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Old April 17, 2016, 01:34 AM   #1
JohnKSa
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Weaver vs. Isosceles...

Most folks know that Cooper popularized the stance that Weaver began using in the 1950s.

In the May 2016 issue of The Blue Press, there's an article by Duane Thomas. In it, he makes an interesting observation. He found a 1962 picture of Elden Carl who participated in the same competitions which ultimately made the Weaver stance famous. Carl won the competition in that year and the picture commemorates his win.

The picture is interesting because Carl is using the "Modern Isosceles" stance, complete with the straight thumbs forward grip almost 20 years before Brian Enos and Robbie Leatham developed and popularized the MI and thumbs forward grip.

If Cooper had been less impressed with Weaver and more impressed with Carl, the evolution of modern pistol technique might have taken a 2 decade shortcut...
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Old April 17, 2016, 07:28 AM   #2
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I am reading a book, The Modern Day Gunslinger by Don Mann, copyright 2010, that favors the modified isosceles stance as the most natural to assume when faced with an attack. He claims the Weaver etc. while good stances are not close to how the body will initially react to a threat, so he favors the isosceles stance.
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Old April 17, 2016, 08:15 AM   #3
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Now, that's verry interesting.
At first glance it seemed this thread was going to be yet another rehash of isosceles vs weaver.
Gotta' go download the Blue Press and read that.
Thanks for the tip.
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Old April 17, 2016, 08:51 AM   #4
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I was taught the Weaver, and I have shot the Weaver all my life. It would be a little difficult to change now.
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Old April 17, 2016, 09:29 AM   #5
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^^^
Naw, same here, with the thumbs up yet.
Where there's a will......
No need to abandon the Weaver, just add the Isosceles.
Like still keeping the one handed bladed stance, too.
It's all useful.
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Old April 17, 2016, 09:31 AM   #6
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I was taught to take advantage of cover...remain calm....center of mass.....
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Old April 17, 2016, 10:55 AM   #7
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Well, I started with Cooper back in 1967. The dropped elbow was the thing back then, however I always remember thumbs being forward, especially because all you had was a 1911. Though everyone today use's the triangle stance in competition, especially for longer shots, lots of guys will drop one or both elbows when shooting close, what we call loose. Cooper didn't get there overnight either, he was stubborn.

"For three years I tried to catch Jack (Weaver) in diversified competition, but it was not until I adopted his system that I was able to catch him. Both Jack and I might be considered exceptions, but I think not. Jack had the better mouse trap, and John Plähn showed us how to use it."
Jeff Cooper, Commentaries,

Remember Leatham was born in 1961, 41 years after Col Cooper, so he wasn't really shooting until the early 80s.

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Old April 17, 2016, 12:33 PM   #8
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Modified Weaver aka Chapman Stance

"Modified Weaver a.k.a. Chapman Stance --- It uses the same push-pull tension of the Weaver stance, but instead of bending both arms at the elbows, the Chapman stance holds the dominant arm in a straight position and locks the elbow. The support hand elbow is bent and provides the tension.

Ray Chapman used this stance to win the SWCPL championship in 1964, 1967, and 1970 and also won the first IPSC World Shoot in 1975.

The advantage of this stance over the Weaver stance is that it gets its stability from both muscle and skeletal support and is more suitable for people who lack upper-body strength."

http://www.firearmshistory.blogspot....s-chapman.html
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Old April 17, 2016, 01:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Remember Leatham was born in 1961, 41 years after Col Cooper, so he wasn't really shooting until the early 80s.
That's correct, but I guess I don't understand your point.

I said that "The picture is interesting because Carl is using the "Modern Isosceles" stance, complete with the straight thumbs forward grip almost 20 years before Brian Enos and Robbie Leatham developed and popularized the MI and thumbs forward grip."

The point of my post was that Elden Carl is shown in a picture taken in 1962 using a shooting stance that is identical to the Modern Isosceles stance, complete with a straight thumbs forward grip.

Two decades years BEFORE Leatham and Enos developed/popularized that stance and grip.
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Old April 17, 2016, 01:24 PM   #10
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Enos and Leatham didn't develop it, they just used it. Allot of us did, we didn't know there was any faster way. Elden was most likely the very first to do well with it, long before IPSC. He also understood movement.

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Old April 17, 2016, 01:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Enos and Leatham didn't develop it, they just used it.
I think that Leatham and Enos would say that they didn't actually invent it, they just experimented with/combined various techniques and then their success ended up popularizing what worked for them. Clearly it was around before those two--that's the whole point of this thread.

