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Old January 6, 2011, 10:56 AM   #1
Brit
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Point shooting any one?

An other thread that I post/read all in, had a major fall out with point shooting Instructors, I posted this in reply to their displease, what say you?


If some one goes to a class, put on by a Point Shooting advocate, pays their coin, takes the class, and is happy?

Who are we to argue with either side, Instructor or Student.

A lot of the back ground comes from Sykes and Fairbourn, kind of old, but it worked, probably still does, for that same application, fighting wee killers in Shanghai, mostly in the dark.

Not for me, what I teach, pin point accuracy... Quickly! To justify that, I have examined the shootings, out in the public domain, everybody's. Starting with the punch draw.

Cops and others, day and night, multiple assailants, at least more than 1, not an Army, but say a couple.

When teaching LEO's, I require a shot into an eye socket, across a kitchen, in two seconds, gun in hand to start, (hostage/domestic around 15' max) or a toe of a sneaker, at 15 yds (simulating a hidden youth, who tried a couple of pot shots at the Officer) behind a car dealership (oh yes, both have happened, more than once)

Most time the sights are not used properly, and trigger control is not good, this is a job for one one one, IMHO.

A ricochet 6" in front of said sneaker? Hiding behind a Dumpster, most likely will give you bigger, on the deck target, screaming OCH! OCH! yes?

Night sights are not a luxury!

My class size? One.

Keep Safe.
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Old January 6, 2011, 11:19 AM   #2
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How do you teach the proper use of the sights?
The method that works the quickest for me is to concentrate on and practice good form.
Grip, trigger, stance, 'etc all must be near perfect for fast, accurate shooting.
When all else is good, the sights will be on the target, even small ones at the distances you mentioned.
No need to actually think about them.
They will be there.
Is that the method you use?
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Old January 6, 2011, 12:16 PM   #3
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Quote:
Not for me, what I teach, pin point accuracy... Quickly!
I see nothing wrong with learing point shooting or pin point accuracy. But, regarding the later, I have a hard time seeing a situation when I would actually use that. I certainly will not be shooting anyone in public across a kitchen aiming for their eye socket...., but then again I'm not a LEO.

I have resigned, in my mind, that I will not be shooting anyone in a public setting outside of a 10-12 foot radius. In fact, beyond 6 feet is hard for me to imagine. At these short distances I feel that being proficient at point shooting is important.

Now, if I am investigating a potential burglary of my home, I would likely use aimed shooting over point shooting.

The main difference between civilians and LEO's is that civilians are charged with protecting themselves, while LEO's are concerned with protecting others. Different distances involved and therefore a completely different type of shooting may be called for.
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Old January 6, 2011, 01:20 PM   #4
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I've done a little point shooting, three to seven yards at a man size target and have done quite well. Thing is in real shooting when one is dealing with a perhaps highly active and violent BG you have to remember the pucker factor that adrenalin puts your whole body into, every thing changes. Now I've never had to deal with a human to human situation but I have killed a lot of deer and elk over the years and I know how adrenalin has affected me, even when the animal didn't even know I was there and I knew that I had a superior situation it took some time to settle down to get a decent aim. On the other hand one time a buck was very aware and was on the move away from me at about 50 feet, I point shot him in the spine with my Redhawk. I had done a lot of practice with that revolver before killing that animal, I never really considered myself all that good of a target shooter with the Redhawk, so I have to ask since I knew that I didn't have the time to aim am I actually better point shooting because of having a feel for that weapon, sort of an extention of my hands? The point shooting I did at three to seven yards was with a Stoeger Cougar 40 which I have found to be very accurate and when I've practiced point and site non shooting it's always been close on to target. I own an XDm 40 that so far has not done well in that department, I may have to put hundreds of rounds through it to be as good as the Cougar, if ever, the XDm may just not be a fit for me. What really made me feel good when I did the point shooting with the Cougar was that in the six rounds fired at one point on the target the area was within the circumference of about 6" with a couple of ragged holes where bullet holes overlapped
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Old January 6, 2011, 01:36 PM   #5
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What is the pass/fail ratio with this one on one class?

I can't make an objection to precision shooting but on the other hand, I'd probably never achieve the necessary standard. One of the givens of some of the past advocates of point shooting like Fairbairn and Applegate was that they did not have unlimited time and resources to teach their methods, which in fact greatly influenced their teaching or training. Rather like basic training in the army, which of course is supplemented by continual training later on.
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Old January 6, 2011, 03:16 PM   #6
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When push comes to shove, if it ever does, 99% of all shootings are point shooting. I practice point shooting some, but it is not the main focus of my training.
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Old January 6, 2011, 03:51 PM   #7
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I practice point shooting,,,

