Liquid ALOX notions

[Grey_Lion]

So I've got 3 small bottles of alox to use up before I stop ever using it again.

I used to just follow the directions and shake & bake my cast rounds in alox, let dry overnight - then reload - but absolutely hated getting the lube on everything. It's a mess -

So I abandoned the ALOX directions and tried something different -

After reading what to do when your ALOX set up like amber - i.e. add small amounts of mineral spirits until it again flowed - I got out some meat trays and started just dripping a drop or two strategically. - see attached -

Then as I load the rounds, I take the round out of my press after seating the projectile, wipe the excess ALOX off the nose of the round - then do my crimp.

My thoughts on this is I only really want & need lube on the parts of the projectile touching the barrel of the weapon upon firing to help prevent leading.

I don't want any in contact with the powder.

I don't want any on the exposed nose of the round as it can and does gum up pretty much anything it comes in contact with. I also imagine it changes the drag coefficient on the round if the nose has anything but a perfectly even coat which is pretty much impossible.

And the stuff stains fabric.

But only having a drop or two on the center of the projectile causes far less of a mess.

So does our lil peanut gallery have any thoughts on why Lee recommends to shake and lube the entire round in ALOX? From experience, it doesn't make sense to me - maybe the crowd can shed some light on the logic.... just in case I've missed something else to consider.....

[Beagle333]

A long time ago, I did this when I was really bored, just to keep it off the nose. And I rolled them 1/3 turn and coated that part, every day for 3 days. But I don't recommend it unless you have lots of time.

[Chainsaw.]

Throw that mess out to the curb and start powder coating.

[dahermit]

...any thoughts on why Lee recommends to shake and lube the entire round in ALOX?

Just guessing...I suspect that Lee's recommendation to coat the entire bullet is due to the fact that Lee traditionally has produced the simplest methods of doing things. Being that they say that it isn't absolutely necessary to size the bullets from their molds, Lee's Liquid Alox does not require a lube/sizer machine to apply. It is also simpler to coat the whole bullet (Swirling in a container) than to fool around and just putting the lube where it is absolutely needed to avoid leading. In short, coating the entire bullet is the simplest method of using liquid alox.

[dahermit]

Throw that mess out to the curb and start powder coating.

That is what I do also...powder coating way before fooling with Lee's Liquid Alox.

[mehavey]

Since I have to pick the bullet at some point no matter what, I just put a dab of ALOX on thumb/forefinger, rotate the bullet sides to thinly coat, the put it upright on tray. Since coating is so/extremely thin, can do a half dozen more before another dab of Bryclreem

Wash hands/Throw tray into warm (170°)oven 2 hours/Dry overnite/shoot whenever.

No big deal.

.

[USSR]

Okay, I'll be the Neanderthal. Throw that mess out to the curb and start lubrisizing.

Don

[jaguarxk120]

Never could see tumble lubing bullets. We take great care in making
perfect cast bullets and then treat them as rocks in a tumbler!

As said get a lubricator/sizer

[m&p45acp10+1]

I have been using it for years. I thin it out by putting the bottle into a coffee cup with water that is as hot as I can get out of the hot water tap. I let it sit there in the hot water until I can shake the bottle and it is thin. It takes way less to coat the bullets that way. After I put them on a paper plate for a few days. I shuffle them around a few times. After a couple of days the lube seems to harden to where it not so sticky.

The method works with minimum output of work so I can do other things that need to be done. Now if only the weather here would warm up so I can go shoot some.

[Mule]

Down to my last couple ounces of Johnson's Liquid Floor Wax. Out of production. Thin alox. Two coats. No leading.

[mehavey]

Thin alox. Two coats. No leading.

One thin coat will do it for you.
The stuff is underrated magic.

[Grey_Lion]

I've reloaded and fired a couple thousand rounds of lead cast rounds. I've fired those rounds in a stock Glock barrel and an after market glock barrel and 90% of them were ALOX lubed.

To suggest that ALOX is some magical mix that brings about NO leading is patently false.

