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Old February 11, 2015, 11:28 AM   #76
g.willikers
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What would be the recommended practice for when there's no cover available, no concealment, and no place to go to get out of the way of the aggressor or their weapon?
Like maybe when caught in an elevator, or a stairway or hallway?
Or getting into or out of a car?
There's lots to think about.
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Old February 11, 2015, 11:30 AM   #77
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The central point is that we cannot rely upon speed alone as the singular "measure of success". It is one factor among many.
well said

I think that we have reached an impasse with those who see self defense training through the prism of a regulated sporting competition. I think it is fair to say that although you and I (generally)agree.. we will have to simply agree to disagree with our other brothers in this thread.

I have offered all the content I can .. best wishes to all
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Old February 11, 2015, 11:41 AM   #78
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What would be the recommended practice for when there's no cover available, no concealment, and no place to go to get out of the way of the aggressor or their weapon?
Like maybe when caught in an elevator, or a stairway or hallway?
Or getting into or out of a car?
depending on the circumstances.. a [supine close quarters drill] may apply.
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Old February 11, 2015, 01:00 PM   #79
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... The myth of the duel in the middle of the street has a lot to do with a lot of things, but I doubt that anyone believes, even subconsciously, that "it", where "it" refers to a defensive use of force incident, will "approximate or mirror" such fiction. ...
I think you are right that (most) people don't actually believe that they will face off on a dusty street, and draw upon the clock striking twelve.

In that respect, it's surprising how often in these kinds of conversations suggest something very similar as a challenge to the point. This is an old conversation for me now, and I've personally been called out on several occasions to airsoft/sims duels to "prove" how important a quick draw is for self defense.

I've never accepted such a duel, as I find it silly, but the evidence from FoF exercises seems to indicate that over-reliance on a quick draw is "a thing". It's pretty telling when you see people with a sub-second draws get themselves repeatedly pasted, owing to superior tactics employed by someone who cannot shoot nearly as well. Timers don't lie ... about what they can measure. Welts don't lie ... about other things not measurable with a timer.

While most don't believe in a street-duel per-se, those thousands of hours of visual "training" form a pattern of expectations for what is effective. I perceive a common belief (unsupported by fact) that the first person to get off a shot will be "the winner". That's actually a meme repeated in various forms by many gun-writers and instructors. It just doesn't turn out to be the case.

It's also fairly common for people to (still) express some version of a one-shot stop, or a "harder hitting" bullet, that will "knock a man down". That idea does not come from any recorded reality,but you see it all the time on TV.

It's a telling observation that people who have not had constant access to TV/Movies ... westerns, war movies, cop shows ... don't act the same way when shot. People from media saturated countries tend to fall down - just like they are "supposed to do". Those unaffected by media tend to keep doing whatever they were doing, until the actual physical effects take hold.
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Old February 11, 2015, 01:55 PM   #80
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I agree with the above...to a degree

Zombie, you posted a link to a Ron Avery vid. The footage is him discussing the need for rapid movement off the line of attack WHILE you RAPIDLY draw and engage your attacker. The faster you can get your pistol into action in those circs the better your chance of prevailing in the encounter.

Without getting into OODA loops and disrupting your attackers thought process, suffice it to say quick movement and a RAPID presentation of your pistol are the best option in most cases
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Old February 11, 2015, 02:17 PM   #81
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I agree with the above...to a degree
I am more encouraged by "to a degree" than "wholeheartedly", lol. It shows there is a thinking individual on the other end of the conversation.

Quote:
Zombie, you posted a link to a Ron Avery vid. The footage is him discussing the need for rapid movement off the line of attack WHILE you RAPIDLY draw and engage your attacker. The faster you can get your pistol into action in those circs the better your chance of prevailing in the encounter.
Agreed. The point was not to suggest "speed doesn't matter", but rather speed-of-draw alone is not a solution.

That probably seems as obvious to you as it does to me. As such, it might come off as either over-emphasizing the point to a degree you find distasteful, or making a point other than intended.

It's nonetheless surprising to see how people rely (initially, welts teach lessons, lol) on a quick draw absent movement in FoF exercises. Some learn quickly, but - amazingly - I've witnessed too many "wow I need to really work on my draw speed" types ... they just don't get it.
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Old February 11, 2015, 03:24 PM   #82
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Zombie, dont give up.. I think there are a couple who are starting to grasp the concept.
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Old February 11, 2015, 03:35 PM   #83
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I remember stories during training with the NYPD in '91 & '92 about officers getting shot while or after dumping brass from revolvers into their hand. I personally switched to semi-auto in '94 (G19), I believe a year after the voluntary change began.

I also remember being cautioned about a bad habit officers got into off-duty. Some were shot with their gun in hand and still holstered. Not with a proper purchase, mind you, but with gun and holster in hand as if unclipped from the belt. Apparently, as they would take their rig off everyday was how they attempted to present during a threat. Ever since, right or wrong and when I reasonably can, I draw the gun from it's holster before removing the holster itself.
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Old February 11, 2015, 03:41 PM   #84
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... Zombie, dont give up.. I think there are a couple who are starting to grasp the concept. ...
I'm not assuming that anyone in particular doesn't get it. Sometimes people describe the same concepts in different ways, and it's important to calibrate for those kinds of misunderstandings.
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Old February 11, 2015, 03:44 PM   #85
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Back to the Original Question

Realistically, I think the "bad habits" that I have seen and or heard about that are most likely to lead to a bad outcome in a situation involving a criminal attack have to do with what happens long before shooting starts and long before a firearm is drawn.

Here are a few examples. Some of them describe actual events that led to carjackings, muggings, robberies, and kidnappings.
  • Sitting in a car reading, eating, or concentrating on a smart phone or tablet
  • Speaking on a cell phone and concentrating on other things while putting groceries or an infant into an automobile
  • Using an ATM from the driver's seat of an automobile while alone and without having driven around once to check for suspicious-looking people
  • Walking close to alley openings, building corners, dumpsters, parked vans, etc.
  • Failing to recognize and react quickly to the potential risks in a situation in which an unknown person is pointing a smart-phone at you
  • Turning one's back on a person after an encounter in which that person may have taken offense or felt slighted

I'm sure that others can expand on that list.
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Old February 11, 2015, 03:55 PM   #86
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The central point is that we cannot rely upon speed alone as the singular "measure of success". It is one factor among many.
I don't think there is any disagreement with that.
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Old February 11, 2015, 04:03 PM   #87
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I'm primarily a LE firearms instructor. Sure, I still work with a private citizen now and again, but I stopped teaching those classes when I retired, and haven't decided if it's worth it - liability-wise - to get involved in doing it again.

Anyway, since everything I may teach is ultimately aimed at giving our folks the tools to prevail in a deadly force encounter, without themselves or an innocent third person being shot (and while staying within the applicable state laws and policies), it's not a hypothetical exercise when I'm discussing technique, mindset, skillset, etc.

I'm not trying to create mirror images of myself, though. I'll not try to correct some occasional "habits" which aren't likely to interfere with, or hinder, someone's ability to successfully perform as needed in an actual deadly force situation. I'll also not try to reinvent someone from the ground up during a short training exposure, either.

Instead, I'll focus my attention on any 1 or 2 errors or counter-productive mannerisms that may be slowing someone down, interfering with their ability to multi-task, distracting them being able to see something, and from maintaining critical awareness and the ability to prioritize focus, judgment and decisions-making abilities.

Personally, I'd be happy if more people learned how to actually use their chosen (or issued) holsters, in a safe and smooth manner ... for both drawing AND holstering (also called re-holstering).

It's always dismaying to see people being unfamiliar, awkward or uncertain in their drawing and holstering methods. That can increase the potential for unwanted mishaps to occur (fumbling, dropping or even negligent discharges), or simply slow them from being able to properly draw and present their weapon.

LE are probably more often required to demonstrate weapon handling and holstering, while private citizens may not have to demonstrate that they even know how to thread a belt holster (or slide a paddle) on their belt. I've seen many, many more private citizens who were outright uncomfortable with using holsters than I have LE exhibit that sort of issue, and yet I've seen many, many more LE people than private citizens on training & qual ranges.

Lots of weird choices in holsters, too. Some folks have almost seemed to have gone out of their way to select a carry method, or holster design, which hindered them more than it helped them.

