Bird shot for home defense!!!

[Wyldman]

All I can say about those game birds is that some of them barely flinched when I hit them with 20 ga. bird shot at 10 yards. These were fighting chickens. I wouldn't have believed it either until I saw it. I shot at least 5 of them that walked away some of them barely even noticing they had been shot.

No offense but, if you were shooting chickens at 10 yds with a 20 ga and not killing them then I would venture to guess that you were not completely hitting them. At 10 yds the pattern from a 20 ga is only going to be approx. 2" and unless you score a direct hit, you will hardly scathe the bird. I have shot squirrels with my 12 ga at 10-20 yds and completely missed and the squirrel ran happily away. That was MY fault, not the shotgun's.

If you hit a man with it at 20 yds it would definitely do mega-damage so it would easily kill a chicken also. I hate to tell you this friend but, it wasn't the shotgun's fault that you didn't harm the chickens.

[Ruger4570]

I love all the armchair Lawyers and Rambo's.
SuperDave, I love your post about a Nun as you sharpen your Machette. Do you, in fact, have any REAL knowledge of what will happen to you if you shoot and the "family of the deceased" sues you in CIVIL COURT?
They would prove you were waiting in ambush just to whack their poor son that went into your home drunk and you couldn't wait to "off" someone.
I don't care WHAT State you live in, the right to self protection doesn't come close to what you and many others seem to think.
I sure hope all the bad guys stay away from you because if they didn't and Momma went to court, we would loose a Campfire member because he was convicted of manslaughter and had no internet abilities.
Self protection is fine, I totally agree with it, I support it within "reason"
Do you and many others think for one stinking minute some poor drunk or even a pot head gets into your home and you simply waste him, that YOU are NOT going to be imprisoned? If you doubt me, call a few Lawyers that specialize in this and see for yourself. ANYTIME there is a death, there is a serious investigation and if it looks like you used your Tackycool shotgun with the first round of buck then slugs with the associated pistol grip and sidesaddle ( of course,, you,, expect a running gun battle and need NO LESS than 15 rounds). Trust me Amigo, self defence is one thing, looking like a Rambo in an ambush situation is a whole 'nother.
Chances are you also are too far away for me to catch up to you on visiting day.
I tell people all the time, don't get your legal knowledge from TV. just take some time to chat with a REAL lawyer and find out how Justice REALLY works.

[Webleymkv]

I would and have used birdshot as a HD load before but only with very coarse 3 1/2" steel shot (BB or coarser) in my 10ga. Other than that, I load my 12 and 20ga with 3" shells of #4 and #3 Buckshot respectively.

[Bill DeShivs]

Ruger 4570
Lawyers are exactly why our justice system, and even the entire country, is screwed up.
If lawyers had any self-respect, they wouldn't even take a case like that-but they know that the insurance companies have deep pockets. Therefore they file frivolous law suits. Many states are getting wise to this and enacting legislation preventing these lawsuits.
Shysters..............

[TheManHimself]

I love all the armchair Lawyers and Rambo's.
SuperDave, I love your post about a Nun as you sharpen your Machette. Do you, in fact, have any REAL knowledge of what will happen to you if you shoot and the "family of the deceased" sues you in CIVIL COURT?
They would prove you were waiting in ambush just to whack their poor son that went into your home drunk and you couldn't wait to "off" someone.
I don't care WHAT State you live in, the right to self protection doesn't come close to what you and many others seem to think.
I sure hope all the bad guys stay away from you because if they didn't and Momma went to court, we would loose a Campfire member because he was convicted of manslaughter and had no internet abilities.
Self protection is fine, I totally agree with it, I support it within "reason"
Do you and many others think for one stinking minute some poor drunk or even a pot head gets into your home and you simply waste him, that YOU are NOT going to be imprisoned? If you doubt me, call a few Lawyers that specialize in this and see for yourself. ANYTIME there is a death, there is a serious investigation and if it looks like you used your Tackycool shotgun with the first round of buck then slugs with the associated pistol grip and sidesaddle ( of course,, you,, expect a running gun battle and need NO LESS than 15 rounds). Trust me Amigo, self defence is one thing, looking like a Rambo in an ambush situation is a whole 'nother.
Chances are you also are too far away for me to catch up to you on visiting day.
I tell people all the time, don't get your legal knowledge from TV. just take some time to chat with a REAL lawyer and find out how Justice REALLY works.