For one main reason,,,

Why not?
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Old January 6, 2011, 06:55 PM   #8
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I have absolute confidence in my ability to reset multiple times a bad guy's OODA loop with point shooting, and to do so until the fight is won. That's why I carry a gun, and that's why point shooting is one of the skills I have cultivated.
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Old January 6, 2011, 07:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Och! Och!
???
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Old January 6, 2011, 07:22 PM   #10
Brit
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G Willikers

Quote:
How do you teach the proper use of the sights?
The method that works the quickest for me is to concentrate on and practice good form.
Grip, trigger, stance, 'etc all must be near perfect for fast, accurate shooting.
When all else is good, the sights will be on the target, even small ones at the distances you mentioned.
No need to actually think about them.
They will be there.
Is that the method you use?
As we are not talking Target Shooting IE The one hand in pocket, head erect, and an on an on! But fighting with a pistol, walking, running, static (from what ever position) as we are talking speed, as others have said, first one with the metal on the meat, has the best chance of winning, this bout!

Take a OTB holster (for one method) just behind your hip bone, under a Florida shirt, first and final grip, pull straight up, soon as muzzle clears, wrist swivels pistol to aim at target, when the forearm, wrist, and pistol, are in a straight, locked position, around the armpit, that rigid unit is punched into the support hand (if you can utilize the support hand) the muzzle is punched forward, just as though it was a bayonet.

As soon as the movement stops, the trigger has completed it's rearward ride, the gun fires.

Guess what, draw and dry fire... Over/and Over/and Over, when you feel that click, you must know where those sights had stopped!

I endorse TruGlow, Fiber optic, in green.
Reference the difference between a 15 yd shot, or a 10 ft one, speed of first shot, depends on distance, and difficulty of that shot. Practice a lot, single, multiple BGs, over and over, this is not easy.

You can tell where the first round landed, by where you observed the front sight was, when the pistol recoiled from that location.

Sorry that was kind of long.
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Old January 6, 2011, 07:26 PM   #11
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OCH-OCH

The noise educated BGs make, when a WW 127g Ranger T perforates those 26 bones of his/her foot.

Last edited by Brit; January 7, 2011 at 03:30 AM.
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Old January 6, 2011, 07:29 PM   #12
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Redstategunnut

Quote:
I have absolute confidence in my ability to reset multiple times a bad guy's OODA loop with point shooting, and to do so until the fight is won. That's why I carry a gun, and that's why point shooting is one of the skills I have cultivated.
Nothing wrong with that.
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Old January 7, 2011, 12:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
I practice point shooting,,,
For one main reason,,,

Why not?
The main objection might be that your practice time would be more profitably spent else where.

imho that would be practicing aimed shots.
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Old January 7, 2011, 12:58 AM   #14
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For me point shooting and sighted shooting are merely points along the same line. They each have their place and both need practice to do well. Choosing one or the other exclusively is silly.

From kissing distance to a few yards out point shooting gets the dance started and might very well bring it to a close. If you are in contact distance the shooting stars as soon as the pistol clears leather. Its hard to use the sights when the pistol is at hip level. As you make space between you and the bad guy and continue bringing your gun up you can point shoot quite effectively. Once the gun is up in front of your eyes the important trick becomes how fast can you change your focus from the BG to the front sight.

My favorite training technique for that focus shift doesn't even involve a gun. All it takes is a finger and a TV set. Extend your hand in front of you and extend a finger. Pick a character on the TV and aim your finger at him. Now shift your focus from the TV (target focus) to the tip of your finger (front sight focus). Repeat until your eyes bleed and it becomes a well trained muscle memory.
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Old January 7, 2011, 01:11 AM   #15
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Point Shooting Should Be In Your Skill Set

Shooting with the sights is superior to point shooting in most cases. When I started I bought No Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan. I could hit from the hip in the center of the chest at 12'.

Then came The Modern Technique, and most subscribe to this style of shooting.

I read a few days ago that the stuff taught in the 1970s was out of date and to be avoided. Bill Jordan and at least two other lawmen could react, draw, and shoot accurately at reasonable distances in 1/20 [.020] of a second. This was done from their duty rigs.

Today it's supposedly better to bring the gun to eye level. I believe that the best times are about .75 to 1.75 of a second.

Who do you think would win that gunfight?
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Old January 7, 2011, 01:33 AM   #16
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I still teach point shooting with either hand to 10-12 feet, in addition to various other fast or deliberate shooting exercises to 25 yards. I also try to get them over on the 50 yard line for a magazine or so, 1-2 times a year.
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Old January 7, 2011, 03:53 AM   #17
Brit
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Sarge,

Sounds like a good mix to me.

Teaching a person to stay alive can be very frustrating, especially when the first question is "What time do we get out of here?"
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Old January 7, 2011, 06:26 AM   #18
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Quote:
I certainly will not be shooting anyone in public across a kitchen aiming for their eye socket
+1, unless there's an eye planted right in the middle of their chest.

