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Old April 24, 2019, 01:22 PM   #51
briandg
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At about 7:00 he addressed the most important issues in the caliber wars.

First, there is not enough velocity and energy to create hydrostatic displacement that is capable of tearing apart a person's liver or arteries with just a close hit. Just like gel, exactly like gel, you get a stretch cavity, and unlike gel, human tissues are fibrous, tough, flexible. Shooting through wet paper isn't going to show a cavity because you couldn't possibly tear all of those fibers. The only thing that a pistol can do is make a person bleed, break bones or nerve conduction. You can sometimes get a hammer sort of effect that will hurt the target badly enough to psychologically disable him from pain, but without a damaging shot, you won't physically disable him.

The massive kinetic energy carried by big guns isn't being used to disable the human target. Just like any other bullet it will break or tear, and tearing and breaking happen pretty much the same with any bullet of sufficient weight, momentum and makeup. A .45 bore size will drill a hole that is almost identical to a .35 bore size. If you make either of them heavier. fooling around with velocity and weight figures to gain some mathematical advantage just for an argument is pointless. If a big bullet gets full penetration, it has done little, maybe no extra physical damage to the human target.

Your goal, as a shooter, is to tear a large bleeding hole through a guy's tissues. something that will tear ragged and oversized holes is perfect. That is why we use hollow points, and especially fluted or petaled bullets.It doesn't matter how you get that 1" wide ragged hole through a guy's abdomen, it's going to do about the same thing whether it's a stick or a bullet. It's going to make a hole.

At about 7:00 he makes the very best point ever. It doesn't matter how much energy you are sending into a person and the gel testing proves it. What good is a temporary cavity? All that does is waste energy doing ineffective things. It's useful in that it can bruise a bit, maybe tear up some delicate tissues, and possibly cause more pain, but a temporary cavity the size of a volleyball simply represents a lot of gel being thrown around.

The FBI did everyone a favor by settling on a standard testing and design standard. We have gel, and that gives you a reasonable facsimile of the density of tissues. We can now fire a bullet into this gel and you will know what it can do. You will know that penetration and permanent wound cavity are similar enough to human tissues that it will be a good benchmark.

But that said, gel isn't people, and all you will get is an estimation. It's going to be different for every shot. Shooting through a 6" layer of brisket fat before even reaching the actual meat isn't accurate.


If a 9mm round can get identical penetration and damage path of a .40 then there's no reason to use a .40

I keep harping on the attempted suicide that happened in newton county near here. A boy shot himself through the heart with a super blackhawk in .44 magnum. They repaired the damage to his heart, sewed him up and he survived.

There is a point of diminishing returns on everything. Since a gunfight is chaotic and unpredictable, maybe even involving armored assailants, maybe heavier rounds are called for. For most situations, you can carry a reasonable caliber in a premium round and expect that you will accomplish the goal, a deep ragged hole in a human body, maybe broken bones or damaged organs or arteries.
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Old April 24, 2019, 02:56 PM   #52
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Since a gunfight is chaotic and unpredictable, maybe even involving armored assailants, maybe heavier rounds are called for.
But the premise that supports this rests on a belief that, somehow, your skills are of such a level that multiple armed, armored, determined, and competent attackers can be overcome. There is a point that it is HIGHLY unlikely any of us possess the skill set needed to overcome the situation regardless of equipment. But hey, buying new equipment is fun so lets buy new equipment. Sometimes one has to accept that they are going to struggle if such a battle were to occur, ultimately fall, meet fate as gloriously as one can, and await the Valkyries
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Old April 24, 2019, 04:26 PM   #53
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This scenario of multiple attackers,competent,armored,and well armed...

Seems like a bit of a reach if we are talking about civilian self defense handguns.
You are describing (generally ) confronting a SWAT team.

That generally ,IMO,should be a discussion of making better life choices,not which cartridge to use.
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Old April 24, 2019, 04:28 PM   #54
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It's just that some folks like to use calculated ME for a way to support their favorite confirmation bias when it comes to calibers.
They do in fact. And I have been saying for a very long time that there is more to "wounding capacity" than simple ME (I assume you mean muzzle k/e). I said it earlier with .223 v 45/70, but 44 AMP gave an exact k/e equivalent with .22-250 v 45-70 whereas my example was but a close approximation.

At any rate, there are several factors that come into play as to how effective a bullet will be on target. Bullet construction (as in will it expand), sectional density (barely worth noting in common pistol calibers in regards to SD, but we'll throw it out there), momentum (I know a lot of folks don't like to acknowledge this but it matters to at least some degree), and kinetic energy (we all know this).

