pistole

birdog4 · February 13, 2002, 07:02 AM

Hello I recently came across a small handgun I can't identify. Need some help
3 1/4 inch barrel
6 inches overall length
4 inches high
non-adjustable sights
combination safety and slide holdback
walnut scales-checkered
stamp at barrel end of slide is SP
stamp on the slide reads
CAL 7.65 AutomaticPistol"MARL
SUR - fire
FEU-safe
What the heck is this?
Thanks bruce

Harley Nolden · February 13, 2002, 02:02 PM

Do You have a photo?

HJN

birdog4 · February 13, 2002, 02:21 PM

No sir. No photo capabilities. It does resemble a hammerless Beretta in profile. Thank you

Harley Nolden · February 13, 2002, 04:58 PM

If the lettering is dificult to read. Take a #2 graphite pencil and color over the letters. This will bring up the lettering and you may be able to determine more clearly what is stamped on the pistol.

Does it look anything like the phot attached?

HJN

birdog4 · February 13, 2002, 06:57 PM

Yes , the photo is similar, especially the slide. The photo is what I would say is a smaller version of this piece.

Harley Nolden · February 14, 2002, 05:59 AM

The gun shown is a Czechoslovakian Marz Pistol. Taking the Marl, I could not locate any such pistol. That's why I ask to color the markings with a #2 Graphite pencil.

The attached photo is the only one I can locate in 7.65, however, that doesn't mean that the 1st gun was not made it 7.65mm.

HJN

birdog4 · February 14, 2002, 06:44 AM

Thanks Harley. The safe stampings had me wondering. Is that Czech writing for "safe" and "fire"?

johnwill · February 14, 2002, 08:15 PM

No wonder I couldn't find it Harley, it's MARS, not MARZ.

I suspect the slide says

MARS 7.65mm
KOHOUT & SPOL KDYNE

There's a picture of it in "Know your Czech Handguns" and Zhuk's great book, the Illustrated Encyclopedia of Handguns". Here's the one from Zhuk which sounds like your gun.

James K · February 14, 2002, 08:59 PM

"FEU" and "SUR" are French for Fire and Safe respectively. Apparently the maker felt that those terms would be better for the international market than the Czech words. "SPOL" is the abbreviation of the Czech word for Company. Kdyne is in the southern part of the Czech Republic near the German border.

Jim

birdog4 · February 14, 2002, 10:40 PM

I did the pencil trick and the stamping is definately
CAL7.65AUTOMATIC PISTOL'MARL
below that is a T and a E
The picture displayed is similar, the slide is identical except the barrel protrudes only about a sixteenth of an inch.
The decocker/safety is in front of the grips(above the trigger.)
The grips have parallel sides. The left grip has a inlet at the bottom rear and there are two threaded holes in the frame(layard ring?)
The frame extends about an inch in front of the trigger guard rather than ending rather abruptly like the one in the picture.
Would there be proof marks inside the slide or frame that would help in idetifying this? Thanks fellas!

James K · February 15, 2002, 01:49 PM

Hi, Birddog4,

I think we have gotten off on too many tangents; let's start again.

Does the pistol have an outside hammer?

If it does, is the pistol double or single action? (With the hammer down, can it be fired by pulling the trigger or does the hammer have to be cocked first?)

You say the safety/decocker is above the trigger. Is it a decocker (does it lower the hammer) or just a safety?

If it is a safety, does it pivot forward and up to safe and down and back to fire? Does it have a hook to lock the slide back?

Are there any markings on the grips?

Are there any markings (proof marks) on the barrel or on the slide adjacent to the barrel. If so, can you describe them?
(They may look like an oval with E/L/G inside, or a crown, or a shield or some other mark.) Is there a mark with a spread eagle with a swastika and "WaA" and a number underneath?

I can't find any name "MARL" or any that begin with "MARL" (except Marlin, and I think we can rule out that company).

Jim

johnwill · February 15, 2002, 03:38 PM

I also can't find any company or gun name of MARL, so if that's really what's on the gun, maybe it's one of a kind!

I really think an effort to post a picture is going to be required...

birdog4 · February 15, 2002, 10:23 PM

OK, I did some more homework on thus gun.
No exposed hammer.
I mislabeled one piece. Not a decocking lever. It is a slide release. sorry.
When the safety/slide release is forward, the gun is on safe. push to the rear, ready to fire.
No markings on the grips, only checkering.
I haven't figured out how to get the sslide off yet. Does have a 3 digit number on underside of the slide at the rear. same number on magazine well under thgrips. Also same number on barrel.
cleaned up the magazine with polish and found a name scratched into it.
Lt. xx xxxxx
How do I get the slide off??