So ... speed of drawing & presentation?

I'd be satisfied just to see safe, proper and smooth application of drawing & presentation skills. We can always slowly work on speed once it's being done safely and correctly.

Safe, proper & smooth ... with the appropriate carry method/holster for the user's needs, maintained in the proper condition.

Probably not much good to rush things for sheer speed, when all it might result in is being able to quickly make serious (including tragic) mistakes.

First things first, and some prudent prioritization probably isn't a bad idea, either.

Just some thoughts.
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Old February 11, 2015, 04:13 PM   #88
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A final thought I had just after I posted the previous post.

I've been involved in various martial arts for more then 40 years (since '71). I've had a badge for more than 30 years and this is my 25th year as a LE firearms instructor. All of that in mind, I long ago realized that if someone's trying to seriously injure or kill me (or any innocent third party), the last thing I want to do is have my actions work to the favor of the attacker(s). I don't want to help them achieve their goals, or "do their work" for them.

They tend not to over-think things like many of us may sometimes seem to be inclined to do.
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Old February 11, 2015, 04:46 PM   #89
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I finally took the time to watch the Ron Avery video linked in Post 64.

It is excellent, and it is essentially the same thing that is presented in Combat Focus Shooting (aka Dynamic Focus Shooting) training.

I recommend CFS training.

I will add one thing. Moving "off line" to avoid getting hit may be an excellent tactic, but in a real world situation, there is another very compelling treason to start moving before drawing. That has to do with getting a clear shot that will not endanger persons in the foreground; setting up a direction of fire that will not endanger innocents in the background; and if possible, to enable shooting at a backstop.

I did just that some years ago when I interrupted an obvious robbery in a grocery store. Improvised, I should say--I had never thought about it before, and I had not yet taken the CFS training.

Fortunately, the gun never had to come out. I spooked the man, and he took off--fast.

I learned something about adrenalin that day. I could not describe the man, the getaway car, or the driver afterward, though I had seen them, looked at them, and focussed on them enough to comprehend the situation.

I had noted the car and driver before entering the store. A smart person would not have entered at all.

I had never thought before about people who practice drawing without moving, but I do recall seeing someone doing that with a timer late last year. At the time I assumed that he had his reasons, but upon reflection, I now think it more likely that he was simply one of the persons that zombie has been describing.

The reason that I have long assumed that I would start moving fast before drawing is that I really wold like something like a car door or my car between me and a charging assailant with a contact weapon.
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Old February 11, 2015, 06:41 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by fastbolt
Lots of weird choices in holsters, too. Some folks have almost seemed to have gone out of their way to select a carry method, or holster design, which hindered them more than it helped them.

So ... speed of drawing & presentation?

I'd be satisfied just to see safe, proper and smooth application of drawing & presentation skills. We can always slowly work on speed once it's being done safely and correctly.
You're singing my song.

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Old February 12, 2015, 12:51 AM   #91
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I'd be satisfied just to see safe, proper and smooth application of drawing & presentation skills. We can always slowly work on speed once it's being done safely and correctly.
Absolutely.

First things first.
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Old February 12, 2015, 01:31 AM   #92
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I'm kind of curious how many of the "experts" in this discussion have ever been shot at. Or how many have discharged a weapon with the intent of doing serious harm to someone
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Old February 12, 2015, 09:43 AM   #93
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Posted by phwe9774:
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I'm kind of curious how many of the "experts" in this discussion have ever been shot at. Or how many have discharged a weapon with the intent of doing serious harm to someone.
Well, I'm no expert, and I have never been shot at, nor have I fired at anyone, but I have had to produce a firearm for defensive purposes more than once over a long lifetime.

Due to the number of variables involved, I would put no more stock in the opinion of someone who had been fired at, or who had shot at someone, than I would in anyone else. FoF training is much more telling.

There may be one area of exception--how one reacts physiologically and psychologically after a real scare.

This from fastbolt is an excellent read that I think is very relevant here. It addresses the importance of movement.
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Old February 12, 2015, 11:27 AM   #94
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Due to the number of variables involved, I would put no more stock in the opinion of someone who had been fired at, or who had shot at someone, than I would in anyone else. FoF training is much more telling.
I think many people do not realize how unreliable first-person testimony is. Further, the testimony of people who have been involved in violent incidents often contradicts physical and video evidence.

