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Old February 2, 2011, 11:14 PM   #1
jdwilson0906
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178gr A-Max for deer

I shoot a 300 win mag for deer and have noticed on close range shots (20-75yrd) that it just shoots a small hole straight through and even if it catches a rib it still don't do much damage. I personally do not want the bullet to exit the other side i want all the energy put into the deer i hunt very rough deeply wooded areas were i have had to wait for deer to come out of the valley just so i can get it. So far i've tried core-lokts, sst, hot cor, and nosler. So far pretty much the same result. Will an 178gr A-MAX give the same result as say a 40gr V-MAX on a ground hog?
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Old February 2, 2011, 11:46 PM   #2
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At first I was going to tell you to try Remington Core-Lokts, but then I started to laugh. There isn't anything you could use at 20 to 75 yards with a 300 Win Mag that woudn't just go though whatever you were hunting (except maybe a grizzly or moose) The bullets are traveling too fast for them to expand upon inpact. If you insist upon shooting at that range (20 to 75 yards) then use a slower bullet a 30-30, 35 Remington, 270 or even a softpoint 30-06. Keep the 300 Win Mag for those 200 yard and beyond shots. All the bullets you mention will work much better at that range.

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Old February 2, 2011, 11:57 PM   #3
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I think velocity is the problem, not bullet design.

Most bullets have a certain velocity that they work the best at. I am not sure of the Amax at that high of a velocity, but it will probably be similiar to the others. The Amax is designed for thin skinned game (and match performance), not immediate expansion like the V-max.

I have heard of others having that same problem, the bullet going too fast to expand reliably, and a 300 magnum at that short of a distance is probably going to do that with almost any bullet.

You may have to try some reduced recoil rounds or download some (if you handload) to get any bullet to work properly at that range. You could also try some round nose or flat nose bullets to get more energy transfer.
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Old February 3, 2011, 12:10 AM   #4
jdwilson0906
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I forgot to mention i go from one extreme to another. Most the time im in the deep woods but if not, im 150 miles north in crop fields that 600 yard shots are very possible. that is one reason for trying a-max so i could have good long range performance and good devastation at close range. what would loading like a 140gr and really put a fire behind it do at close range?
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Old February 3, 2011, 12:48 AM   #5
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There is no magic bullet out there for what you are trying to do. You are talking 1000+ fps difference from short to long range.

The lighter weight .308 bullets are more for varmints than larger game. They might work for the short shots, but probably won't penetrate at the slower velocities of a long range shot. I don't think there is a bullet out there that will work well at such different velocities.

I would keep two different sets of ammo, each for different ranges. Sight in the gun for the long range ammo, and learn the hold over (under) for the short distance ammo.
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Old February 3, 2011, 10:24 AM   #6
reloader28
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Get a 30/30 for the close stuff. Leave that 300 at home until you need the range.

Other than loading to the minimum, there is nothing you can do to improve the performance of a 300mag at less then 200yds. Hence the term magnum.
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Old February 3, 2011, 04:43 PM   #7
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dwilson0906

W E L C O M E - T O - T F L ! ! !

If you can consistently put a bullet in a 12 inch target at 600 yards at the rifle range, then you may be OK to shoot game at 600 yards. However, field conditions are not ideal for long range shooting, even from a solid field rest.

If you sight in your 300WM at 300 yards, you will be 3 feet low at 500yd and 6 feet low at 600 yd. If the deer is at 575 yd, and you hold for 600 yd, you will be 12 inches high. That is not including wind drift, which can blow the bullet way off.

So! The game is accurately divining distance and wind, provided you know your weapons trajectory, and you possess the skill to shoot that far. Even if you can shoot that far accurately, there are so many field variables, that it would be unethical to shoot at game that far.

As for the bullet, the A-max is designed for target only, and would not mushroom at all, at any range. A little hole in, a little hole out with minimal tissue damage. Again unethical.
Quote:
I stand corrected after reading the post below on Hornady recommendations. After reading up on the A-max, it has an extremely thin but precise copper jacket, which adds to it's accuracy, but disintegrates upon impact.
The 140 V-max with "fire behind it" at close range would be like throwing hand grenades (little entry hole, huge exit wound, lots of inedible meat shock). If you like your meat with spoiled blood shock, lead and copper and bone fragments - - eeeeeeeeuuuuuuuuuuuuuuwwwwwwwwwww ucky.

If anything would do well, for short distances, try the 300WM youth loads. Their velocities will do very well with 30-30 type bullets.
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Old February 3, 2011, 05:02 PM   #8
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That is true- A-max bullets are not designed for hunting purposes. I dont know if it still does or not but the boxes use to state this or you can call or email them and they will tell you the same. I personally like the SST's myself but alot of good quality bullets should work fine.
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Old February 3, 2011, 05:16 PM   #9
dawico
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Sorry for the misinformation there. I stand corrected. From the Hornady website:

Product Lines
A-MAX® NOW featuring AMP™ bullet jackets!
Designed by match shooters for match shooters. With an ultra-low drag tip, our A-Max match bullets feature an aerodynamic secant ogive that delivers flat trajectories with excellent uniformity and concentricity. Find out more...

