something else get sold.

Wendyj · July 6, 2018, 04:58 PM

I got both sets in. The 45 colt and the 45-70. The 45 is doing much better job on the .454 verses the Lee dies. Flaring is perfect. Seating and roll crimp at same time no issue. Still waiting on mold for 45-70 to try it out. I hated the golden rings. Set crews in the way trying to tighten on a turret. Took gold rings off the 45 and put Lee rings on and doing just what they said. I got 2 expander switch the 45-70 so one should work. I'm loading the 45-70 on single stage so gold rings no issue yet. If so I'll swap them out for Lee rings also. In the 45 my bulges are gone. Cycles like butter in the Henry. I've no issues other than the crappy rock rings.

Real Gun · July 6, 2018, 05:31 PM

I am very happy with the RCBS Cowboy brass lock rings but rely on pliers and channel locks to turn the dies when needed, no problem. I turn the die rather than the lock ring, because they are bound together, and the die neck is easier to grab in a tight turret cluster.The Lees are a step down, because they might snug up a die but don't "lock" the setting.

mikld · July 6, 2018, 10:16 PM

I was under the impression the Cowboy dies allowed for seating larger diameter for caliber bullets (like .452"+ bullets for a 45 Colt using cast bullets instead of jacketed bullets of .451") Not a flaring plug but larger ID seating die...

Some of my seating dies are tight around an "oversize" cast bullet...

AL45 · July 6, 2018, 10:36 PM

I've been having the same problems with the Lee expander die. Ordered the Lyman M die today.

Wendyj · July 7, 2018, 03:46 AM

Expander plug has a standard and a larger one. The seating die also has a wider mouth to take larger diameter bullets. The .454 bullet was scraping lead and brass in the Lee dies I was using. I loaded 15 when I got these and no scraping or shaving lead. I can only speak for 45 right now. Waiting on mold I ordered for the 45-70.

Real Gun · July 7, 2018, 09:02 AM

Quote:

milkd - I was under the impression the Cowboy dies allowed for seating larger diameter for caliber bullets (like .452"+ bullets for a 45 Colt using cast bullets instead of jacketed bullets of .451") Not a flaring plug but larger ID seating die...

Some of my seating dies are tight around an "oversize" cast bullet...

I found the sizer and expander to be larger. The seat/crimp is harder to measure, and I am not sure why it could or should be different for the sake of .001, being adjustable.

mikld · July 7, 2018, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wendyj

Expander plug has a standard and a larger one. The seating die also has a wider mouth to take larger diameter bullets. The .454 bullet was scraping lead and brass in the Lee dies I was using. I loaded 15 when I got these and no scraping or shaving lead. I can only speak for 45 right now. Waiting on mold I ordered for the 45-70.

This is what I was thinking too; larger ID seating die...

Real Gun · July 7, 2018, 12:24 PM

Seating should not affect the diameter of the bullet, only the nose, if using a suboptimal seater stem shape. Any other lead perceived as "shaving" would actually be too heavy a crimp while the bullet is still being seated. The shaving I know occurs with not enough flare or without a chamfer on the case mouth. The question though, with die diameter a factor, is at what diameter the die forms and holds the case mouth while crimping the roll desired. That could be larger in a cowboy die, in proportion to the sizer and expander. The end result is a cartridge without the bullet shape printing through the case and without any lead mushrooming around the crimp groove, i.e. it can pass a cartridge gauge, given a trim length that works consistently.

June 30, 2018, 05:49 AM	#1
acj7382 Junior Member Join Date: July 9, 2017 Posts: 13	Rcbs cowboy dies work or not?? I am using all cast of my own now in 45 colt pistol and rifle. My guns like .454 diameter bullets. My Lee carbide set done great with jacketed but is catching everywhere on the lead bullets. Sizing die is fine. After flaring case mouth seater doesn't scrapes a little brass due to wider mouth and also scrapes lead. Midway has the 45 on sale now and wondering if anyone else having same issues. Only option I see is to buy these or 454 dies. I'm using a 260 grain round flat nose from a Noe mold sized to .454.