From my research and personal experience, the following things seem to have impacts on the amount of leading-

The right alloy & hardness <<< cold water quenching will often get you to a good hardness regardless of alloy, but alloys with tin and antimony in small amounts seem to do better. For scrappers like me, I don't spend time on alloy verification.

The right sizing <<< after casting and always after powder coating - ideally matched to a tight measurement of your barrel ID

The right powder <<< hot powders will soften the butt of the round and cause more leading - cold powders less so

Gas checks <<< the vast majority of molds do not allow for gas checks. If you like a hot powder, best to work with gas checks

Powder Coating <<< pretty much eliminates the leading issue but can lead to feed problems if not resized

Weapon Barrel <<< in pistol, I can tell you from experience, Glock factory barrels do lead more than non-Glock barrels - Glock has Polygonal barrel rifling - they don't recommend firing cast lead rounds, but I do all the time

and lastly and I do mean lastly - some lube

But no - from experience one dab of ALOX will not prevent all leading - it will only reduce it if that's all you're doing.

To fully prevent leading, you need either a FMJ or good powder coating.

One last mention - paper patching. You'll want to talk to someone who fires black powder if you want to know about paper patching. I confess I don't know enough about it to discuss paper patching.

[mehavey]

To suggest that ALOX is some magical mix that brings about NO leading is patently false.
one dab of ALOX will not prevent all leading - it will only reduce it if that's all you're doing.

Gosh. I guess that . . .

- 1,900fps out of a Marlin 32-20 w/ a 115gr cast Lyman#2 . . .
- 1,900fps out of an AR-10 w/ a 190gr cast Lyman#2 . . .
- 2,000fps out of a 30-06 w/ a 200gr cast Lyman#2 . . .
- 2,500fps out of an AR-15 w/ a 59gr cast Lyman #2 . . .

... all left with absolutely mirror bores upon a single dry patch . . . doesn't happen.

Yes, I guess I must re calibrate my reality







postscript: Oh . . but you'd better let the stuff dry.


.

[reddog81]

Originally Posted by Grey_Lion

To suggest that ALOX is some magical mix that brings about NO leading is patently false.

But no - from experience one dab of ALOX will not prevent all leading - it will only reduce it if that's all you're doing.

That mirrors my experiences also. It might be possible to eliminate leading while using Alox but it's not easy. Even 50 to 100 round sessions at the range resulted in bores with significant amounts of lead for me. I tried various sizing dies, the use of Johnson's Floor wax, and varying degrees of hardness without much success and this was limited to .38 Special and .45 ACP.

[mehavey]

How do you THEN explain post #13 ?

[reddog81]

How do you explain post #14?

I never said it's impossible. However there are thousands of similar posts out there where people have the same experience. There's a reason the Lubesizer was as popular as it and there's a reason powder coat is as popular as it is.

[mehavey]

I use/have used the Lubrisizer/50-50 for close to 50 years (got four of them going right now on the same bench) for medium loads in most everything up to 18-20 ksi

Above that/for truly harsh pressures/conditions I go to unadulterated Lee ALOX (as applied HERE) up to 30-34ksi. The funny thing is that I absolutely- do - not -have- leading- issues. None.
Drives other folks on the range nuts. **



** I also admit that I cast/size as large as req'd for the grooves+1, and as soft as possible for the pressure.
30-1 (BN 6-8) for the medium pressures/12-14ksi and Lyman #2 (BN 15) thereafter --- nothing ever harder

[Grey_Lion]

Mehavey - do you do any casting for pistol? Or just rifle?

Your comment on wanting your alloy soft seems to go against everything I have researched.

What powders do you favor?

Are you doing gas checks on any of your projectiles?

[Dufus]

I am another that casts about the same as mehavey does.

I never put out anything more than 16 BHN.

Most of my handgun alloy runs 8-10 BHN and my rifles bullets are up to 16 BHN.

I have never believed in the "hardcast" hype and I started casting in 1969 (best I can remember).

