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Old March 20, 2015, 11:10 PM   #76
Limnophile
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Why is that? Doesn't the 40 have more punch than the 9?
I thought the reason the 40 was developed in the first place was due to the failure or the 9 during that shootout in the 80's.
Yes, the .40 S&W arose due to failure of the .38 Special and 9 Luger in the '86 Miami Shootout. The FBI adopted military gelatin testing of ammunition and accepted the expert finding that penetration was the most important terminal ballistics characteristic of a handgun round. The 10 Auto was adopted by the FBI because of excellent penetration, but recoil proved too much so the .40 S&W was developed as a 10 Auto light that was able to be used in frames designed for the 9 Luger, thus increasing capacity.

The bigger 0.400-inch bullet had an edge on penetration and expansion reliability on 0.355-inch bullets, until JHP designers, guided by FBI ammo testing criteria, improved 9 Luger designs. Now that reliable 9 Luger JHP rounds are available, in the absence of evidence that .40- or .45-caliber JHPs result in better results, the agency has concluded that the 9 Luger gives essentially identical results with the added benefits of less recoil (resulting in better accuracy and faster follow-up shots), fewer misses (they claim 70-80% of shots fired during a LE gunfight miss), higher ammo capacity, more affordable ammo, and lower chamber pressures (resulting in guns lasting longer).

I found the FBI Academy memo from May 2014 announcing the change and reasons for it and copied it in the thread about the .40 S&W disappearing.

Ironically, the US Army is dissatisfied with 9 NATO, because it often takes multiple hits to put an illegal combatant down. They may well switch to .40 S&W or back to .45 Auto, but The Hague Convention generally restricts them to using FMJs, while premium 9 Lugers will reliably expand to about 0.6 inches, which yields a cross-sectional area 76% greater than that of the venerable .45 Auto.
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Old March 21, 2015, 12:12 AM   #77
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the 40 doesnt have any more "stopping power" than the 9. The FBI needed an excuse to cover their disaster.
In the late '80s/early '90s the 10 Auto, then .40 S&W were better bad-guy stoppers than the 9 Luger, because JHPs didn't reliably expand.

Today, premium JHPs for all service calibers afford adequate penetration and reliable expansion. In the early '90s the FBI compared wound channel volume -- expanded cross-sectional area multiplied by penetration depth. Now they resort to saying that trauma surgeons and pathologists, due to the elasticity of living tissue, cannot tell the difference between wounds caused by any handgun of any service caliber until the bullet is recovered; thus, the wounds must be no different, as confirmed by no reliable data proving otherwise. Of course, there are no such reliable data differentiating these calibers because it is illegal and immoral to shoot people in a replicable way to document the results. I assume that enough FBI agents have participated in IDPA where the benefits of the lower recoil and increased capacity of the 9 Luger are readily realized. Finally, the FBI Academy ran a controlled test where they had agents shoot a qualifications course using identical Glocks, one chambered in .40 S&W, the other in 9 Luger. They found, on average and almost universally, agents scored better, in terms of both accuracy and time, with the 9 Luger.
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Old March 21, 2015, 12:11 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Limnophile
Yes, the .40 S&W arose due to failure of the .38 Special and 9 Luger in the '86 Miami Shootout.
and the shootout would have turned out any different if the agents were all using the 40?