June 30, 2018, 12:11 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The Lyman M patent expired long ago, so a number of folks copy it now. Having the step is a very helpful thing indeed. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 30, 2018, 01:23 PM	#6
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Cowboy Dies is a marketing term. The type of bullet or its diameter makes no difference whatsoever. How do you think cast bullets were loaded before the RCBS Marketing Dept. came up with the idiocy that you need special dies or seating plug for cast bullets? "...a more authentic appearance... period style packaging..." What nonsense. Authentic appearance compared to what? What period? Geezuz! The marketing monkies at Vista Outdoors has out done themselves. "...catching everywhere on the lead bullets..." Something isn't set up correctly. Millions of cast bullets have been loading using Lee kit for eons. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 30, 2018, 05:01 PM	#10
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Well as always you have to follow what feels right and that includes this forum I do use the Lyman M die but to replace the sizing ball that yanks on a rifle case. Seems like a great too for the original purpose though. Always did things in steps on pistol so no seat and crimp. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

July 4, 2018, 02:34 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	And Redding makes their dual ring sizer die (the smaller diameter on top, the larger diameter on the bottom) in 45 Colt. They're not cheap, but do eliminate the over-done straight sizing in standard carbide dies. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 30, 2018, 07:56 AM	#2
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	Lyman's M expander dies are preferred by many cast bullet reloaders. It was designed specifically for loading cast bullets. Not sure about the RCBS Cowboy die sets. Interestingly, my RCBS 454 Casull die set seems to have an extra step in the expander die like Lyman's M die. After using dies with the additional step, one wonders why all expanding dies don't have that feature.

June 30, 2018, 10:50 AM	#3
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	To answer the OP's question: the Cowboy Dies do work....at least they do for me. I wouldn't drag a bottle of cast bullets out without them.

June 30, 2018, 11:00 AM	#4
acj7382 Junior Member Join Date: July 9, 2017 Posts: 13	Sounds good to me. I need 4 sets I'm casting for.

June 30, 2018, 01:40 PM	#7
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,894	I shoot nearly all lead -- including the "esoteric" cartridges. The Cowboy die/expander works for cast purposes very well..

June 30, 2018, 02:42 PM	#8
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	"Cowboy Dies" is more than a marketing term. A close examination of the RCBS and Hornady Cowboy dies shows that they are dimensionally different than their standard dies of the same caliber. RCBS states so in their catalog. And I've compared my standard Hornady 44 Special dies to their 44 Special Cowboy dies. The expander is slightly longer and larger, and the seater/crimper is also slightly larger. This is done so there is less lead shaving with the slightly larger cast bullets often used for better cylinder/bore fit. I've loaded cast bullets using standard dies. It certainly can be done, but the slightly larger dimensions of the "Cowboy Dies" (and Lyman M dies) makes for less (or no) lead shaving with cast bullets that are slightly larger in diameter than the jacketed ones.

June 30, 2018, 02:59 PM	#9
acj7382 Junior Member Join Date: July 9, 2017 Posts: 13	Bbarn, good to know. The .454 45 colt sizes ok but catches while flaring and seating. Forget the crimp die. Barely goes in. Went to crimping with seater. The .452 standard old 45 size worked fine. My guns like .454. Run that through a Rcbs lube sizer and add a little more to it. I ordered the 45 colt and a 45-70. I want my bullets to look and load well. I read a lot of reviews showing they worked and went here to find out for sure. I don't think it's a marketing hype. As far as colt I don't care if they are purple as long as they work. If not I can return to Midway. My 44 lever shoots .431 but no issues with them so far.

July 1, 2018, 03:41 PM	#11
Jakeway Member Join Date: October 12, 2017 Location: Near Nashville, TN Posts: 62	I just started loading 45 Colt a couple months ago. I bought the 4 die Lee Deluxe set, and the expander die gave me all kinds of problems with sticking cases and hard to get just he right amount of flare. After some research, I bought a Lyman M expander die and all is good now. In retrospect, I wish I would have bought a Lyman or RCBS Cowboy set, and bought the Lee Factory Crimp Die separately. That crimp die is worth it's weight in valuable metal. It didn't seem to make any difference when I was loading with smokeless powder, but when I started loading with real Black Powder, many of the compressed loads had just enough of a bulge to need the Lee FCD to allow them to chamber.