•Rapid, explosive expansion with limited penetration.
•Recommended muzzle velocity range: 2000+ fps.
•These bullets are not recommended for hunting medium and large game.
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Old February 3, 2011, 05:32 PM   #10
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I have to argue the ballistic data that a 300 win mag. will have 3 foot drop at 500 yds. when sighted in at 300 yds.. That is not acurate exterior ballistic data for a 165 gr. SP or a 180 gr. SP from a 300 WM. According to Speer's exterior ballistic tables for B.C. of .390 to .420, which is a low ball average for a .308 bullet of 165 gr to 180 gr. and sighted in at 300 yds. and with an average MV of 3200 fps, which is a little on the slow side if hand loading, the bullet will only drop 22.7" to as much as 24.8" at 500 yds. With hand loaded ammunition producing some what higher MV bullet drop at 500 yds. can be as little as 20 inches with little effort. If the hunter is wanting to achieve a longer shot, and try to reduce the degree of penetration on close up shots, a 150 gr. BTSP might reduce penetration significantly. I shoot a 7mm rem. mag. hand loaded with a 130 gr. BT at 3500 fps and it didn't go through and through on two a mule at less than 100 yds. However, my Son's and I have killed other deer, and elk as well, at distances much farther than that in which the same bullet did pass completely through. It should be considered that circumstances effecting penetration are all variable, and based on shot placement, bullet weight/type, MV, and other factors and can't be summed up to an absolute. Maybe try a hand loaded 130 gr. SPBT. It should produce a pretty good long range trajectory, and a little quicker expansion at the high velocities of 3500 fps or so it's capable of delivering.
Good luck and happy hunting!
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Old February 3, 2011, 05:51 PM   #11
Shoney
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3200 fps with a 180 gr bullet out of a 300WM:barf:
Get into the real world, accuracy loads with 180 gr bullets are around 2900 fps, I've been there.
Although I did round out data, not in exact inches, I stand by my post.

Lighter bullets of similar construction tend to have worse ballistics after 300-400 yards and much greater wind drift.
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Old February 4, 2011, 02:43 PM   #12
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7mm mag

just thought i would add this, i've been loading my 7 mag using 58 gr imr 4831 with speer 160 gr boat tail bullets , and between 60 to 300 yds i don't have trouble with shoot through. when the bullet hits its redused to shrapnal. i've had good luck with this. hit the heart, its gone, lungs also. hit the neck its done and doesn't exit most of the time.
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Old February 5, 2011, 11:48 AM   #13
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I think this just points out that there is no magic bullet as dawico points out. We each have our own style of hunting. Some from tree stands, some from blinds, some still hunting and some from stalking. Some in the deep woods and some from accross bean fields.

Short range shots are more accurate with flat based bullets while long range shots (200 yards and beyond) are more accurate with boat tail bullets.

20 to 75 yard shots with a 300 Win Mag needs a different type of bullet than a shot at 300 yards or beyond. For short range shots the Hornady 178-180 grain RN #3075 would give much better results loaded to about 2,700 FPS. At longer distances posible the 178-180 grain Hornady SST #30702 would give excelent results loaded to 2,900 FPS.

Me, I don't like to walk 300 or 400 yards to recover a deer so I use a Marlin 336C and a 180 grain 35 remington bullet which is good to 150 yards for times I need more range I use a Remington 7600 with a 150 grain SP in 30-06.

Before you start, you should know how you are going to hunt and take the right bullet and rifle with.

Jim
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Old February 5, 2011, 12:05 PM   #14
Jim Watson
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I am not a hunter so will you explain to me the manner in which a bullet is going too fast to expand?

Is this like the cop who said a .44 magnum was no good for self defense because it did not stay in the crook long enough to hurt him? He cited the case in which a magnum bullet shot clear through a crook and, slowed to effective velocity by the passage, killed a neighbor. The crook was wounded but still active.
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Old February 5, 2011, 12:30 PM   #15
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Hydrostatic shock aside; bullets are designed for certain purposes. There's a post on where a guy was shooting a high velocity .243 round at mountain goats or some such critter at 300 + feet. And taking 3-4 shots to kill it, even when hitting in the heart/lung area. He said that when recovered the first bullets had pancaked and slid around the skin instead of going through the animal. When he slowed the rounds down they penetrated just fine and did their job. I wasn't there, but if he photoshopped those pics he was pretty good.



I don't see the point in using a 300 win mag for shots that close. Magnum rounds just weren't made for that kinda thing. It'd be like using a sledge hammer to hang a picture. If you just need to use overkill at that close of a range, might want to invest in a 45-70 for the close shots and save the cannon for your long range shots.
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Old February 5, 2011, 12:33 PM   #16
Jim243
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Jim, That is about it.

Since we can not paste copyright info here, please go to this link, it will help explain.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bullets_beginners.htm

Jim


Hunting bullets need to slow to between 1,800 to 2,400 FPS to expand properly based on their design.
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Old February 6, 2011, 03:35 PM   #17
5R milspec
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why not try a 208gn A-mx or even a 210gn Berger.both fly right with one another useing the same load data.for me i was able to take a doe last year.shot was around 75-100 yards.I was useing a 208gn A-max pushing it just over 2800 fps.yeap the bullet went right through her.but hey she fell like a bag of sand.but after seeing the results I would still hunt with an A-max even out to say 600 or so yards.the weight and poly tip showed me that the bullet worked just like a Nosler BT.but will even add that all of my hunting friends us an A-max for hunting.and they get the same results as I have.

just thought of something.the newer A-max has the same newer jacket as the new line of match bullets that Hornady has come out with.and I still have the old style.but still think that the A-max will be a hunting bullet for me.thats if you are able to get your hands on them.for me I am still trying to get them.( the 208 that is )

one more thing you may want to even try a 190gn Berger VLD.
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