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Old March 7, 2015, 04:03 PM   #26
Venom1956
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But at the end of the day its all about calculated risk.

How many people carry and do the bare minimum to allow it. Many if not most. Even at that level they've increased their ability to defend themselves a thousand fold. They carry because it gives them a sense of security and safety allows them to enjoy their lives more. They don't want to learn martial arts or keep in shape or be an expert knife fighter. Those skills take time and money they would rather use on other things. How many of them will even need to draw or use their gun? Barely any. Probably less the 1%. As long as they conduct themselves in a safe manner to those around them and how they handle their firearm let them be.
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If the altercation turns to hand-to-hand, I'm going to be at a huge disadvantage against most.
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Whos fault is that?
It's no ones fault he is simply being factual. Some people have permanent injuries or ailments that would be a HUGE factor when faced with hand to hand fighting. Even myself, I have an injury if known or found out about could end a fight with me very quickly. Its not about wrong mindset its about knowing your limitations. He didn't say if i lose my gun i'll give up did he?

If a person feels that the above isn't enough to keep them safe enough let them seek out additional training or martial arts etc etc. how many of them will need it in their life time? again hardly any. I know two people that I would be more terrified of with a bit of metal or a big stick then most with a firearm but it took them YEARS to become that proficient at fighting. Lots of people don't even have the interest to expend that kind of energy on things they like then something they could careless about.

And it keeps going like that. there's plenty of people that have spent their entire lives training for battle and never had to use any of it then there's a guy who runs a small business that's been in several gunfights. It doesn't matter how good you are once you find yourself out matched in a gunfight you'll know you are pretty quick.

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Worrying about what others might think in the aftermath, while things are in play, is only going to be detrimental in solving the problem. Focus on the problem, and solve it. Worry later.
I disagree with this completely. While in the realm of 'the fighting' sure it makes sense, but when taken in as a whole this could be just as harmful to your life and livelihood as losing a gunfight.

How to solve problems should be something thought of beforehand and carefully considered. One simple action in the moment could change you from brave citizen defending his family to ruthless executioner of a wounded criminal. How you conduct yourself during and after the fight especially if viewed by others who weren't there and can second guess every action you do from eye witness accounts or video of the event.

Is it tactically sound to leave a wounded enemy behind you in battle? No of course not that rudimentary stuff. Does that give you the right to execute a bleeding man on that floor with his hands up simply because you must go past him for any reason? Reach a phone. Save a loved one. Help a friend. If you did how would it look to the media and a jury?

Look how many of SD shootings spark nationwide coverage and debates. you can become a villian with one news report. Even if everything you did was just. It could ruin your career. Life in public. you could lose everything.

A local man in my state at the age of 80 shot two teens who attacked them with bats. A male and female beat him with them in a stairwell @ his work. He shot both in SD and they ran away and expired outside a short way off. Apparently they were married and had a 9 month old child and the female was 17. Soon as that info was released the uproar was massive he went from 'brave old man' to killing a young mother and father to leave their child an orphan. I remember hearing a reporter or interviewed person say 'they only had baseball bats, they didn't deserve to get shot.'

What I am getting from this paper is yes shooting and gunfighting definitely not the same hardly an novel or insightful statement.

But IMHO Gunfighting and Self defense shooting is hardly the same either.
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Last edited by Venom1956; March 7, 2015 at 04:11 PM.
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Old March 7, 2015, 05:30 PM   #27
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Posted by AK103K:
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Once things start, your full focus should be on winning.
Yes, and "winning" means not getting hurt, whether it is necessary to harm the attacker or not.

Your objective is not to use force to seriously harm an attacker "once things start". Your objective is to do what is immediately necessary to prevent him from seriously harming you. That my require harming him, perhaps even fatally, but that is not your objective.

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Worrying about what others might think in the aftermath, while things are in play, is only going to be detrimental in solving the problem.
True. You really need to think things though beforehand.

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Focus on the problem, and solve it.
It is essential that you "solve" it lawfully.

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Worry later.
Worrying later will do no good whatsoever. What is done will have been done.

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If youre justified to use force, then your justified to use it, and use it as aggressively as you possibly can.
That is almost true. You are justified to use force to the extent that is is necessary. You may not use more force than a reasonable person would consider necessary, or continue using it after the danger has diminished.

Not does it mean that one should "move forward with speed".

The only circumstance that I can visualize in which that would be appropriate would be to prevent someone from harming another person. Moving forward to defend yourself is an oxymoron of sorts, unless "forward" means "toward cover" or "toward the exit".

Let us understand this: "fighting" per se, except in sanctioned contests conducted under strict rules, is illegal. Period.

You do not want to think of that ambush in the parking lot as a "fight". Rather, it is an unlawful attack. You may do what is reasonably necessary, and no more, to prevent serious injury to yourself or to others at that moment.

Again, the book by Marc MacYoung is worth reading. One, but only one, of the many important gems in that book addresses how many MMA instructors claiming to be teaching "self defense" are teaching their students how to get killed or go to jail.
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Old March 7, 2015, 05:53 PM   #28
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Problem with the article is that it lacks any data or proof of the author's assertions. It is opinion based on a very skewed and self-serving view of the author's world...just not a real world.
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Old March 8, 2015, 03:08 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by AK103K
...Once things start, your full focus should be on winning. Anything else, will get in the way,...
You might want to ask Jerome Ersland or Markus Kaarma what they think of that advice. Each was found by a jury to have gone too far, and each was convicted of murder. Ersland lost his appeal and is in prison serving a life sentence. Kaarma was sentenced to 70 years in prison, and it's been reported that he will appeal.
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Old March 8, 2015, 12:02 PM   #30
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This really opens up the debate between two large groups of thought.

1. The Warrior mindset...win at all cost and destroy all opposition.

2. The Defense mindset...avoid conflict, but if attacked, fight until the threat ceases to exist.

The group that teaches #1 is growing and in many of it's tenants, it is in conflict with the law. The group in 1 also tends to look with disdain at those who have the mindset in group 2.

Ask yourself this question...would you rather be trained tactics by a person who successfully avoided taking a life multiple times due to his use of evasion, verbal tactics and retreat, or a person who is built to kill and has killed?

While shooting and fighting are not the same, when guns come out, the most highly trainer shooter wins the vast majority of the time. Rounds on target as fast as possible...that is what action shooting is all about and when it becomes part and parcel of who you are, it is a valuable fighting tool, but just one element of many you may need.
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Old March 8, 2015, 12:54 PM   #31
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With all the talk about wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs, I tend to be more of a mountain goat....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_goat

Mountain goats use their horns & hooves protect their own....they don't go chasing after wolves.
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Old March 8, 2015, 01:33 PM   #32
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^ I might have to quote that.
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Old March 8, 2015, 06:57 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by markco
While shooting and fighting are not the same, when guns come out, the most highly trainer shooter wins the vast majority of the time.
Do you have a link to your data?

My civilian experience (8 years deputy sheriff) has been that when the guns come out the one who has achieved the best tactical position and greatest degree of surprise BEFORE the guns come out is the one who wins the vast majority of the time.
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Old March 8, 2015, 07:21 PM   #34
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Posted by MarkCO:
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This really opens up the debate between two large groups of thought.

1. The Warrior mindset...win at all cost and destroy all opposition.

2. The Defense mindset...avoid conflict, but if attacked, fight until the threat ceases to exist.

The group that teaches #1 is growing and in many of it's tenants, it is in conflict with the law.
Lest there be any misinterpretation by anyone here, I would rephrase the second to read "use appropriate means, including force if necessary, until the attacker ceases to pose an immediate threat".

Following the second school of thought is not only a far better approach to avoiding criminal prosecution, it leads to lower risk of immediate harm, lower risk of retaliation, and lower risk of adverse civil proceedings.
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Old March 8, 2015, 07:25 PM   #35
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I also would like to see something substantive, backing the general claim the most highly trained shooter "wins" in self-defenses cases, most of the time.

At first gloss, that notion seems to assume a fair "contest", governed by rules focused upon a narrow range of skills.

That does not sound like any criminal or self-defense incident of which I am aware, but I am open to instruction.
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Old March 8, 2015, 10:31 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by MarkCO View Post
^ I might have to quote that.
Feel free....I think you'll be the first.
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Old March 9, 2015, 04:41 AM   #37
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And it keeps going like that. there's plenty of people that have spent their entire lives training for battle and never had to use any of it then there's a guy who runs a small business that's been in several gunfights. It doesn't matter how good you are once you find yourself out matched in a gunfight you'll know you are, pretty quick.
That quote, pertains to a Watch repair businessman. If you read the escalation of his mindset, small guns placed all about, to a better (bigger one! 15 round magazine) in a better holster, training from the holster, etc!

We can look at his escalation, and start where he got too, in the end!

The above is for equipment. So think about this, a pistol that works all the time, a reasonable capacity (at least a 15 round magazine, plus a spare) a good fast holster, yes carry a good folder, I always have.

And get good with your stuff, however you feel to do!

It helps that in your past, is a whole lot of fights! Nasty violent ones!

How the fighting in the past really helps, is not so much the training aspect, but the ability to start! Click, go! Most truly civilized people, hesitate! Some freeze totally!

A trained boxer aims for the places you can strike legally. A street fighter hits what hurts most! A flat fist punch to the throat can kill? Do you care? NO!!

If you have used that strike, in the past, and it worked? The size of your criminal opponent matters little.

Mind set! Go about your life in peace, be nice, hold the vehicle door for your Wife (more tactical than good manners) smile a lot, be happy.

But if threatened, you or yours, explode! Violence of action can sometimes be the difference in a street attack. Age is no major detriment, providing your bits all work.

Keep out of places you should not be, don't (Teenager advice! do not stay out after midnight!) Works for me too.
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Old March 15, 2015, 02:28 AM   #38
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What you think about, and what you anticipate happening and practice for will happen. Mutual self assured destruction is not a new concept.
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