July 3, 2018, 10:25 AM	#12
JRR Member Join Date: January 5, 2001 Location: N. Calif. Posts: 53	I use the RCBS "steel" sizing die. You have to lube the cases, but it shapes the case to match the tapered chamber of the 45 Colt. Carbide dies can only size straight with no taper. Eliminates the loose rattle you get in most 45 Colt chambers. Improves brass life and accuracy. Next is the RCBS "Cowboy" inside size and flare die. Properly adjusted, no scraping of lead. The RCBS seating dies usually come with a selection of seater stem shapes. Next is the crimp die. I like the Redding profile crimp die.

July 5, 2018, 03:39 PM	#14
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	Cowboy dies are .452 instead of .451, so your bullets are still too big, more like 454 Casull. I have loaded .454 bullets with my 45 Colt cowboy set and had no issues except the bullet shape printing through the case. I suppose you might have to separate seating and crimping, but I did OK. I sold the gun (NMBH) that had throats that begged for the larger diameter while having a standard bore. Ruger wasn't interested in helping with a replacement cylinder that had tighter, more standard throats. The leftover bullets were resized to .452. The .431 same thing, resized to .430. Guns that need something else get sold. __________________ Not an expert, just a reporter.

July 6, 2018, 04:58 PM	#15
Wendyj Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: North Georgia Posts: 1,372	I got both sets in. The 45 colt and the 45-70. The 45 is doing much better job on the .454 verses the Lee dies. Flaring is perfect. Seating and roll crimp at same time no issue. Still waiting on mold for 45-70 to try it out. I hated the golden rings. Set crews in the way trying to tighten on a turret. Took gold rings off the 45 and put Lee rings on and doing just what they said. I got 2 expander switch the 45-70 so one should work. I'm loading the 45-70 on single stage so gold rings no issue yet. If so I'll swap them out for Lee rings also. In the 45 my bulges are gone. Cycles like butter in the Henry. I've no issues other than the crappy rock rings. __________________ God is NOT dead!!!!

July 6, 2018, 05:31 PM	#16
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	I am very happy with the RCBS Cowboy brass lock rings but rely on pliers and channel locks to turn the dies when needed, no problem. I turn the die rather than the lock ring, because they are bound together, and the die neck is easier to grab in a tight turret cluster.The Lees are a step down, because they might snug up a die but don't "lock" the setting. __________________ Not an expert, just a reporter. Last edited by Real Gun; July 7, 2018 at 08:58 AM.

July 6, 2018, 10:16 PM	#17
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	I was under the impression the Cowboy dies allowed for seating larger diameter for caliber bullets (like .452"+ bullets for a 45 Colt using cast bullets instead of jacketed bullets of .451") Not a flaring plug but larger ID seating die... Some of my seating dies are tight around an "oversize" cast bullet... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

July 6, 2018, 10:36 PM	#18
AL45 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2012 Posts: 761	I've been having the same problems with the Lee expander die. Ordered the Lyman M die today.

July 7, 2018, 03:46 AM	#19
Wendyj Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: North Georgia Posts: 1,372	Expander plug has a standard and a larger one. The seating die also has a wider mouth to take larger diameter bullets. The .454 bullet was scraping lead and brass in the Lee dies I was using. I loaded 15 when I got these and no scraping or shaving lead. I can only speak for 45 right now. Waiting on mold I ordered for the 45-70. __________________ God is NOT dead!!!!

July 7, 2018, 12:24 PM	#22
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	Seating should not affect the diameter of the bullet, only the nose, if using a suboptimal seater stem shape. Any other lead perceived as "shaving" would actually be too heavy a crimp while the bullet is still being seated. The shaving I know occurs with not enough flare or without a chamfer on the case mouth. The question though, with die diameter a factor, is at what diameter the die forms and holds the case mouth while crimping the roll desired. That could be larger in a cowboy die, in proportion to the sizer and expander. The end result is a cartridge without the bullet shape printing through the case and without any lead mushrooming around the crimp groove, i.e. it can pass a cartridge gauge, given a trim length that works consistently. __________________ Not an expert, just a reporter.