Then there are the platform characteristics. Many have made much ado about faster follow-up shots, however a shot timer does not bear out that a full size 9mm pistol is really much faster for follow-up shots than a full-size .40 or .45. I believe my old stats I compiled was 13 rounds of 9mm to 11 rounds of .45. Which will do more damage? Will the extra frontal area and momentum of .45 make up for the 2 fewer rounds? Are two extra rounds of 9mm, despite possibly being not quite as effective by ever so slight a degree, better? The answer: I dunno, I don't think it could ever be measured, and I don't think there would be a statistically relevant difference.

Capacity is where the big boys really lose their advantage IMO. Especially when comparing the almighty American Pie .45acp to 9mm. Also, I believe the follow up shot logic works much better in favor of smaller rounds when comparing CC pistols like the shield.
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Old April 24, 2019, 04:36 PM   #55
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5whiskey..you make a good case.

I'm reconsidering...I may well go 9 mm
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Old April 24, 2019, 05:23 PM   #56
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I have no problems in controlling my 9s or 45s. I can hit reliably with all of them.

When I took my CCW course back in 1995 the instructor (during the live fire part of the course) made comment of the sort: "damn, you are the only one shooting groups today". I was using my first Colt Government Model Series 70 45 ACP at that time.

I had no misses at the silhouette targets, so I passed the course.

My Dad was shooting his Colt 380 1908 and he had no misses.

We used to shoot together quite a lot. It pays to practice.
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Old April 24, 2019, 08:45 PM   #57
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I keep harping on the attempted suicide that happened in newton county near here. A boy shot himself through the heart with a super blackhawk in .44 magnum. They repaired the damage to his heart, sewed him up and he survived.
What bullet was used? Bullet construction is just as important as caliber and velocity.
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Old April 24, 2019, 11:58 PM   #58
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What bullet was used?
Yeah,sure,by golly,I can just imagine the article ,news cast,or interview!

Probably only the owner of the Ruger would know.

(Reporter sticks mic in the boy's Father's face)
" So hey,Bud,what load was you using in that 44? ?? H110 and a 240,huh?

Was it one of those scalloped Rem Soft points,or a Gold Dot? Oh,a Laser cast? A Keith? Yeah,uh huh....What charge weigh? Brass? Primer? LOA? Just for my notes.....

So you recon that hard bullet allowed a pericardial tamponade??

Yes,well,now a message from our sponsor......

What bullet did the boy use? Seriously?
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Old April 25, 2019, 07:04 AM   #59
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Yeah,sure,by golly,I can just imagine the article ,news cast,or interview!

Probably only the owner of the Ruger would know.

(Reporter sticks mic in the boy's Father's face)
" So hey,Bud,what load was you using in that 44? ?? H110 and a 240,huh?

Was it one of those scalloped Rem Soft points,or a Gold Dot? Oh,a Laser cast? A Keith? Yeah,uh huh....What charge weigh? Brass? Primer? LOA? Just for my notes.....

So you recon that hard bullet allowed a pericardial tamponade??

Yes,well,now a message from our sponsor......

What bullet did the boy use? Seriously?
Seriously? Why the snarky reply? I asked a serious question. If you are going to tout a caliber as a failure you should at least have some facts. By your response I seriously doubt any of your story. It could have been a Heritage Rough Rider.
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Old April 25, 2019, 07:50 AM   #60
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It was briandg's story,post 52


I did not say any cartridge was a failure.


If a kid attempted suicide with ,as described,a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 mag,

How would anyone know what bullet was used?

And in the context of the discussion...IMO,briandg did not offer it as a detailed case study,just an example that regardless cartridge,the results of a GSW are unpredictable.The kid may have died had he used a .22.Or a 9mm hardball.

I'm grateful he lived.

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Old April 25, 2019, 08:01 AM   #61
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Capacity is where the big boys really lose their advantage IMO. Especially when comparing the almighty American Pie .45acp to 9mm. Also, I believe the follow up shot logic works much better in favor of smaller rounds when comparing CC pistols like the shield.
The followup shot logic would seem to work in favor of smaller calibers when comparing CC pistols, but then again, how do you know you are getting more than one shot? You don't know that until the time of the fight.
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Old April 25, 2019, 10:12 AM   #62
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What are the chances that the average carrier is in a situation where the effectiveness of the caliber is the "make or break" factor?
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Old April 25, 2019, 10:31 AM   #63
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That would be a good question for the folks that feel there are minimal standards for carry. I don't know. What is the chance you will need more than 5 rounds? 6 rounds? 7 rounds?

