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March 11, 2015, 12:59 PM | #26 | |
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Though I've been practicing and see some improvement I'm still a new shooter and would likely be one of those that shoots much better with the primary. Another questions for all - how much of a difference will caliber make, if any? When I started shooting several months ago I made the decision that, should I ever have too shoot in self-defense, I wanted the caliber with stopping power - I chose 45 caliber. Is there a noticeable difference between say shooting my concealed gun, a Kahr CM 45, versus a concealed 9mm? At the end of the day I realize I'm a newbie and just need more range time and maybe more instruction. The good part is that I like shooting and as timer permits improvement will come |
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March 11, 2015, 01:19 PM | #27 |
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I can shoot my carry guns just as accurately, but that's because my carry guns are usually compact or full size pistols.
However, I've never been willing to carry anything smaller than a Glock 26, which I feel is about as small as you can get and still have a accurate, capable 'fighting pistol'. With my build, I can conceal larger guns effectively even in t-shirts, so why should I carry something much smaller and less accurate for me? |
March 13, 2015, 04:41 AM | #28 |
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As you never know when your gun fight will arrive, if ever, some basics need to be followed, enhance your shooting skills, is #1. Two hands, and both single.
An extra magazine, a good flashlight, on your belt, behind your spare mag. Carry enough gun (capacity) and calibre. 9mm is better, you lose nothing in lethality, with 9/40/45, with modern ammunition. But you gain in capacity, and rapidity of follow up shots, with for instance my CCW a Glock 19. Carry the same gun, in the same place, always, do not change your pistol like you change your socks. |
March 13, 2015, 06:52 AM | #29 | |
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March 13, 2015, 08:04 AM | #30 | |
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Do you have anything besides your opinion to justify your statement? All of the studies that I've seen that are backed by actual research and fact conclude that bigger holes are better than smaller holes and more holes are better than less holes. |
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March 13, 2015, 09:32 AM | #31 | |||||
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Posted by Brit:
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Posted by 45_auto: Quote:
And/or--they remember the legend of the .45 in the Philippines. I had always thought the .45 to be superior, so I bout one. Now a carry a 9MM. I am not alone. Quote:
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March 13, 2015, 09:54 AM | #32 |
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45 Auto,
The FBI going back to the 9mm cartridge says something, they have lots of research money to do just that, research. |
March 13, 2015, 11:37 AM | #33 |
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<Moderator Hat On>
Caliber debates fall outside the Tactics & Training subject area, so ... Please take the caliber wars down to the handgun discussion forums. I'm sure the mods in those forums will thank us for it. Those guys love that stuff. </Moderator Hat> pax |
March 13, 2015, 07:01 PM | #34 | |
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Obviously I can't shoot my LCR as well as my 6" GP 100, but I shoot the little guns really well.
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March 13, 2015, 08:35 PM | #35 |
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I've used my "carry pistol" to shoot 3 coyotes, 4-5 groundhogs, 5-6 skunks, and 3-4 coons at ranges from 10-40 yards. There's no question in my mind as to whether I can put my bullets on a target @10-25'.
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March 13, 2015, 09:05 PM | #36 |
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My carry gun right now is a S&W Shield, and while I don't shoot it as well as my full size handguns it is perfectly acceptable for combat accuracy. I will be switching out the trigger soon though, my Shield came with the Massachusetts compliant trigger, and it is hands down the heaviest trigger I have ever felt on any gun. While I shoot the Shield pretty well, I know that I could shoot it a whole lot better once I replace that trigger.
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March 13, 2015, 11:40 PM | #37 |
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When I got my CPL three years ago I had in my mind 1 minute-of-angle (moa) precision as a goal from my rifle shooting days. Needless to say, I was greatly disappointed with my initial results with centerfire pistols. I turned to the internet to find various precision benchmarks to better assess my performance. Here are some I've found standardized to moa, from high precision to lower:
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March 14, 2015, 02:31 PM | #38 |
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For Concealed Carry...
The trick is to balance speed and precision.
After one has learned the basics, it is important to consider what effective defensive shooting will likely entail. Rather than shooting at a stationary two-dimensional target marked with the important target areas, the defender is likely to be faced with a large, rapidly moving, three dimensional target that is not facing him or her. But--inside that target, where they cannot be seen, are the several real targets---small targets--the vital parts of the anatomy that must be damaged to effect anything other than a psychological stop. Even if the scene were to unfold in "slow motion", the defender would have a tough time deciding where to shoot the attacker to do that damage. And the scene will not develop slowly. The targets are small, hidden, and moving. Hitting the vital internal parts will likely be a matter of luck. That means that the defender will have to hit with multiple shots in very rapid succession. Personally, I think that getting three or four shots into an area the size of the top of a standard full length tissue box in one second at three to five yards is very good indeed. Well, I cannot do any better, anyway. |
March 14, 2015, 02:46 PM | #39 |
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good summary Limnophile.
