.223 :crimp on bullets with no cannelure and a case capacity question?

Gopher a 45 · April 20, 2000, 02:09 PM

Hey there all,

I got some 52g match hollowpoints from Hornaday but they don't have a cannelure like the 55g FMJs I usually load. I was wondering if I need to go to a lighter crimp on these bullets, and would the crimp I'm using for cannelure bullets create dangerous pressures and/or deform the bullet during crimping? I would just not crimp, but it's a semi-auto, so I kind of have to.

A second question involves case capacity. I've been using RP brass for a while, but I bought a case of PMP ammo to get fresh brass. When I reload it with a charge that doesn't fill the old RP brass, it just about comes up to the top of the PMP case. For the record, I weighed the charges and they are the same. Is it common for case capacities to vary this much between manufacturers? Lastly, since there is no air space in the PMP cases, have I created dangerous pressures again by compressing the load a little when I seat the bullet? Thanks for y'all's help (hey, I'm in Texas)

John

Nukem · April 20, 2000, 04:52 PM

I load Matchkings w/o cannelures all the time. Just back off the crimp die until it's just giving it a very slight squeeze, maybe just a touch of radius on the mouth. If you don't back off the die from the setting you've been using you should get a bulge, try a couple and see.

alan · April 20, 2000, 06:27 PM

Gopher:

Iam not terribly familiar with the .223, but using jacketed bullets, do you really need to crimp in the first place. When I shot high power rifle in competition, using a Garand, I never used any sort of crimp with jacketed bullets.

As for the bullets with a crimping groove, I assume you were roll crimping, without the groove, you could taper crimp, just enough so that bullets did not SET BACK into the case, when feeding. You are using a self loading rifle, I take it.

As to cartridge cases, there can be significant differences in case volume, which usually would show up via weight differences. Thick walled cases are heavier. Usually, military brass will run heaviest, Winchester commercial brass will be lightest, Remington somewhere in between. The other brass you mentioned does not ring a bell with my memory, such as it is these days.

In any event, since the same charge, stands much higher, sounds like a large volume difference. I would back off on charge weights, perhaps 10%,, then work back up. Compression of powder does not necessarily hurt anything, but that would depend on what powder, what caliber and how much compression. With 7.62mm NATO Match ammunition loaded at Lake City, a few rounds that I pulled down contained about 41.5 grains of what looked like 4895, and it was a compressed load. It shot, in bolt rifles, without problems.

DAL · April 20, 2000, 06:36 PM

I seem to remember the info. my Redding die set came with saying to NEVER use a crimp on a bullet without a cannelure. My die set is .30-06, so I'm not sure if this would apply to the .223, but my guess is it would.
DAL

------------------
Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.
GOA, JPFO, PPFC, CSSA, LP, NRA

MFH · April 20, 2000, 07:14 PM

I've been using a Lee factory crimp die on Horn 52 A-max in 223 for service rifle use. Other than having to perform another procedure, it eliminates the crimp concern.

MFH

MADISON · April 22, 2000, 06:30 PM

My choice is a TAPER CRIMP DIE but, you may want a LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE.

Yes, they do make rifle taper crimp dies, if you look around.

Gopher a 45 · April 22, 2000, 10:01 PM

Hey all,

Postscript. I popped the primers on the PMP brass (it's South African stuff I bought for blasting ammo) and it looks as if it does have an extra-thick case head. I guess that's good for case longevity. Tried some reloads of the PMP stuff today and they worked well. I'm actually using a 550B with the .223 three-die set, so I have a separate crimp station (taper crimp?). After loading a couple of dummies with the 52 grainers with and without crimp, I think I don't need a crimp at all on these as the fit is snug even w/o a crimp so bullet movement shouldn't be a problem. Just to see the effect of the crimp I was using on the 55 grainers, I pulled a couple of the 52 grainers I crimped with the old inertia puller.

Bam! Bam! Bam! Bam! Bam! BAM!! Bam! Bam! BAM! BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM!!!!

52 grains doesn't have much inertia, but it finally came out. Bullets not bulged, but indented all the way from the where the case mouth contacts to the end of the bullet. Hmmm. The moral is that you don't need to crimp no-canellure bullets! I did fire a couple of the crimped 52 grainers and accuracy was okay, but then again it was only at 100 yds.

alan · April 24, 2000, 11:07 PM

Gopher:

You may have discovered that due to coefficient of friction, using a proper expander ball, that metal to metal friction between jacketed bullet and cartridge case is sufficient to hold without a crimp. If you find you really need any, try the taper crimp, in that "extra" tapped hole. Do not over crimp, as this will sometimes actually swage down even a jacketed bullet. sometimes "crush" a bullet.