Feels nice sounding all high and mighty now, don't it? When that overly long field gun gets hung up on something or that thug is so doped up he doesn't even notice he's been shot because the birdshot didn't penetrate to his vital organs and drop him, and you eat a few 9mm rounds so he can steal your TV to fund his next fix, you'll not be laughing. More states than you think are starting to wise up and pass laws against those BS civil suits, and in any event I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[Super-Dave]

No dissrespect Ruger 4570,

It really does matter where you live. Again here in florida as long as you are in your home and the intruder illegaly enters your home he is fair game.

Show me one f****** case here in florida in the last 10 years where "joe thug" illegally entered a floridians home and the home owner/occupant shot him dead. And it was proven the thug was 100% in the home when he was shot.

If you can show me this case and the homeowner/occupant was convicted.

I'll send you some free boxes of buck shot.


There was a shoting 2 streets up from my house. The "Thug" was unarmed and was in the yard threatening the homeowner. The home owner shot him dead right there.

Joe thug wasn't even in his home! No charges where filed and another Scum sucking waste of human dna was removed from society.

This was in the last 6 months.


Everything depends apon where you live.

Yes it is likely that a family will sue you. Just like they sue the cops and everybody else in the world.

Even if Joe thug had a chain saw and was wearing a halloween mask and you shoot him with your great grand fathers civil war revolver while cowering in the closet in the fetal position begging for mercy. Would they sue and win the lawsuit? Maybe sometimes they get lucky. Would you lose the lawsuit just because you had a tricked out shotgun? Maybe sometime they get lucky.

Wether you are 100% in the right or 100% in the wrong you will probably be sued. The only think that will affect the outcome is the luck of the draw.



Let met tell you another thing I have told this on this board before. While watching the anarchy on Tv about hurricane Katrina, I remember seeing something I will never forget. A scene shot from a news helicopter where 8-12 thugs were attempting to smash in the front door of a home they were using axes and crowbars and one guy was trying to smash it with a chair. All the windows were barred and the front door looked like the easiest access point. In the windows of the home you could see home owners screaming for help. I will never for get that scene. All I owned at that point of time was a 5 shot 357 stub nose.

I realized I was under prepared for the real world.

( I use to have a lot of guns when I was younger, but was forced to sell and pawn them due to financial situations.) Let me tell you now. I have been busy. I now have atleast a months food supply of water and gasoline stasched away and have enough guns and ammo for me and my neighbors.


When the SHTF here I am ready for atleast a month. Me and my wife have a saying,
"Raise the Jolly Rogers up our flag poll and release the hounds."

[RetiredLawman]

I have not had the time to read the many posts on this thread. I wish to do so as soon as possible.

After 30+ years of law enforcement experience, the last 25 as a detective, I think I can shed a bit of light through my experiences. It really doesn't matter what size shot you use in a shotgun for HD purposes. Within 30 feet, even the lightest load will knock the breath out of a person with body armor on. Enough said. It will not penetrate the armor but it will stop the wearer for several seconds while he orients himself. By that time, you can sling more lead. I live not far from the plant that makes body armor for the government and police departments. The testing done in their labs is quite interesting. While the armor will stop a shotgun load from penetrating, the impact is still felt by the test wearer.

I have investigated many cases where buckshot was used in HD and street fights. Also, several that were sprinkled with bird shot. Even with a heavy coat on, and several layers of clothing, bird shot always has enough impact at home defense ranges to stop the aggressor. I didn't say kill, I said "stop" the BG. Even with minimum penetration, the impact is breath taking.

I am not an opponent of bird shot for anything but hunting. What I am saying is that after 30+ years of picking up these scum after they have been properly seasoned with the allspice of everyting from #8s to 000, I can tell you this much. Buckshot usually kills, small shot always stops the BG within HD distances, and in many cases is lethal.

I will give everyone this piece of advice: Firing a shotgun inside a dark room is more disorienting to the shooter than the BG. It is blinding and you are completely deaf for several seconds. If indeed you have the necessity of defending your home, close both eyes a milli-second before firing. Then you can see but your hearing will be gone. Ask any military veteran that has gone through night training and verify this.

In one sense, I am glad that shotguns are being phased out by LE agencies due to liability issues. In another sense, they will be missed. I never had opportunity to shoot one in the line of duty except for qualification purposes. For serious business, the Mini-14 was my favorite.