coyotewsm, all im suggesting is dont dismiss a caliber because of percieved "stopping power". The 9mm is not a failure and is still one of the top police, military and defense cartridges today. There are more size options in compact and even pocket pistols in 9mm that would round out your collection giving you the versitality you need for dressing around all conditions. Remember you can still carry your full size when prudent so dont short change your new purchase on a slight change in size unless thats really what you want.
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Old March 21, 2015, 12:56 PM   #79
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Koda94. I still love my SR I don't plan on getting rid of it. The fact is its a little difficult to conceal maybe I just don't know how. I figured if nothing else when I get another I can always carry the SR during the cold months when I can put on more clothes. Which down here I GA isn't very long. As far as caliber I have been leaning toward the 9 just wanted some feed back on it.
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Old March 21, 2015, 01:14 PM   #80
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exactly, you got what I was trying to say. As far as how its also a matter of finding what works for you... it takes time and often a few expensive holsters. Full size, mid size, compact and pocket... and some models are in between. I find the difference concealing a full size vs a mid or compact marginal in hot weather its tee shirts and jeans or even shorts if it doesnt fit in your pocket it still prints. Something like a Sig 938 or Ruger LC9 will fit in a pocket and still carry well in a IWB holster for better comfort depending on the day.... so you have more options is the key, even mid day if situaition warrents you can even switch to pocket carry and leave the belt holster in the car. Options are a good thing.
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Old March 23, 2015, 01:16 AM   #81
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and the shootout would have turned out any different if the agents were all using the 40?
Perhaps. As I recall one of the agents hit the bad guy who did the most damage (with a Ruger Mini 14 I think) early in the fight with a Winchester 9 Luger 115-gr Silver Tip. The bullet stopped a inch short of the bad guy's heart. The wound would have been fatal, but, because it stopped short of destroying a vital organ, the bad guy survived long enough to kill a couple of good guys.

The .40 S&W had not yet been developed, but early JHPs in this caliber penetrated more deeply than the 115-gr ST, which penetrated bare gel only to 10.1 inches, far short of the IWBA's criterion of 12.5 inches and the FBI's minimum of 12.0 inches. Odds are that a round capable of penetrating bare gel another 2 inches would have reached the bad guy's heart, if the bullet placement had been identical. The FBI's current position is that .40 S&W rounds are, on average, shot less accurately than 9 Luger rounds due to the higher recoil of the .40.

Quote:
coyotewsm, all im suggesting is dont dismiss a caliber because of percieved "stopping power". The 9mm is not a failure and is still one of the top police, military and defense cartridges today. There are more size options in compact and even pocket pistols in 9mm that would round out your collection giving you the versitality you need for dressing around all conditions. Remember you can still carry your full size when prudent so dont short change your new purchase on a slight change in size unless thats really what you want.
Either you misread the message I conveyed, or I botched the message horribly. After the Miami shootout in the late '80s the FBI deemed the 9 Luger round used, the 115-gr ST, as a failure. There were 9 Luger rounds that met the FBI gel test standards developed in the aftermath of the shootout. But, 10 Auto rounds performed better in terms of deeper penetration and likely more reliable expansion. Because of recoil and capacity concerns the .40 S&W was developed, which for decades was the preferred caliber of the agency.

Last year the FBI announced it was moving back to 9 Luger, because advances in JHP design have made the caliber essentially as effective in terms of penetration and expansion as the .40 S&W and .45 Auto, and more effective in terms of accuracy and speed, due to reduced recoil, and in terms of mag capacity. As a further bonus, 9 Luger ammo is cheaper and lower pressures take longer to wear out guns.

Based on the FBI's science-based policy, I recommend that the OP serious consider or even limit his search to pistols chambered in 9 Luger. The primary reasons for owning other calibers are fun, reducing recoil in a subcompact package, and having a diversity of choices giving you an edge in an ammo shortage.
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Old March 23, 2015, 12:58 PM   #82
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Limnophile. The caliber isnt really the issue. The whole reason I'm thinking of buying another gun is for the size to have something a little easier to carry. With that being said the reason I was thinking of the 9 was to keep recoil down in a smaller gun.
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Old March 23, 2015, 06:47 PM   #83
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^You are thinking like a manager at the FBI Academy's training unit then, which, because they are using sound judgment, is good.
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Old March 23, 2015, 07:16 PM   #84
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The 9 does just fine for SD situations; easy to control, faster follow up...and so many options. I'm waiting for my PPS to arrive in the shops.

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Old March 23, 2015, 08:35 PM   #85
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I was thinking about going with the SR9c which would make sense since it practically the same thing I have now just shorter. And you can get a clip extension so you can still have the whole 15+1. The other contender which I think will win out is the shield 9mm. I like it cause it feels real good in my hand and because the frame is substantially thinner than a lot of other compacts, which would greatly aid in concealment.
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