People often assume (based on posts that I have seen) that because they have more capacity that they will be able to utilize that capacity when the time comes, be it with a high cap .22 lr or double stack 9mm.

In the grand scheme, it is nothing more than mental exercises until a real situation develops. Nobody can say which is going to be the best choice for their fight until after the fight is over. Then it is too late.
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Old April 25, 2019, 11:21 AM   #64
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nanuk, hibc, this was many years ago, not last year when you could put your hands on a hydro boomer golden dragon tooth ultra whammy round.

It is probable that all those years ago, the round was simply factory lead. The .44 was still at the time a rather uncommon critter and a novelty. hunting rounds that were available were almost certainly Remington scalloped HP rounds and maybe even double the price of lead.

So, my guess at the time was that it would have been factory lead.

Now, there is another part to that question. Would it have made any difference? A teenager who shot himself in the chest would have had little heavy meat there to allow the bullet to expand. I was always thinking that the round probably went through without anything but a little deformation.

It is my belief based on many things that the .44 magnum and .45 acp would have done almost identical damage to the heart.

The hard lead SWC round would have made a slightly more damaging wound, but it was in fact, only .429 rather than .454 and the wound would have been smaller. A .45 acp ball ammo round was almost all that existed in the real world back then. It would have whizzed right through the kid.

Velocity really doesn't matter when you are driving a heavy lump of lead at approximately 900-1,100 fps, the guy who worked for federal made that point quite well, as well as many of our members. Until the expansion and explosive force causes destruction of secondary tissues, all you have is a hole.

He got really lucky that he managed to avoid the coronary arteries, that the wound in the heart closed itself off, that his heart continued to beat and was able to push blood through until he managed to be stabilized and moved to a proper surgical center. If he had stuck a .308 or even a 12 gauge against his heart and pulled the trigger, it would not have been remotely similar

The one thing to consider most carefully is that the heart iteslf is a big plastic reservoir of blood, and 90 times a minute, that big bottle of blood is given a squeeze that will cause leakage. It can be taken for granted that without medical treatment the guy would have bled out rapidly. Those holes wouldn't have healed themselves.

The most important point that I must make to be fair about the whole post.

There was one follow up on the news story. He survived several days and was still critical. God knows what his condition was a year later or whether he even survive a month.

We have had our share of weird shootings here. An old man killed his wife and shot himself because they both had terminal health problems. he put the muzzle on his forehead and sent a round right between the left and right hemispheres. Oh, yes, he was up and walking when the paramedics arrived and he had called them himself. His recovery was uneventful and according to later reports charges had not been decided on. So, an old guy who may have used his war relic .38 with round nose ammo survived a contact wound to the head. He might have survived any pistol round.
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Old April 25, 2019, 11:28 AM   #65
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The most important thing to understand about all of this is that every time a trigger is pulled and it strikes a living being, it is a unique event and the effects are going to vary wildly.

Some things can be assumed and expected (mostly). Bullets are designed to function well and will do what we expect them to do in normal human tissues pretty reliably.

Then you will have a kid drop a bear round through his heart and live through it, while elsewhere in the nation a person will put a squirrel round into a bear and make it fall down.
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Old April 25, 2019, 11:45 AM   #66
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What are the chances that the average carrier is in a situation where the effectiveness of the caliber is the "make or break" factor?
IMO, the 9mm is a "minimum standard." I believe that a person should carry a 9mm in anything but a very small gun. I include the .38 as equal to the 9mm.

In pocket or other extremely small guns, a .380 with modern ammo is acceptable. You will still get a serious wound that can kill or quickly disable. quickly disabling your opponent is your goal.

If I understand correctly, what are the chances that moving up to a .40 and retiring the 9mm will save the shooter from injury or death? Slim. Very slim.

Take all of those jello blocks and look at them after the tests. What do they all have in common? they have holes in them. Most of those holes will be less than an inch wide. Most of them will be deep enough that the bullet would have had every chance to destroy important tissues.

If you shoot a man you will make a hole in him. You may also scare him and hurt him, and maybe make him go numb, limp, or shock him into momentary catatonia. The hole is what counts, and IMO, there isn't enough difference between a 9 mm hole and a 10 mm hole to hasten the disabling effect of a gunshot significantly. moving up a round may cause a person to become disabled more rapidly, but by what? one second, more or less?

No matter what sort of hit you make, bullets that perform similarly won't cause significantly different injuries when compared.

There's a lot of science behind that.
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Old April 25, 2019, 12:06 PM   #67
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Just a few more points to consider....