In my home, standing in the corner next to my bed is a 20 Gauge Nova loaded with #6s. Under my bed, covered with a magazine is a Taurus 85 loaded with wadcutters. On my night stand is a minature flashlight. Next to it is the most important for liability purposes: a telephone with 911 preprogrammed as the #1 button. Next to that is my cell phone with 911 preprogrammed as "A 911", putting it as the first display in case the BG cuts the phone wires. When I flip it open, 911 is displayed and I will dial it. I will not need to say anything except whisper "burglary in progress" as the 911 center will know who is calling and the address. Then I will lock my hall bedroom door and slip through the door leading to the other bedrooms and lock them.

If the cops don't arrive by the time serious business needs to be tended to, I fell confident that I can handle the situation. My wife is a partner with a large law firm that will handle the legalities that may come up.

Some of this info may be a repeat of other posts, but as I stated, I haven't had time to read them all yet.

[Super-Dave]

If the cops replace the shotgun with mini-14 and AR-15's more innocent bystanders will be shot and killed than if the officers had shotguns.

I believe every cop should have a mini-14 or ar-15 for situations where the perpetrator might be highly armed. But the shotgun in the patrol car as the first line after the pistol is a better idea in my uneducated opinion. Keep the AR-15 in the truck for when you know the perpetrator is highly armed.


Each shot missed with a mini-14 or ar-15 could kill that 4 year old boy riding his biscycle 600 yards away!

[Rampant_Colt]

Originally Posted by Super-Dave

If the cops replace the shotgun with mini-14 and AR-15's more innocent bystanders will be shot and killed than if the officers had shotguns.

I believe every cop should have a mini-14 or ar-15 for situations where the perpetrator might be highly armed. But the shotgun in the patrol car as the first line after the pistol is a better idea in my uneducated opinion. Keep the AR-15 in the truck for when you know the perpetrator is highly armed.


Each shot missed with a mini-14 or ar-15 could kill that 4 year old boy riding his biscycle 600 yards away!

Oh, how wrong you are....

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Lessons learned:
1. Contrary to what we have been told, XM-193 does not seem to "fragment" when shot into drywall walls. After we were through for the day, we even shot several more rounds of XM-193 into the walls to see if we could get one to fragment. They did not.

It is clear that they were tumbling and deviating from the flight path, but they were still penetrating the walls.

Now, before anyone says it, No, I do not know how much damage they would do to someone after the 4th wall. But they would do some damage as they were still penetrating.

2. Remington 55 grain JSP and Frangible 5.56 also penetrated all 4 walls. So did the .30 Carbine.

When shooting rifles, walls are concealment, not cover.

3. 00 Buck penetrates 4 walls with ease. It is a great "Stopping" round, but there is a price to pay.

Until someone invents a "Phaser" like on Star Trek, anything that will stop a bad guy, will also penetrate several walls.

4. Birdshot does not excessively penetrate drywall walls. But it does not penetrate deeply enough to reach a bad guy's vital organs. Birdshot makes a nasty but shallow wound. It is not a good Stopper.

Use Birdshot for little birds. Use 00 Buckshot for bad guys.

[Super-Dave]

No, I am right.

Let see you put up a human size silhouete and shoot it with a 20" or 22" 12 gauge at 500 yards using buck shot.

I'll take my Ar-15 and put 7 out of 10 rounds in the black at 500 yard easily.

One missed shot of 00 Buck might be deadly to maybe 150 yards.

A missed shot of .223 55 or 62 grain can easily still kill at even up to 800 yards!!!!

I don't care what the box of truth says. I say if he thinks he can kill or even seriously injure some one while shooting buckshot at 500 yards I will say he is an idiot.

Collateral damage is for Iraq and Afghanistan, not for the streets of America.

I do not want police officers shooting at a perpetrator with an AR-15 unless all hell is breaking lose and that is the only way the officer can stop the perpetrator from a safe distance.







.

[ckd]

There is no free lunch.

Birdshot to prevent overpenetration through walls of nearly occupied innocents has merit, but if would actually plan on stopping the threat I wouldn't consider less than #4, and prefer 00. If racking a shotgun doesn't cause the perp to flee then they deserve more than birdshot.

For apartments or moving to a child's bedroom, a HG that allow easy one hand use probably is more practical. You can load the first chamber with a Glaser Silver if the penetration issue is a concern, or buy a Taurus Judge.