The point being, of course, that they are generally given credit for developing and popularizing it because no one else had popularized it before that point.

Which is the main point of my initial post--if Cooper had focused on Elden Carl instead of Weaver, the MI and thumbs forward technique would have likely been popularized 20 years earlier than it was.
Quote:
Allot of us did, we didn't know there was any faster way...
MI rules the speed shooting world these days. What faster way are you talking about?
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Old April 17, 2016, 02:58 PM   #12
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i'm not sure what you'd call my stance when i'm shooting. i've never taken a formalized 'how to shoot a pistol' class. self taught here.

i guess the value of taking such a class and adopting a stance is that you get the benefit of skipping errors others have made and discovered, and moving right to a technique that has proven successful for many others.
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Old April 17, 2016, 04:14 PM   #13
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I would think if you've been around long enough, you've probably tried them all as they became popular, and (in some cases) faded, depending what worked well for you.

Truth be told, unless you only shoot standing still, your stance is likely morphing in and out as you move and shoot, and you dont even think about it.

I would think if you just limit yourself to one, youre doing just that, limiting yourself.
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Old April 17, 2016, 05:49 PM   #14
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The Blue Press for May 2016 can be found here: https://www.dillonprecision.com/docs..._Issue_Web.pdf

I found the article on the Weaver stance interesting. Weaver said if "felt good". Elden Carl won early Leatherslaps shooting one handed. The distance between target and shooter was only seven yards, so I can see how a good, one handed shooter, could get the first shots off faster than a two hander. And, at that distance, the accuracy increase you get from a two handed hold would be traded off for increased speed.

Notice how those guys are well dressed, wearing ties and creases in their pants?
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Old April 17, 2016, 06:00 PM   #15
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AK103K - exactly, if you are shooting something like IDPA, where you are constantly either moving, or leaning around barriers, your stance is constantly changing, so you need to be worried about where your legs and feet are, and mostly worry about your sight picture so you can shoot the target accurately and quickly. no time to pause and analyze your position.
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Old April 17, 2016, 08:39 PM   #16
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The Weaver Stance is almost identical to a proper archer's stance as they draw a bow. This is probably why I'm more comfortable with the Weaver Stance.
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Old April 18, 2016, 08:16 AM   #17
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^^^^
You must be a left handed archer?
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Old April 18, 2016, 06:55 PM   #18
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Kind of hard to use either stance when moving to, and firing from behind cover.
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Old April 18, 2016, 09:07 PM   #19
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g.willikers, the left arm in the Weaver Stance is held in, almost exactly, the same position as a right-handed archer's left arm as they hold a bow. The angle of the shoulders and feet are pretty much the same, also. If the right hand is brought up to meet the left, instead of drawing the string, you get the Weaver Stance.
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Old April 20, 2016, 07:06 AM   #20
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Since much of this thread has pertained to the histories of these various shooting stances, I thought I would note that W.E. Fairbairn clearly advocated thumbs forward gripping for combat shooting 3 decades before anyone else mentioned on this thread. He also seemed to advocate a stance resembling Chapman's for long distance, i.e. over ten yards, shooting.
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Old May 13, 2016, 05:38 AM   #21
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Shooting stances

I started shooting with a modified Weaver/Chapman stance back in about 1978.

The last few years I have been trying to convert to a modern Isoceles stance with the thumbs forward grip. All the cops I train these days were trained that way and to properly instruct or coach them I need to be able to shoot that way better.

The old dog can learn new tricks, but it's coming slowly. I still have to think about it sometimes. 35+ years of programming is hard to rewrite.
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Old May 13, 2016, 08:40 AM   #22
4V50 Gary
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While similar, the archer's stance is more perpendicular to the target than the Weaver. Weaver as I was taught is slightly bladed. One thing about archery is that you learn to address the target. This is something I tried to teach the kids (with mixed results) at Whittington Center's Adventure Camp. Their archery instructor was very, very good and if i had a kid, I'd want him to be his/her coach. He works full time at the range in Lost Wages.

BTW, I teach both Weaver and Isoceles. Each has its valid points and application.
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Old May 13, 2016, 09:37 PM   #23
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A lot of us older guys learned the Weaver first. I use both.....but have learned to be more versatile with the Isosceles.
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Old May 13, 2016, 11:20 PM   #24
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Quote:
Weaver vs. Isosceles...
Both, and add the Modified Weaver (Chapman.)

Read Massad Ayoob and you will see why one can learn and use all three.

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Old May 14, 2016, 06:43 AM   #25
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That's right ! Test a bunch and pick what's best for you !
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