40 S&W or 9mm for SMG?

**4V50 Gary** · July 16, 1999, 11:36 PM

If you were starting a SWAT, opps, Hostage Rescue Team, would you prefer to arm your members with a 9mm MP5 or 40 S&W?

James K · July 17, 1999, 01:52 PM

In theory, the .40 may be better. But, assuming I could get a .40 SMG, I would still take the 9mm. It would be more controllable and more able to put multiple shots into the same area at short range, which is the rationale for an SMG.

Plus, the cost of new guns. And 9mm ammo is cheap; .40 is expensive. Could either of us explain to a city council that knows guns from beans and that is about all, why the difference is worth the cost? And why we need "super powerful bullets" that can destroy whole buildings (remember the anti-gun folks always show up)? And why what is good enough for the Armed Forces isn't good enough for the Blotzville police?

I think I would take the 9mm and spend the money for training to (hopefully) keep the more trigger happy troops from blowing away too many tax-paying citizens.

Jim

Kodiac · July 17, 1999, 02:10 PM

full house 10MM would be choice, or .45 Super.

A MP5 is a Shoulder weapon... Recoil and all that? Big Deal.
What if you light up a BG with a vest?
A 9 might not even slow him. .45 or 10 would at least knock him down...
Remember Bank of America?

So between the two options given: .40 cal.

------------------
Every man Dies.
Not Every Man Truely Lives...
FREEDOM!

RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

mguntony · July 18, 1999, 07:31 AM

I agree with Jim, cost factor is very high on the list and can be a project breaker. The higher power of the .40 and the 10MM are understood, but liability can come into view quickly. I use an M16 in 9MM and under 25yds, where most encounters will be, I can put 28 rounds into a 4 inch target on full auto. This takes practice and training but it can easily be done by most shooters. CQB would dictate short bursts of fire and this firearm is very controllable, with hydraulic buffer installed. Ammo cost for training is considerably lower and thus will afford more frequent training. I practice almost weekly and shoot in sub gun matches about ten times each year. The matches portray different encounters and are fun and a challenge to shoot, especially the houses. Just my $.02.

Jeff White · July 18, 1999, 12:54 PM

Are there any subguns available in .40 S&W?

I know the MP5 is available in 10mm. I think I would stay away from a pistol caliber subgun altogether and arm my SWAT team with M4s in 5.56mm.

Maybe we should ask if the sun has set on the pistol caliber submachine gun. What application for either 9mm or 40 S&W or 10mm couldn't be done with 5.56mm? Considering the penetration tests show that 5.56mm may be preferable for indoor use, the bullet breaks up better in standard building materials thus is better where over penetraion is an issue.

I think suppressed weapons in a hostile environment (meth lab) is the last tactical function for pistol caliber submachine guns.
Jeff

Gattling · July 18, 1999, 01:43 PM

If some one should manage to convince me that Suomi M-31 (without wich's assisstance on certain past occasions we'd be speaking russia in here) isn't still the king of the SMGs

The alternative would be MP-5 in 10mm.

If the cost is an object as it often appears to be when police investments are discussed POF (Pakistan Ordnance Factory) made MP-5 clones would be quite promising. The finish is rough and so on but the accuracy is acceptable and reliability is good.
I know one that had been shot ~850 rounds without cleaning without single malfunction.

Gattling.

Gattling · July 18, 1999, 01:47 PM

In addition to the previous mailing POF makes clones of the MP-5 so it's 9mmPara.

To my furthest knowledge HK is the only part to obtain MP-5/10 or MP-5/40s.

the larger calibre ones have finally bolt lockback device btw.

Gattling

owl · July 18, 1999, 02:32 PM

I have a slect fire Uzi is 41AE and 9mm. You can tell the difference. The 9mm is a little more controlable.

Prichard · July 21, 1999, 11:35 PM

n

[This message has been edited by Prichard (edited February 07, 2000).]

**4V50 Gary** · July 22, 1999, 12:55 AM

Naah. I was trying to be politically correct and refraining from using "savage" acronyms which have connotations of senseless violence and unnecessary bloodshed (as opposed to purposeful and meaningful violence with necessary and somewhat gratifying bloodshed).

Never had an opportunity to fire a Thompson though I could probably finagle it. Your Granddad must be one heckuva man. If you want to read some good stories about the 82nd, try Ross Carter's, "Those Devils in Baggy Pants." The 82nd had a reputation back then too. It is a personal story of one trooper who served in Sicily, Italy and post-invasion Normandy, Market-Garden and finally, the Battle of the Bulge. If you stand in awe of Granddad now, which I'm sure you do, you'll really idolize him after you read Carter's book. Another good book which may still be available from Battery Press is "Paratrooper!" by Maj. Gerald Delvin. The latter book is account of American Paratrooper units from its inception of the test platoon to the various regiments and divisions which served during WWII. The USMC Paratroopers are also discussed in that book.

Returning to the Thompson, great gun and I would love to own one...but I'm in Kalifornia

.

------------------
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

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July 16, 1999, 11:36 PM	#1
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	If you were starting a SWAT, opps, Hostage Rescue Team, would you prefer to arm your members with a 9mm MP5 or 40 S&W?