It's also the case that the opinions of "the experienced" contradict each other. You end up with "dueling opinions".

This forces a thinking person to conclude that - unless we pick a "hero" to follow blindly - there are better ways to find out what works and what doesn't.
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Old February 12, 2015, 05:28 PM   #95
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Tactical or Strategic training is develop based on the successes and abject failures of those who have done the job. Training is in a constant state of flux and is always evolving based on new developments, knowledge and ideas. To that end, I agree that there is certainly alot of merit that should be given to the opinions of those who have been in the fight. I certainly have never been in a gunfight, I am simply a layman joe-citizen with plenty of honest opinion.

I expect that there are probably plenty of very skilled combat pilots around the globe who have never been in a real dog fight. Still, they are well trained and capable of doing the job they have been given. Capability can be measured by several means but I would like to think that the quality of training coupled with a individuals personal grit makes up most of it.
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Old February 12, 2015, 07:12 PM   #96
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Posted by FireForged:
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I expect that there are probably plenty of very skilled combat pilots around the globe who have never been in a real dog fight.
Actually, among pilots still active today, that's all of them.

Their tactics and skills are developed and honed via high-fidelity simulation and flight training exercises.
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Old February 12, 2015, 07:17 PM   #97
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The recent "Gas Station Robbery" episode of The Best Defense shows very well some of the things that have been emphasized here, including the high importance of moving, the advantages of cover and concealment, and the folly of trying to out draw a man with a drawn gun.

Not to mention avoiding being surprised.
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Old February 13, 2015, 11:05 AM   #98
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^^^ My wife and I were watching that same epidsode, thinking the same things.
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Old February 13, 2015, 12:18 PM   #99
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The "good habits" I already have include the following, along with refueling during daylight whenever possible:
  • I tend to start the process by looking around, and to keep looking around.
    If things do not seem right, I'll go elsewhere.
  • I am programmed to move first, looking for distance, freedom to move, concealment, and cover, before even thinking about drawing a firearm.
I can no longer move as fast as in years past, and I do not have Michael Janich's hand skills, speed, or strength.

I do not consider myself all that fast in drawing from concealment. In winter, with long garments, I tend to slip a Centennial into an accessible weak hand pocket.

When I watched the Gas Station Robbery episode with a neighbor yesterday, we both concluded that it would be a good idea to get our blackthorn sticks out of the car whenever we refuel. I haven't been doing that.
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Old February 13, 2015, 04:34 PM   #100
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While the Western gunfighters on television were fictional, some early students of handguns, among them Rex Applegate, made it a point to study some the early ones and to see what their techniques were. They apparently thought it worthwhile.

But that's not the point I intend to make. This habit won't get you killed but I think it might actually reduce your proficiency. But first, I agree with those who think a smooth draw is important. You have to become so familiar with your handgun that using it becomes second nature, just like driving a car. It probably won't take as long as some would suggest, however, and some men have gone into combat with less training that most shooters do in a weekend. Wartime tends to eliminate leisure time, especially in training. To return to the car analogy, I had to figure out how to drive a right-hand drive, manual transmission, six-speed, never having driven that combination before. The first hundred yards were difficult but after that it wasn't so bad. I wasn't going to drive in any races but it was good enough to get me through the week.

Well, anyhow, I think many shooter do too much shooting at once. I believe this to be bad for two reasons. One, it might make you forget that you are only going to have so many rounds to use "in real life." Are there any competitions in which you only use 21 rounds? That doesn't address the question of how many shots you should fire, however.

The other thing is that shooting, say, a hundred rounds in one session of anything but a .22 rimfire is going to be a little hard on your hand and you definitely won't be improving once you start in on the second box. Ideally, you should shoot a magazine once a day or something like that. But I don't know anyone who could manage something like that. So you're stuck. It's really part of the limitations of shooting at a commercial range. Having to stand in line just to get a lane is a real headache, so I can easily understand how that detracts from your experience.

Some of those older writers gave ordinary people a lot more credit for being able to work out the best solutions to their own handgunning issues than seems to be the case these days. This is the day of the certified expert, you know, and that doesn't include me.
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