You can find examples of where everything has worked, and examples where everything has failed. From the .22 short to the .50BMG.

If you "keep going back" to the kid who shot himself in the heart, didn't die, and consider it a caliber failure, you are fixating on the wrong thing.

How about the guy who shot himself in the head with a .44 Magnum BLANK, and died??

How about the 9mm in the Miami shootout, that passed every test, met or exceeded every requirement, worked in numerous other shootings, but "failed" (according to the FBI after action critique) in that ONE real world situation??

How about we stop using the logic train that goes "Snow White ate a poison apple, therefore all apples are poisonous, therefore no one should eat an apple, ever!"

If there is a failure to stop, its NEVER the caliber that fails. it's the SHOT. And the shooter.

Firepower matters, in an infantry assault...Round capacity matters, if you miss. And we all miss, sometimes. Sometimes its not our fault, sometimes, it is.

If you shoot the way TV teaches you, you'll need a lot of ammo! Action heroes shoot tons of ammo, provide their own cover fire, and almost never run out. They MAY be seen to reload their guns, but they never seem to run out of ammo...and, they tend to fire in "bursts", usually double or triples, when using semis.. and they never have hearing trouble shooting without protection, either...but that's TV...

And while it is TV/Movies, and we "know" its not real, it also IS a level of training. Below conscious level, but still a degree of training. BAD training, but still training. It's what people are likely to do, if they haven't been taught differently. And when they aren't able to take the time to think about it in advance of doing it.

You, or I, or the next guy might not need every round in the gun. Someone else, might. And another someone will use them all, need or not...

there are cases of guys doing tap, rack, bang failure drills thinking their gun jammed, when in fact they had shot to slide lock empty without realizing it.

Every shooting is different in many different ways, and the only real thing in common to all is that someone got shot.
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Old April 25, 2019, 12:25 PM   #68
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I use the example of the kid because it is so counterintuitive to many people. A person surviving a shot to the heart by the gun that will "blow your head clean off" isn't normal, right? I'm not considering it to be a caliber failure, really, I am using it to demonstrate that guns of certain calibers will often fail to live up to expectations.

The story of phineas gauge who took a steel rod through the brain and survived a hellish treatment is amazing. Again, everyone knows that a guy can't have a filthy, rusty, .32mm caliber iron rod blasted through the left side of his brain and survive, right? That thing failed to live up to my expectations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

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Every shooting is different in many different ways, and the only real thing in common to all is that someone got shot.
That sums everything up. You can't have expectations of anything beyond vague hopes when you pull the trigger.
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Old April 25, 2019, 12:54 PM   #69
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https://www.odmp.org/officer/420-tro...-hunter-coates

It's a 2 minute read but I'll give you the highlights...

Quote:
Corporal Coates was able to force the man off of him and return fire, striking the him five times in the chest with his .357 caliber revolver. As he retreated for cover and to radio for backup, the man fired another shot. The round struck Trooper Coates in the left armpit and traveled into his heart.

The man survived the incident and was sentenced to life in prison.
I've seen the dash cam video in training and it's probably the saddest thing I've ever seen. Trooper Coates' killer lived after 5 COM hits with .357 mag, yet Trooper Coates was killed by an errant .22 round that bounced off his shoulder blade into his heart. This pretty much supports the following...

Quote:
I'm not considering it to be a caliber failure, really, I am using it to demonstrate that guns of certain calibers will often fail to live up to expectations.
Quote:
You can find examples of where everything has worked, and examples where everything has failed. From the .22 short to the .50BMG.
Quote:
The most important thing to understand about all of this is that every time a trigger is pulled and it strikes a living being, it is a unique event and the effects are going to vary wildly.
With all of this in mind, I go back to the old debate made before Kahr, Ruger, S&W, and Sig came out with some of these easily concealable micro 9s. A seecamp in .32acp used to be a preferred CCW piece by many before the LCP came out because it was about the most serious caliber that could be pocket carried. Many ridiculed the "pea shooter rounds," while many stated a gun on hand is worth an arsenal in the truck. I tend to side with the later. Pick your poison, train with it, and a 32acp isn't anything to sneeze at. But I still like .45 bullets, and arguing that bigger bullets are no better is asinine... but so is arguing that smaller bullets will bounce off someone
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Old April 25, 2019, 01:02 PM   #70
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What are the chances that the average carrier is in a situation where the effectiveness of the caliber is the "make or break" factor?
Were I to make a scientific wild ass guess, I would say no more than 1/100,000

Quote:
In the grand scheme, it is nothing more than mental exercises until a real situation develops. Nobody can say which is going to be the best choice for their fight until after the fight is over. Then it is too late.
Precisely. And I also agree with your points on over-touting capacity. I'm law enforcement so capacity means more to me... although to be fair most OIS end with just a few rounds.
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Old April 25, 2019, 02:01 PM   #71
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It is probable that all those years ago, the round was simply factory lead. The .44 was still at the time a rather uncommon critter and a novelty. hunting rounds that were available were almost certainly Remington scalloped HP rounds and maybe even double the price of lead.