[dahermit]

It should be pointed out that there are two products called "Alox" and when discussing them one should specify which one that is being discussed. Lee Tumble Lube Alox is very different than NRA formula 50/50 (50% pure Alox, a sticky rust preventative and 50% Bee's Wax).
I have not had much use for the tumble lube product from Lee. However, I have been using NRA 50/50 Alox/bee wax for years (I think it came out in the sixties) including in a Ruger #1 in 30-06 in a dedicated cast lead bullet target rifle and all of my handgun bullets. The rhetoric from the Cast Lead Bullet Association back then was "Correct loads do not lead." Given that, once I found the right load for my 30-06 and all my handgun loads, there was zero leading. I found that the best accuracy with stout loads in handguns was utilizing very hard bullets obtained with heat-treatment and quenching as was also the case in my quest for accuracy in the 30-06. I actually obtained sub 1" fire-shot groups at 100 yards with that rifle using a bore-riding Saeco bullet and Alox 50/50 of course. Using Alox 50/50, leading was never an issue. If you have an issue with leading (assuming correct loads, hardness, velocity, etc.), with "Alox" you are likely using that Lee tumble-lube product instead of "real" Alox 50/50.

[mehavey]

"Real" ALOX is considered for practical purposes to be LEE ALOX.** See also https://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/90177.pdf
50/50 is the "NRA Formula" which is for all intents = LA + Beeswax.

I use both, under very specific (and successful) conditions.



**
Wiped-on/dried in warm oven. Not "tumbled"

[dahermit]

"Real" ALOX is considered for practical purposes to be LEE ALOX.** See also https://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/90177.pdf
50/50 is the "NRA Formula" which is for all intents = LA + Beeswax.

I disagree...if I remember correctly, NRA formula Alox predates the Lee product which is an Alox product adulterated with a solvent to turn it into a liquid. The NRA formula used Alox (a type of grease, not liquid Alox), mixed with Bee's Wax which is a bullet lubricant in its own right.
Therefore, if the NRA 50/50 formula came first, it is the real Alox.
The NRA formula 50/50 used today however, is not the original Alox...which was discontinued years ago and replaced with another Alox grease product...I do not remember the numbers...Alox 235F or something like that.

[mehavey]

Again, see the datasheet for LLA.
Lubrizol ALOX 606-55, AF1761 in a solvent
What remains after drying is the Lubrizol

http://www.lasc.us/lubeingredients.htm
Gives the 2138 -- which no longer exists as such.

See also http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...t-Preventative

Lee Liquid Alox is small bottles packaged by Lee of something produced in bulk by Lubrizol, Inc. as a commercial antirust coating called Alox 606-55. Lubrizol's site describes it thusly:

ALOX 606 — Hard film, high melt point, calcium soap, long-term outdoor protection
ALOX 606-55 — Solvent cutback of ALOX 606 calcium soap, 55% active

(Think of the materials Ziebart uses.)
So I'm coating my bore every time I shoot with a heavy duty rust inhibitor!


If you really want to get Dyslexia, see here:
https://castbulletassoc.org/uploads/...cblube2016.pdf



Personally it's either Lyman "ALOX Lube" (50-50) in a lubrisizer, or wiped-on ALOX 606/Lee

See pp 13+
https://www.slideshare.net/lota123/6...icknoyes1993ww

[P Flados]

I use Powder coat when needed (9mm, full power and mid range magnum loads, rifle loads, etc.).

I also shoot tumble lube target loads. Probably close to 50% of the ammo I fired in the last year has been tumble lubed.

Tumble lube is just so easy and fast for a big batch of bullets. I use it for any load I can where I still get zero lead accumulation. For now, this is 38 specials, 38 special +p power level rounds in 357s cases, 45 ACP, and light loaded 32s.

I do not use the Lee product as is. I mix it with with Johnson One Step no buff floor wax to create a product called BLL. If you do not want to mix your own, I think that White Label makes and equivalent product.

With BLL, the exposed portion of the bullet is not nearly as sticky / gummy.

[Beagle333]

BLL is great stuff! I use it often.