my rule of thumb is if my shots can be covered by my hand, i'm doing ok. but the zero down in a IDPA target is perfectly acceptable, both for competition, and for practical use. part two: use good ammo that has passed the FBI tests. |
March 14, 2015, 03:02 PM | #40 | ||
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Posted by 1-DAB:
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But--it is a probably a good generalization tp say that at least one dimension of each of the vital parts of the anatomy is about the size of a closed fist. The problems are (1) that are moving and (2) that one cannot see where they are within the attacker's body. In self defense, one is not shooting at a stationary two dimensional target with marked scoring areas. Equally importantly, one is not shooting at a homogenous target such as a water jug, on which every hit counts. What that means is that one must elect to shoot several shots very quickly. Quote:
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March 14, 2015, 06:15 PM | #41 | |
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A lot of people hear a comment like the one quoted above and get the idea that there's no benefit to being able to produce hand-sized groups at 3 yards and so they're satisfied with groups at that distance that can't be covered with a dinner plate. If they are ever required to shoot at longer distances, they may not be able to score solid hits. For example, a person who can shoot properly sized self-defense groups at 25 yards would need to have the ability to shoot one hole groups at 3 yards. In a self-defense situation, one wants to be able to rely on a skill level that automatically assesses the range and selects a rate of fire that is appropriate to the distance involved. It's just as counter-productive to shoot very slowly at 3 yards--making solid hits but giving the attacker the opportunity to fire multiple shots to every one of yours--as it is to blast away at a high rate of fire at 25 yards and never connect.
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March 14, 2015, 06:45 PM | #42 | ||
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Posted by JohnKSa:
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However, when one considers the odds, one should probably spend most of his or her time practicing firing rapidly with less precision at distances of three to five yards. It is that judgment that leads us to conclude that a compact pistol with a short sight radius and a long trigger pull will suffice very well most of the time. If I thought otherwise. I would probably make a daily habit of strapping on my STI Guardian, with its fine sights and great trigger pull. I bought that firearm at a time when I was more concerned about accuracy at longer ranges. My EDC is a compromise. My practice varies but I spend most of it firing fast at short range. |
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March 14, 2015, 06:59 PM | #43 |
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When shooting at a human body, it is not a cardboard target, so shots fired have to be aimed at the center of the torso. The torso you are facing. The mass.
It is kind of easy, if this person is facing you, square on. Some one pointing a gun, with for instance, their left foot forward, a bullet that should have gone through a lung, ripped straight through a muscle, still not pleasant, but not as devastating as a sucking chest wound. Even more difficult, some one shooting with one hand. |
March 14, 2015, 07:07 PM | #44 | ||
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Posted by Brit:
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March 14, 2015, 07:15 PM | #45 | ||
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Even those who can do both can have difficulty rapidly assessing range and accurately varying their rate of fire on the fly to insure solid hits. I see (and hear) people erring on both sides at timed shooting matches where the range to the targets varies considerably over the stage. I will hear people shooting the entire stage at the same cadence regardless of the fact that the very close targets can be effectively addressed with an extremely high rate of fire--almost ignoring the sights--while those at the much longer distances will require time for sight alignment and demand a much slower cadence. All that said, it is certainly true that those who tend to focus exclusively on slow fire and extreme accuracy, aren't practicing effectively for overwhelmingly most likely self-defense scenario.
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March 14, 2015, 08:08 PM | #46 |
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In a weekend class, with very little work, any good instructor can take someone who has mastered good trigger control and easily get them shooting very very fast for self defense situations. And with good instruction, they will remain adequately accurate at speed. They will be able to balance speed and precision at different distances and in different scenarios, because they have some precision to work with.
In that same weekend class, there will likely be another shooter on the line, someone who has spent a lot of time jerking the trigger as fast as he can in practice. Because he has no foundation in good trigger control, that fast shooter's accuracy sucks coming into the class and it will take him a LOT of hard work to overcome that problem. It probably won't happen in the context of a single weekend, no matter how good the instructor may be. He won't be able to balance speed and precision for self defense work, because he has no precision to bring to the table. Also? Under stress, you will shoot faster. But you won't shoot more accurately. Things to consider. For me, my advice is to build a good foundation before you start hammering away. pax |
March 14, 2015, 08:45 PM | #47 |
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Good discussion.
Your target doesn't change size, but your distance does. So keeping all your holes in an 8" or so circle is the goal. Closer? You can go faster. Further away? Proper aiming and trigger control become very important. One reason I like IDPA. Good mix of speed and accuracy. If you can't hit the target going slow, speeding up won't help. |
March 14, 2015, 08:59 PM | #48 | |
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Posted by pax:
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March 14, 2015, 09:57 PM | #49 | |
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March 14, 2015, 10:47 PM | #50 | |
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