So, my guess at the time was that it would have been factory lead.

Now, there is another part to that question. Would it have made any difference? A teenager who shot himself in the chest would have had little heavy meat there to allow the bullet to expand. I was always thinking that the round probably went through without anything but a little deformation.

It is my belief based on many things that the .44 magnum and .45 acp would have done almost identical damage to the heart.

The hard lead SWC round would have made a slightly more damaging wound, but it was in fact, only .429 rather than .454 and the wound would have been smaller. A .45 acp ball ammo round was almost all that existed in the real world back then. It would have whizzed right through the kid.

Velocity really doesn't matter when you are driving a heavy lump of lead at approximately 900-1,100 fps, the guy who worked for federal made that point quite well, as well as many of our members. Until the expansion and explosive force causes destruction of secondary tissues, all you have is a hole.
I have seen a few suicides and more than my share of shootings. Bullet construction is critical.

Say for the sake of argument that the bullet in question was a 240 grain LSWC. We know what it is going to do just about every time regardless of velocity. I carried a 44 magnum for a number of years and so did some other cops I knew. Loaded with a 180 grain JHP constructed with a light jacket like Remington uses traveling @ 1400-1500 fps it acts like a grenade when it hits, 30 to 40 grains of the bullet turning into fragments. That makes a devastating wound.

The same phenomenon happens with the 357 Magnum. The Border Patrol for a number of years issued Remington 110 grain 357 magnum ammo. The light jacket caused them to violently fragment, I saw a couple shootings with those, it creats a devastating wound. My US Marshal buddy related that he liked the 110 grain Federal 357 magnum as it penetrated deep in big game as well as BG's. Stacy Lim of the LAPD was shot with a 110 grain 357 magnum, lucky for her it was a Federal or Winchester bullet (I forget which one) and not a Remington bullet.

You see the same thing with the 9mm +P+, especially with old school loads such as the 9BPLE.

A friend of mine shot a car jacker thru the heart with a 45 ACP 230 grain +P Gold Dot. It blew a 3/4" hold thru the BG's heart. Similar bullets at similar velocities create similar wounds. Start changing those variables and you start changing the outcomes.

That is why, to me bullet construction is critical when discussing terminal ballistics. So when someone says this or that caliber failed with no more information than that and I usually dismiss it as there is not enough information to draw any conclusions.
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Old April 25, 2019, 03:02 PM   #72
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How good is that data at what round was used and what round was responsible for stopping the person it was fired at? How good is that data at separating psychological stops from physiological stops.
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Old April 25, 2019, 04:49 PM   #73
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How good is that data at what round was used and what round was responsible for stopping the person it was fired at? How good is that data at separating psychological stops from physiological stops.
There is no such data set, much less one that discerns psychological stops from bullets that actually hit versus psychological stops from bullets that missed, or a bullet that hits or misses one bad guy but psycholoigically stops all of the bad guys (2 or more), LOL.
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Old April 25, 2019, 05:12 PM   #74
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Many ridiculed the "pea shooter rounds," while many stated a gun on hand is worth an arsenal in the truck. I tend to side with the later.
I am one of those. But I have carried a fullsize pistol or revolver for about 40 years.
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Old April 25, 2019, 07:20 PM   #75
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Until the expansion and explosive force causes destruction of secondary tissues, all you have is a hole.
And if the hole is in the right spot, it generally works the way we expect. If not, it doesn't.

If you've done enough hunting, you learn that a heart shot animal may drop DRT, OR it may not. And there's no accurate predictor which it will be.

Heart shot human? Usually dies, usually before medical care arrives, or during initial treatment, or on the way to the OR...but, if they don't, if the stars have lined up so that they don't die before the Docs can patch the holes, they can survive. Uncommon, ALMOST unheard of, but not impossible.
I knew a guy who was shot in the heart at age 17. HE died...at 73, from a stroke, the bullet still lodged in his heart. The bullet didn't kill him, and the docs were worried that trying to remove it, might, so they just left it alone.

Uncommon, but not impossible.
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