July 17, 1999, 01:52 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	In theory, the .40 may be better. But, assuming I could get a .40 SMG, I would still take the 9mm. It would be more controllable and more able to put multiple shots into the same area at short range, which is the rationale for an SMG. Plus, the cost of new guns. And 9mm ammo is cheap; .40 is expensive. Could either of us explain to a city council that knows guns from beans and that is about all, why the difference is worth the cost? And why we need "super powerful bullets" that can destroy whole buildings (remember the anti-gun folks always show up)? And why what is good enough for the Armed Forces isn't good enough for the Blotzville police? I think I would take the 9mm and spend the money for training to (hopefully) keep the more trigger happy troops from blowing away too many tax-paying citizens. Jim

July 17, 1999, 02:10 PM	#3
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	full house 10MM would be choice, or .45 Super. A MP5 is a Shoulder weapon... Recoil and all that? Big Deal. What if you light up a BG with a vest? A 9 might not even slow him. .45 or 10 would at least knock him down... Remember Bank of America? So between the two options given: .40 cal. ------------------ Every man Dies. Not Every Man Truely Lives... FREEDOM! RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

July 18, 1999, 07:31 AM	#4
mguntony Member Join Date: June 30, 1999 Posts: 17	I agree with Jim, cost factor is very high on the list and can be a project breaker. The higher power of the .40 and the 10MM are understood, but liability can come into view quickly. I use an M16 in 9MM and under 25yds, where most encounters will be, I can put 28 rounds into a 4 inch target on full auto. This takes practice and training but it can easily be done by most shooters. CQB would dictate short bursts of fire and this firearm is very controllable, with hydraulic buffer installed. Ammo cost for training is considerably lower and thus will afford more frequent training. I practice almost weekly and shoot in sub gun matches about ten times each year. The matches portray different encounters and are fun and a challenge to shoot, especially the houses. Just my $.02.

July 18, 1999, 12:54 PM	#5
Jeff White Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA Posts: 1,397	Are there any subguns available in .40 S&W? I know the MP5 is available in 10mm. I think I would stay away from a pistol caliber subgun altogether and arm my SWAT team with M4s in 5.56mm. Maybe we should ask if the sun has set on the pistol caliber submachine gun. What application for either 9mm or 40 S&W or 10mm couldn't be done with 5.56mm? Considering the penetration tests show that 5.56mm may be preferable for indoor use, the bullet breaks up better in standard building materials thus is better where over penetraion is an issue. I think suppressed weapons in a hostile environment (meth lab) is the last tactical function for pistol caliber submachine guns. Jeff

July 18, 1999, 01:43 PM	#6
Gattling Member Join Date: December 18, 1998 Location: Lappeenranta, Finnland Posts: 49	If some one should manage to convince me that Suomi M-31 (without wich's assisstance on certain past occasions we'd be speaking russia in here) isn't still the king of the SMGs The alternative would be MP-5 in 10mm. If the cost is an object as it often appears to be when police investments are discussed POF (Pakistan Ordnance Factory) made MP-5 clones would be quite promising. The finish is rough and so on but the accuracy is acceptable and reliability is good. I know one that had been shot ~850 rounds without cleaning without single malfunction. Gattling.

July 18, 1999, 01:47 PM	#7
Gattling Member Join Date: December 18, 1998 Location: Lappeenranta, Finnland Posts: 49	In addition to the previous mailing POF makes clones of the MP-5 so it's 9mmPara. To my furthest knowledge HK is the only part to obtain MP-5/10 or MP-5/40s. the larger calibre ones have finally bolt lockback device btw. Gattling

July 18, 1999, 02:32 PM	#8
owl Member Join Date: July 17, 1999 Posts: 16	I have a slect fire Uzi is 41AE and 9mm. You can tell the difference. The 9mm is a little more controlable.

July 21, 1999, 11:35 PM	#9
Prichard Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 1999 Posts: 263	n [This message has been edited by Prichard (edited February 07, 2000).]

July 22, 1999, 12:55 AM	#10
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Naah. I was trying to be politically correct and refraining from using "savage" acronyms which have connotations of senseless violence and unnecessary bloodshed (as opposed to purposeful and meaningful violence with necessary and somewhat gratifying bloodshed). Never had an opportunity to fire a Thompson though I could probably finagle it. Your Granddad must be one heckuva man. If you want to read some good stories about the 82nd, try Ross Carter's, "Those Devils in Baggy Pants." The 82nd had a reputation back then too. It is a personal story of one trooper who served in Sicily, Italy and post-invasion Normandy, Market-Garden and finally, the Battle of the Bulge. If you stand in awe of Granddad now, which I'm sure you do, you'll really idolize him after you read Carter's book. Another good book which may still be available from Battery Press is "Paratrooper!" by Maj. Gerald Delvin. The latter book is account of American Paratrooper units from its inception of the test platoon to the various regiments and divisions which served during WWII. The USMC Paratroopers are also discussed in that book. Returning to the Thompson, great gun and I would love to own one...but I'm in Kalifornia . ------------------ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt