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Old February 13, 2015, 05:00 PM   #101
45_auto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluetrain
The other thing is that shooting, say, a hundred rounds in one session of anything but a .22 rimfire is going to be a little hard on your hand and you definitely won't be improving once you start in on the second box.
It's pretty obvious that you've never taken any kind of professional handgun training. You'd be really surprised at how much you'll improve your shooting by taking a real class at somewhere like Gunsite or Rangemaster.
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Old February 13, 2015, 06:18 PM   #102
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It's pretty obvious that you've never taken any kind of professional handgun training.
Don't feel badly about that; that statement probably applies to the vast majority of gun owners.
Quote:
You'd be really surprised at how much you'll improve your shooting by taking a real class at somewhere like Gunsite or Rangemaster.
A man after my own heart.
And the same is true for drivers, but don't get me started.
But not too many folks can afford those top line training places.
Fortunately, bet there's a few local to you that won't require taking out a loan and mortgaging your home.
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Old February 13, 2015, 07:52 PM   #103
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Back to BlueTrain's comment about shooting a lot in one session, I found some years ago that after shooting some number--750, maybe, but I cannot recall--of rounds in a high performance pistol shooing course, I reached a plateau, and stopped improving.

I was using a steel framed .45 automatic. Had I been shooting a light gun, I would have had another problem. BlueTrain mentioned shooting 100 rounds in one session being "hard on your hand". The fact is, too much shooting at one time with a light handgun can lead to irreversible damage to tendons, joints, and nerves. The damage is cumulative. I limit my shooting for that reason. There was a time that I did not. That was a mistake--a bad one.

For those to and three day courses, you really do want to use a service size pistol, and consider wearing gloves. But at least in my experience, I do tend to reach a plateau after some number of rounds, and after that more is not better, but worse.
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Old February 13, 2015, 08:57 PM   #104
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But not too many folks can afford those top line training places.
I hear this all the time from guys who will spend $500-$800 on a pistol, $150 a month on ammo and $300-$400 in range fees per year just goofing around but they wont drop $600.00 on a decent tactical pistol class. I dont get it.
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Old February 14, 2015, 06:06 PM   #105
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Well over the years...

Chapman Academy Advanced Pistol Course, LFI-1, SDI basic and advanced shotgun,
SouthNarc's EQQC, Tom Given's Advanced Pistol, again SouthNarc And Tom Given's (dynamic Marksmanship and handling unknown contacts),
Krav Maga's Team Tactics (yes KM even does gun stuff now.)

All the while in the martial arts with TKD (5th Dan), Krav Maga, and Shotokan as well as IDPA (expert in all divisions), IPSC (class 'A'), etc... And even seminars on JKD, Eskrima, and Muay Thai.

And I don't feel all that trained.

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Old February 15, 2015, 09:02 AM   #106
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they wont drop $600.00 on a decent tactical pistol class. I dont get it.
I can't find a decent tactical pistol class for $600. That is to say, I can find a class that costs $600 and requires at least one case of ammo, renting a room for a night or two, paying for meals, driving half way across the state... And they are usually scheduled on weekends when I have to work.

Suddenly that $600 class looks more like a $1000 class + the loss of income for not working. With that in mind...
Quote:
$150 a month on ammo and $300-$400 in range fees per year
is a much easier pill to swallow.

So, to go back to my op about habits; It is quite easy go get into the habit of doing all my "training" one or two boxes of ammo at a time. Spending a weekend at TDI seems pretty expensive by comparison.
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Old February 15, 2015, 02:21 PM   #107
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To answer somebody's question, no, I haven't taken a professional shooting course and the only formal training was provided by the federal government. But everybody knows their training is flawed and they only issue inferior gear. As for a class, why I can't even afford a range membership now, much less what it would cost to shoot. I quit reloading when large pistol primers mysteriously became hard to find. I could barely afford the first new pistol I ever bought. I shot mostly rifles before moving to town anyway.

What's special about a tactical pistol?

What is considered adequate training has changed over the years. At one time policemen shot their .38 special revolvers with wadcutters, and those with .357 magnums, usually the state troopers, also used wadcutters. I don't know what caused them to change. I suppose no one recommends practice with a .22 in spite of the fact that some seem to believe a .22 pistol is more effective than a .32 or .380. There's something else, too.

I mentioned how a few early gunfighters and instructors studied the techniques of old west gunfighters, mostly as a historical basis. Some instructor, including Cooper, Fairbairn and Applegate, studied the feedback of men who had been in gunfights, especially those with whom they had had previous contact. The interesting thing is how they reached different conclusions about technique and I hope technique is the right word. It's also interesting how they all thought highly of the .45 automatic, which of course was a Colt. I've wondered what they would have thought of a Glock?

I wonder what school Skeeter Skelton and Elmer Keith went to?
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Old February 15, 2015, 03:00 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...What is considered adequate training has changed over the years.....
Yes it has. It has because folks have been studying violent encounters, what was done, and what good or bad results had been achieved. As a result, we have learned things and made changes in doctrine and training to reflect the things we have learned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...Some instructor, including Cooper, Fairbairn and Applegate, studied the feedback of men who had been in gunfights, especially those with whom they had had previous contact. The interesting thing is how they reached different conclusions ....
And they also reflect differences in thinking in different eras and with some different challenges and goals.

The more contemporary trainers, like Col. Cooper, Farnam, Givens, Ayoob, Cirillo, etc., are more similar than different.
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Old February 15, 2015, 04:32 PM   #109
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What's special about a tactical pistol?
Tactical Pistol, Fighting Pistol, Combat Pistol or whatever a particular instructor wants to call it is typically a 2-3 or even 5 day class which serves as a healthy introduction to the concepts, methodology and live fire drills geared toward fighting with a handgun. When I say [fighting], I am referring to meaningful self defense.
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Old February 15, 2015, 04:43 PM   #110
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I hope no one is suggesting that one be certified (by taking a professional training course) before one be permitted to have a handgun, even a hopelessly inadequate one like an S&W Model 10. No doubt the instruction we receive in school before we get our driver's license is inadequate, too. I hope you understand what I'm getting at.
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Old February 15, 2015, 05:52 PM   #111
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If a person is going to carry a firearm with the willingness to defend themselves or possibly someone else, I simply think that in the spirit of prudence- a person should probably seek some competent training in the arena of armed self defense. I have always been a proponent of training but I have never been a proponent of ownership being contingent upon some level of training.
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Old February 15, 2015, 09:18 PM   #112
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collectors

There are various folks who have the time and money to attend an assortment of schools and classes, or who decide to invest what time and money they have in that manner. All good and well. And I agree that some degree of training will be beneficial to all, regardless of their level. Owning and carrying a firearm is certainly not as simple as buying and using an electric toaster.

What I think I see though is that certain types of folks attending the assorted schools begin to collect classes like match books, then flaunt their achievements. It becomes a status symbol to spout that one has attended "such and such" school and course, and some seem more than willing to do so. Kind of like a varsity letter. All the cool kids have one. The gun media/writers, have contributed to that gendre. They attend such and such with such and such a firearm, write it up, and it becomes fashionable for us as enthusiasts to follow suit.

I doubt that many, if any of the American populance attend such classes though. The various shootings reported in the "Rifleman" and occassionally the news, record what seem to be average folks surviving confrontations I suspect with very little training at all. Luck maybe, or simply more proficient than their anatagonist...maybe both....I dunno. I don't want to rely on luck, but I don't necessarily need a varsity letter to survive either.

"Be prepared" seems a suitable phrase......to what degree a good question?
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Old February 15, 2015, 09:49 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by bamaranger
...The various shootings reported in the "Rifleman" and occassionally the news, record what seem to be average folks surviving confrontations I suspect with very little training at all.....
Yes, "seem to be." But the truth is that we really know almost nothing about them, so you're just guessing.

In any case, whatever skills they had were sufficient to deal with the problem they had. Had it been a slightly different problem, the results might have been different. And we don't seem to do a very good job of tracking failures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bamaranger
...I don't necessarily need a varsity letter to survive either. ...
How do you know? The truth is that you can't know in advance what your problem will be, so you can't know in advance what you'll have to be able to do to solve it. You get to decide how prepared you want to be; but the better prepared you are, the luckier you'll be.

Of course for the vast majority of us the balloon will never go up. But if it does for you and the problem you face is beyond your available skills to solve, you'll most likely have an unhappy outcome.
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Old February 16, 2015, 12:05 AM   #114
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What I think I see though is that certain types of folks attending the assorted schools begin to collect classes like match books, then flaunt their achievements.
Yes, there is a lot of that.

They won't accept the fact that there are lots of ways to reach the same ends, and they will tell you it has to be their way, or not at all
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Old February 16, 2015, 09:58 AM   #115
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Assessing the possible threats in one's life and preparing for it has many options.
Going to war?
Patrolling the streets looking for bad guys?
Home and family defense?
Business place defense?
On the road threats?
And all the other considerations.
It's going to be up to the individual as to the type and level of training and skill needed.
The requirements to meet them are all going to be different.
For most of us, the greatest threat will come from Mother Nature, anyway.
Anyone dealing with that?
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Old February 16, 2015, 10:11 AM   #116
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Posted by g.willikers:
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It's going to be up to the individual as to the type and level of training and skill needed.
The individual will decide what training to take (or not), but for most civilian defensive situations involving the use of a handgun in the out of doors, the actual needs are most likely very similar indeed.

They entail the ability to handle a completely unexpected, very violent, rapidly unfolding attack by one or more criminal actors, most probably within a distance of three to five yards.

That ability would be needed if and only only if all else--absence and avoidance, "situational awareness", etc., fail.

I'll say again that most "bad habits" that "can get you killed" have to do with what people do or do not do before there is any need to reach for a firearm.
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Old February 16, 2015, 04:17 PM   #117
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I don't think the typical person who just keeps a gun at home needs to be trained to the skill level of a policeman, assuming that a policeman has a high skill level. If you carry on the street, something more would be a good idea.

In any case, you need to be very familiar with your weapon, which itself needs to be simple and easy (not the same thing) to manipulate as well as reliable. I place caliber and action type rather low on the list. But more important than anything is your mindset should you be threatened. Cooper spoke of that in his little red book.
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Old February 16, 2015, 07:32 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by BlueTrain
I don't think the typical person who just keeps a gun at home needs to be trained to the skill level of a policeman,...
I'm always fascinated by the folks who seem to somehow be prescient enough to know how much training or skill someone else will need to deal with whatever problems he'll face in his life. Perhaps those with such gifts should be playing the Lotto or betting on horse races.

I can, and will, decide how much training I will get. But since even I can't know how much I'll need, how can someone else know? Even even a cop will lose sometimes, suggesting that he did have the training or skills he need to deal with the problem that was his undoing.
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Old February 16, 2015, 07:54 PM   #119
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I can, and will, decide how much training I will get.
So will everyone else, and paying for the classes, or getting a certificate at the end makes no difference in what is actually learned
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Old February 16, 2015, 08:04 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Snyper
...paying for the classes, or getting a certificate at the end makes no difference in what is actually learned
So you say and have said in the past. And no doubt you believe that. However, your belief doesn't make it true.
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Old February 16, 2015, 09:02 PM   #121
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However, your belief doesn't make it true.
That applies both ways
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Old February 17, 2015, 02:47 AM   #122
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judge

I learned along time ago that you can't win an argument with the judge in his courtroom. I'm done.
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Old February 17, 2015, 06:08 AM   #123
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Speaking of bad habits that can get you killed.

Having a back and forth "yeah-huh" "nu-uh" argument with the staff will get a thread killed.
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Old February 17, 2015, 10:02 AM   #124
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So in summation when it comes to training is it fair to say:

Each person's needs, capacity, and desire are different.

or we can just do like my wife. She needs no training. She has the Minivan of Death, and curbs are merely guidelines to be ignored when inconvenient.
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Old February 17, 2015, 10:12 AM   #125
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Does anyone believe that using a handgun, which one has been using for the last 45 years, is really as difficult as playing a piano?
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