Sight shooting... good. Point shooting... good as well, and more likely to be the skill exercised in a SD situation.
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Old January 7, 2011, 08:57 AM   #19
aarondhgraham
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I practice point shooting,,,
For one main reason,,,

Why not?

Quote:
The main objection might be that your practice time would be more profitably spent else where.

imho that would be practicing aimed shots.
Perhaps I should have said I practice point shooting as well as aimed shooting,,,
Why limit yourself to only one shooting technique.

And that's what I do,,,
My carry gun is a Model 36,,,
I recently purchased a Model 34 in .22 LR.

The lower cost of .22 LR ammo allows for more practice,,,
I can afford to shoot hundreds of rounds to add point shooting to my skill set,,,
Then I shoot a box of .38 Special to validate the practice I just put in with the Model 34.

If some other shooter thinks it's a waste of time,,,
Again I say that they can do what they like,,,
I will practice shooting as I always do,,,
A mix of point and aimed fire.

Aarond
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Old January 7, 2011, 09:19 AM   #20
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Quote:
Teaching a person to stay alive can be very frustrating, especially when the first question is "What time do we get out of here?
The best post in the entire thread.

P.S.

I teach and practice both.
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Old January 7, 2011, 01:07 PM   #21
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Re Spacecoast

Quote:
Quote:
I certainly will not be shooting anyone in public across a kitchen aiming for their eye socket

+1, unless there's an eye planted right in the middle of their chest.

Sight shooting... good. Point shooting... good as well, and more likely to be the skill exercised in a SD situation
OK, first, let me expand on my thought pattern.

Your pistol is your Rifle/Shotgun/Pistol, in essence, it might have to be utilized, where one of the other hand held weapons would be a better pick, but all you have (in my case, a Glock 19) in a case of mistaken identity, a person rushes at you, screaming, he thinks you are some one else, or he is just plain nuts!

Same difference to you, BIG KNIFE!! Best solution, at 5 yds, 8 pellet double O middle of chest! No shotgun available? Flood chest with 127g Ranger T, if pistol in hands already? 1.5 seconds, same 8 holes.

Now to explain the eye socket shot (you are now supplementing the Glock 19, for your M4) measure your eye socket (do not poke your self in the eye!) about 2", if you can see the eye socket of an individual, they are facing you, yes? What bone structure is blocking your shot? None.
Basically any pistol calibre will work, with one shot? A true statement? OK it's my pen, yes say I.

Now your turn to ask a question, why would I want to do that? You are not a Cop called out to a domestic. True, but you should have many skills in your basket, the just in case basket. The skills I say you should have, might need, and again it is my POST! All of these skills have been needed by people all over America, sometime!

Close precise, medium rapid!! and LOOOONG Distance, 100 yds plus. So why not have these skills in your "if required basket" they never are wasted.

I have monitored classes, the Police Firearms Instructors I was monitoring, on many occasions, a lot of times used, and still do, shoot the dot's, at 4/5/6/7 yd, in their lesson plan, so many of the students hated it! Why? because they were 4 to 6" off the mark! (I was a board member of IALEFI for 20 years, hence the monitoring)

That is not acceptable. For whatever the purpose of doing that was, it is a maybe skill, never a wasted skill.

Last edited by Brit; January 7, 2011 at 01:12 PM.
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Old January 7, 2011, 06:09 PM   #22
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Coming from a auto racing background ( sports car road racing mostly ) I now see a parallel with gun instructors. Some racing instructors hammer over and over that the student must make the prefect line through every corner. Sure this might be OK when there isn't any traffic, but when traffic is thrown into the mix the " Line " shrinks to relative unimportance. Getting around traffic, a spinning car or sometimes taking a defensive line becomes more important.

Yes, one must know the best conditions way to perform a task, however knowing how to shoot in non perfect, non standard ways may come in handy. Lately I've been shooing off hand, one hand, leaning against the stall , crouching down to a 4 ft eye level and so on.

Since PD ( and racing ) situations are dynamic, having a broad range of middling skills is going to far better than one skill that is perfect.
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Old January 7, 2011, 06:30 PM   #23
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Needed by everyone

My experience only, point shooting is an absolute for self defense. You are in a position where you failed awareness and must react with speed from any position and positions where you can't see your firearm, forget the sights. On your back, running or knocked on your back, able only to bring your firearm into play. Aimed shooting and proper grip, stance etc is sometimes a luxury and should be practiced but both have their place and in lots of situations point shooting is a must. I practiced for years with a 9shot revolver with the sights removed and it worked for me.
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Old January 7, 2011, 08:50 PM   #24
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Point shooting and sighting in have their place.If im shooting over 15 yards and/or need pinpoint accuracy,then i use my sights.But in a narrow hallway,or if surrounded,both the carry guns are coming out and im going to be fast,with pointing.Practice is everything.
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Old January 7, 2011, 09:33 PM   #25
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I had no idea Max Payne was a member of this forum.
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