James K · February 15, 2002, 10:49 PM

I don't know for sure, but try this. Remove the magazine, and make sure the gun is unloaded. (Sorry, but I have to say that.)

Put the safety in the SAFE postion and pull the slide back all the way. The safety should hold the slide back. Then take the end of the barrel that is sticking out and try to turn it (try clockwise first as you look at it from the front, but try both ways).

If it turns about 1/4 of the way around, you may be able to pull the barrel out, or just release the slide and let it and the barrel come off together. Either way, let the slide go forward easy. It should come off the frame to the front.

If that does not work, we will try something else.

Jim

birdog4 · February 16, 2002, 08:10 AM

Jim , that got it apart. Can't find any proofmarks anywhere. Did find the 3 digit number on the safety lever and the trigger spring.
Could this be military issue? If so, whose army? Thanks

James K · February 16, 2002, 06:13 PM

I was going by the French safety markings in thinking it might be Belgian or French, but absence of proof marks would seem to rule out those countries.

It could have also been one of the many Spanish pistols sold to the French army in WWI, when they bought anything that would shoot. That could explain the French markings. At that time, Spain had no compulsory proof and most makers never bothered.

There was a Spanish "Mars" pistol, but no "Marl" that I know of.

Is the slide polished down or badly rusted so that there might have been some more to the marking that is now missing?

Jim

birdog4 · February 16, 2002, 07:44 PM

Jim
I cleaned the slide off better and found SPA on the barrel end of the slide, so it probably is Spanish. The stamping starts to fade with the A. Can't tell if there are more letters but the spacing indicates poor stamping. Same with the stamping on the side of the slide.
Thanks for all the help. Guess I need to get a scanner. bruce

February 13, 2002, 07:02 AM	#1
birdog4 Member Join Date: December 6, 2000 Posts: 27	pistole Hello I recently came across a small handgun I can't identify. Need some help 3 1/4 inch barrel 6 inches overall length 4 inches high non-adjustable sights combination safety and slide holdback walnut scales-checkered stamp at barrel end of slide is SP stamp on the slide reads CAL 7.65 AutomaticPistol"MARL SUR - fire FEU-safe What the heck is this? Thanks bruce __________________ grouse hunting is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that.

February 13, 2002, 02:21 PM	#3
birdog4 Member Join Date: December 6, 2000 Posts: 27	No sir. No photo capabilities. It does resemble a hammerless Beretta in profile. Thank you __________________ grouse hunting is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that.

February 13, 2002, 06:57 PM	#5
birdog4 Member Join Date: December 6, 2000 Posts: 27	Yes , the photo is similar, especially the slide. The photo is what I would say is a smaller version of this piece. __________________ grouse hunting is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that.

February 14, 2002, 06:44 AM	#7
birdog4 Member Join Date: December 6, 2000 Posts: 27	Thanks Harley. The safe stampings had me wondering. Is that Czech writing for "safe" and "fire"? __________________ grouse hunting is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that.

February 14, 2002, 10:40 PM	#10
birdog4 Member Join Date: December 6, 2000 Posts: 27	I did the pencil trick and the stamping is definately CAL7.65AUTOMATIC PISTOL'MARL below that is a T and a E The picture displayed is similar, the slide is identical except the barrel protrudes only about a sixteenth of an inch. The decocker/safety is in front of the grips(above the trigger.) The grips have parallel sides. The left grip has a inlet at the bottom rear and there are two threaded holes in the frame(layard ring?) The frame extends about an inch in front of the trigger guard rather than ending rather abruptly like the one in the picture. Would there be proof marks inside the slide or frame that would help in idetifying this? Thanks fellas! __________________ grouse hunting is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that.

February 13, 2002, 02:02 PM	#2
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	Do You have a photo? HJN

February 13, 2002, 04:58 PM	#4
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	If the lettering is dificult to read. Take a #2 graphite pencil and color over the letters. This will bring up the lettering and you may be able to determine more clearly what is stamped on the pistol. Does it look anything like the phot attached? HJN

February 14, 2002, 05:59 AM	#6
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	The gun shown is a Czechoslovakian Marz Pistol. Taking the Marl, I could not locate any such pistol. That's why I ask to color the markings with a #2 Graphite pencil. The attached photo is the only one I can locate in 7.65, however, that doesn't mean that the 1st gun was not made it 7.65mm. HJN

February 14, 2002, 08:15 PM	#8
johnwill Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: PA Posts: 3,451	No wonder I couldn't find it Harley, it's MARS, not MARZ. I suspect the slide says MARS 7.65mm KOHOUT & SPOL KDYNE There's a picture of it in "Know your Czech Handguns" and Zhuk's great book, the Illustrated Encyclopedia of Handguns". Here's the one from Zhuk which sounds like your gun.

February 14, 2002, 08:59 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"FEU" and "SUR" are French for Fire and Safe respectively. Apparently the maker felt that those terms would be better for the international market than the Czech words. "SPOL" is the abbreviation of the Czech word for Company. Kdyne is in the southern part of the Czech Republic near the German border. Jim

February 15, 2002, 01:49 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Birddog4, I think we have gotten off on too many tangents; let's start again. Does the pistol have an outside hammer? If it does, is the pistol double or single action? (With the hammer down, can it be fired by pulling the trigger or does the hammer have to be cocked first?) You say the safety/decocker is above the trigger. Is it a decocker (does it lower the hammer) or just a safety? If it is a safety, does it pivot forward and up to safe and down and back to fire? Does it have a hook to lock the slide back? Are there any markings on the grips? Are there any markings (proof marks) on the barrel or on the slide adjacent to the barrel. If so, can you describe them? (They may look like an oval with E/L/G inside, or a crown, or a shield or some other mark.) Is there a mark with a spread eagle with a swastika and "WaA" and a number underneath? I can't find any name "MARL" or any that begin with "MARL" (except Marlin, and I think we can rule out that company). Jim

February 15, 2002, 03:38 PM	#12
johnwill Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: PA Posts: 3,451	I also can't find any company or gun name of MARL, so if that's really what's on the gun, maybe it's one of a kind! I really think an effort to post a picture is going to be required...

February 15, 2002, 10:23 PM	#13
birdog4 Member Join Date: December 6, 2000 Posts: 27	OK, I did some more homework on thus gun. No exposed hammer. I mislabeled one piece. Not a decocking lever. It is a slide release. sorry. When the safety/slide release is forward, the gun is on safe. push to the rear, ready to fire. No markings on the grips, only checkering. I haven't figured out how to get the sslide off yet. Does have a 3 digit number on underside of the slide at the rear. same number on magazine well under thgrips. Also same number on barrel. cleaned up the magazine with polish and found a name scratched into it. Lt. xx xxxxx How do I get the slide off?? __________________ grouse hunting is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that.

February 15, 2002, 10:49 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I don't know for sure, but try this. Remove the magazine, and make sure the gun is unloaded. (Sorry, but I have to say that.) Put the safety in the SAFE postion and pull the slide back all the way. The safety should hold the slide back. Then take the end of the barrel that is sticking out and try to turn it (try clockwise first as you look at it from the front, but try both ways). If it turns about 1/4 of the way around, you may be able to pull the barrel out, or just release the slide and let it and the barrel come off together. Either way, let the slide go forward easy. It should come off the frame to the front. If that does not work, we will try something else. Jim

February 16, 2002, 08:10 AM	#15
birdog4 Member Join Date: December 6, 2000 Posts: 27	Jim , that got it apart. Can't find any proofmarks anywhere. Did find the 3 digit number on the safety lever and the trigger spring. Could this be military issue? If so, whose army? Thanks __________________ grouse hunting is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that.

February 16, 2002, 06:13 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I was going by the French safety markings in thinking it might be Belgian or French, but absence of proof marks would seem to rule out those countries. It could have also been one of the many Spanish pistols sold to the French army in WWI, when they bought anything that would shoot. That could explain the French markings. At that time, Spain had no compulsory proof and most makers never bothered. There was a Spanish "Mars" pistol, but no "Marl" that I know of. Is the slide polished down or badly rusted so that there might have been some more to the marking that is now missing? Jim

February 16, 2002, 07:44 PM	#17
birdog4 Member Join Date: December 6, 2000 Posts: 27	Jim I cleaned the slide off better and found SPA on the barrel end of the slide, so it probably is Spanish. The stamping starts to fade with the A. Can't tell if there are more letters but the spacing indicates poor stamping. Same with the stamping on the side of the slide. Thanks for all the help. Guess I need to get a scanner. bruce __________________ grouse hunting is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that.