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Old December 13, 1998, 12:14 PM   #26
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Ok. I'll bite! (I feel you were "fishing" for rebuttal with your "paranoid, alarmist" comment.)
Part of the problem is we civilians are not given the complete story - total and free of bias. Part of the problem for you is that we live in a country where some civilians have the (perhaps mistaken) impression we have the right to question why tanks were used on civilians. Why were the front doors disposed of so quickly? Why was the place bulldozed so quickly? Why was the NRA told they could examine the so-called fully automatic firearms - but when BATF learned NRA would x-ray (or whatever) the guns to learn if they were in fact auto or semi-auto access was immediately cancelled without explanation?
I'm not attacking the BATF (at the moment) for anything other than their secrecy. To permit only certain information to be published, to blatantly hide and distort facts (even AFTER the trials are over) wipes out the BATF's right to be insulted when "paranoid alarmists" ask, "What the heck happened? And why won't you tell me?"
And about being a nurse. I'm an EMT-Basic. I teach First Aid and CPR for a living.
But my background is twenty years in military intelligence. I can continue this conversation in Russian or German if you so desire. (I've lost my Polish, Hindustani, and Urdu language skills due to lack of use.)
I am also an American, as you are, and as the nurse is. I also support my local LEOs and LE agencies, physically, financially, morally, and with my teaching skills. Don't you EVER imply we "civilians" have lost the right to question your actions - regardless of what our profession happens to be. We have the right to question law enforcement because we're Americans.
I'll quit now because I'm pissed.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited 12-13-98).]
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Old December 13, 1998, 03:10 PM   #27
Rich Lucibella
Join Date: October 6, 1998
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Everyone please take a deep breath and count to 10. The Firing Line is an excercise in exchange of is not rec.guns.

We have attracted a higher percentage of LEO's than most other boards for a reason...this site provides an interface for civil discussion and debate. I can not allow it to degenerate into a pissing contest.

I sat thru and recorded the entire Senate Hearings on Waco in 1995. I personally believe it was the single, greatest FUBAR perpetrated by Federal Law Enforcement on the American Public. I personally believe the military was duped into violating the doctrine of Posse Comitatus. I personally believe careers should have been ended (beginning with Janet Reno) and criminal charges considered. While I may personally believe I'm right, I also respect others' rights to disagree.

However, we can not allow every (or even most) Federal agents to be held responsible....any more than we can allow every citizen who refuses to own a firearm to be labeled "Sheeple", or every NRA member to be labeled a crazed, militia marching, NeoNazi. When we fall into these traps, the we all loose.

This discussion is already *way* off topic. We will allow it to continue, only because I, too, have contributed and it would be unfair to deny others the same right. But I ask you each to keep it civil...I know that is difficult in light of the deaths of scores of American citizens (both private and LEO)....but I think we can do it.

To this end, let me offer the first apology to Spartacus. In rereading my post to you, I can see how it might be interpreted as an ad hominem attack...please accept my sincere apology and my pledge that it was never intended as such.

OK....exhale .

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 12-13-98).]
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Old December 13, 1998, 03:14 PM   #28
Byron Quick
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Sorry. Reread my post. I did not generalize. I specifically limited my observations to the federal agents I have seen with my own eyes. No media or hearsay was mentioned. Granted I have only seen about 15 in action. I am also open to the possibility that there are many honorable agents. I have one question for them: How can you consider yourself to be honorable defenders of the Constitution while taking the orders of Ms. Reno, Mr. Freeh, Mr. Clinton, et. al.? The FBI agents from the Ruby Ridge incident who testified in open court that they disregarder the "modified" rules of engagement for those rules were obviously illegal were honorable men. Wonder how their careers are doing in relation to Lon Horiuchi?

There is no excuse, no mitigating circumstance, and no ex post facto rationalization which will justify the federal government's actions at Waco. Waco was the result of arrogant abuse of power and a blatant disregard for the Constitution as well as-apparently- an utter lack of humanity.

On a humorous note in regard to your observation about Quality Assurance nurses. I've a friend who was written up for only obtaining one IV access on a trauma patient when the standard of care is for a minimum of two large bore IV's. His reply? "Well, since the patient was on a stretcher hanging from the side of a cliff, at 2AM, and in a blinding deluge of a thunderstorm...I'm actually very proud of what you described as my substandard care of this patient>."
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Old December 13, 1998, 08:31 PM   #29
Rob Pincus
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--swooping down from the rafters...--

Okay. I have watched this thread develop and even sent out a couple of private emails a couple of days ago, because of where I thought it was going. Well it got there.
I thank Rich for stepping in, as I did not feel it was my place to do so, but now that he has commented....

What you did was make a typical statement. I would expect to here it in many settings, but I would prefer not to read it at TFL. I respect just about everyone here very much and have recommended this site to a great many people as what a Forum should be. No offense to anyone who particpated, but I felt that this topic was loaded. Spartacus pulled the trigger.
You did generalize when you stated:
"if a federal agent told me the sun was rising in the east I'd grab a compass and go outside to check"
Hey, I generalize all the time, but not to denigrate a group of people who out there standing on the line trying to protect our country. Sure, many of them make mistakes, but a great many more of them do the right thing, every day. A guy with a badge should get the benefit of the doubt until he proves he doesn't deserve it, IMHO.

I've been on both sides of an investigation and understand that things are not always fair-- for either side.

Discussing the Tactics involved at Waco is kinda like discussing the JFK Assassination. Lots of theories, lots of ideas, but only a few people were there. Only a few people really know what happened. As none of them are here it is kinda hard to have something to really discuss.

This is a great resource that we have, one that everyone can contribute to in one way or another. It will only get better if we continue to add facts, ideas and opinions. If we start throwing accusation and conjecture into the mix, we will follow a whole lot of other online forums into a maze of immaturity, bad info, personality cults and flame wars.

This is all my opinion, FWIW, if I've stepped over a line, send me an email and I'll edit this whole message to read:

"Hey, whatever, come find me when you're ready to talk guns...."

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Old December 14, 1998, 06:59 PM   #30
Byron Quick
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Rich, no problem here. Wasn't offended then...not offended now. FWIW, the local, county, and state LEO's I've talked with share my opinion of the Federal law enforcement agencies, i.e, they need a thorough house cleaning from the top down and a watchdog Congressional committee such as the intelligence community must coordinate with. Let's talk guns.
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Old December 14, 1998, 07:03 PM   #31
Rob Pincus
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Okay, If there is anything left to say on the politics of this situation, lets take it to the Political Forum.


If you have a problem with this thread getting closed down, send me an Email.


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