April 20, 2000, 02:09 PM	#1
Gopher a 45 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2000 Posts: 329	Hey there all, I got some 52g match hollowpoints from Hornaday but they don't have a cannelure like the 55g FMJs I usually load. I was wondering if I need to go to a lighter crimp on these bullets, and would the crimp I'm using for cannelure bullets create dangerous pressures and/or deform the bullet during crimping? I would just not crimp, but it's a semi-auto, so I kind of have to. A second question involves case capacity. I've been using RP brass for a while, but I bought a case of PMP ammo to get fresh brass. When I reload it with a charge that doesn't fill the old RP brass, it just about comes up to the top of the PMP case. For the record, I weighed the charges and they are the same. Is it common for case capacities to vary this much between manufacturers? Lastly, since there is no air space in the PMP cases, have I created dangerous pressures again by compressing the load a little when I seat the bullet? Thanks for y'all's help (hey, I'm in Texas) John

April 20, 2000, 04:52 PM	#2
Nukem Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Posts: 709	I load Matchkings w/o cannelures all the time. Just back off the crimp die until it's just giving it a very slight squeeze, maybe just a touch of radius on the mouth. If you don't back off the die from the setting you've been using you should get a bulge, try a couple and see.

April 20, 2000, 06:27 PM	#3
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Gopher: Iam not terribly familiar with the .223, but using jacketed bullets, do you really need to crimp in the first place. When I shot high power rifle in competition, using a Garand, I never used any sort of crimp with jacketed bullets. As for the bullets with a crimping groove, I assume you were roll crimping, without the groove, you could taper crimp, just enough so that bullets did not SET BACK into the case, when feeding. You are using a self loading rifle, I take it. As to cartridge cases, there can be significant differences in case volume, which usually would show up via weight differences. Thick walled cases are heavier. Usually, military brass will run heaviest, Winchester commercial brass will be lightest, Remington somewhere in between. The other brass you mentioned does not ring a bell with my memory, such as it is these days. In any event, since the same charge, stands much higher, sounds like a large volume difference. I would back off on charge weights, perhaps 10%,, then work back up. Compression of powder does not necessarily hurt anything, but that would depend on what powder, what caliber and how much compression. With 7.62mm NATO Match ammunition loaded at Lake City, a few rounds that I pulled down contained about 41.5 grains of what looked like 4895, and it was a compressed load. It shot, in bolt rifles, without problems.

April 20, 2000, 06:36 PM	#4
DAL Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1999 Location: Colorado Springs, CO, USA Posts: 653	I seem to remember the info. my Redding die set came with saying to NEVER use a crimp on a bullet without a cannelure. My die set is .30-06, so I'm not sure if this would apply to the .223, but my guess is it would. DAL ------------------ Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school. GOA, JPFO, PPFC, CSSA, LP, NRA

April 20, 2000, 07:14 PM	#5
MFH Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2000 Posts: 122	I've been using a Lee factory crimp die on Horn 52 A-max in 223 for service rifle use. Other than having to perform another procedure, it eliminates the crimp concern. MFH

April 22, 2000, 06:30 PM	#6
MADISON Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2000 Location: Roanoke, Virginia Posts: 2,678	My choice is a TAPER CRIMP DIE but, you may want a LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE. Yes, they do make rifle taper crimp dies, if you look around.

April 22, 2000, 10:01 PM	#7
Gopher a 45 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2000 Posts: 329	Hey all, Postscript. I popped the primers on the PMP brass (it's South African stuff I bought for blasting ammo) and it looks as if it does have an extra-thick case head. I guess that's good for case longevity. Tried some reloads of the PMP stuff today and they worked well. I'm actually using a 550B with the .223 three-die set, so I have a separate crimp station (taper crimp?). After loading a couple of dummies with the 52 grainers with and without crimp, I think I don't need a crimp at all on these as the fit is snug even w/o a crimp so bullet movement shouldn't be a problem. Just to see the effect of the crimp I was using on the 55 grainers, I pulled a couple of the 52 grainers I crimped with the old inertia puller. Bam! Bam! Bam! Bam! Bam! BAM!! Bam! Bam! BAM! BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM!!!! 52 grains doesn't have much inertia, but it finally came out. Bullets not bulged, but indented all the way from the where the case mouth contacts to the end of the bullet. Hmmm. The moral is that you don't need to crimp no-canellure bullets! I did fire a couple of the crimped 52 grainers and accuracy was okay, but then again it was only at 100 yds.

April 24, 2000, 11:07 PM	#8
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Gopher: You may have discovered that due to coefficient of friction, using a proper expander ball, that metal to metal friction between jacketed bullet and cartridge case is sufficient to hold without a crimp. If you find you really need any, try the taper crimp, in that "extra" tapped hole. Do not over crimp, as this will sometimes actually swage down even a jacketed bullet. sometimes "crush" a bullet.