[oneounceload]

Dave - Castle Doctrine applies to your car as well.....remember one thing in Florida - don't shoot him in the back.....blow the front of him to hell and gone, and you have issues....shoot him in the back, you're going to jail....

[Rampant_Colt]

LE agencies NEED AR-15s to defeat threats wearing body armor. Shotguns don't have the capability of penetrating any vests.

Tiny .223/5.56 55-77 grain bullets aren't anymore dangerous to people behind walls than buckshot or handgun bullets. They all penetrate roughly the same in building material, and are just as lethal.


I'm not too concerned with a thug slapping me with a lawsuit for shooting him during the commission of a burglary or home invasion - that's what i have a criminal defense attorney for.

There's no free lunch like ckd said

If you load your home defense shotgun with birdshot, then a shotgun's probably not for you.

[Super-Dave]

Yep no back shots.

Any way do police actually believe that less innocent bystanders could be killed if you use an Ar-15 instead of a shotgun?

Do they think its acceptable to kill innocent bystanders up to 800 yards away?

How can they possible believe that shotguns are bad but AR-15's are good?

I must live in some type of bizarro world now.

Yes police need to have Ar-15 in the trunk of their crusier. But I think it is insane to suggest that they should replace their patrol car shotgun with an AR-15 because the shotgun causes too many innocent bystanders to be shot and is a liability issue.

[Rampant_Colt]

Originally Posted by Super-Dave

Yep no back shots.

Any way do police actually believe that less innocent bystanders could be killed if you use an Ar-15 instead of a shotgun?

Do they think its acceptable to kill innocent bystanders up to 800 yards away?

How can they possible believe that shotguns are bad but AR-15's are good?

I must live in some type of bizarro world now.

You're overestimating the power of the 5.56... How can a shotgun with 9 or 12 pellets that can possibly go astray be LESS of a liability than a carefully-aimed 5.56 round?

Your theory has more holes in it than a sieve - Shotguns and ARs have their specific uses

[Super-Dave]

I am sorry guys. I am in a bad mood today.

Yesterday I got real depressed, then extremely angry about the situation in Texas with the government confiscating those kids without any proof of abuse by the mothers.

I am not a mormon but I do believe no Government at any level should have the right to confiscate your kids and send them into foster care without any real evidence and proof they are being abused.

I am also sick of the republicans endless war in Iraq and never ending federal defecits.

I know cops have a hard job and I would not do it. My step father has been trying to convince me to join the sherrifs office but I won't due it because there is too much B.S. to deal with as a cop..

He has been a police officer for so long I am not sure why he has not been retired yet. I do builds for many of his police friends. The local gun stores sell Ar-15's for around $900-$1100. I can build them for his police friends for $680.00. The sherrifs office lets them carry an AR-15 as long as it is in the trunk and is a bushmaster or rockRiver, and they qualify with it on the range.


I have a negative attitude on the subjuect of cops because in the last 2 years I have been seeing and reading about so much police abuse it is making me belive that every department is so corrupted that they can no longer be trusted anymore.

[Super-Dave]

Have you ever shot at a moving target with an AR-15?

Its not one shot one kill like in the movies. Sometime it might take all your ammo to hit him running. Its easy while the target is stationary but once they start running and ducking behind cover and you are running and ducking behind cover its a different game.


All those misses hit something.

The last I heard it was averaging 90,000 rounds expended in Iraq for each kill.

Collateral damage is unnaceptable in America. Lets keep the warzones in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

When Mormon babies and Iraq influence the choice of a round chat, time to shut this puppy down as rationality is going out the window.

[Super-Dave]

You are right.

This topic has goten way off of the original thread. However it is still very interesting to see so many people with such passionate beliefs for or against birdshot for home defense.

Lets just all load up our home defense shotguns with rhodesian jungle shot and then everyone is happy.

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/p...pecialtyexotic

[*Phoenix*]

Do you and many others think for one stinking minute some poor drunk or even a pot head gets into your home and you simply waste him, that YOU are NOT going to be imprisoned?

I don't about NY but in Texas...YES. In Texas you come in my house uninvited and you will be carried out in a bag...maybe two. And even if (BIG IF)I do go to jail, it is worth the safety of my family... bottom line, come in my home not invited and its over for you buddy.

[john1911]

I am also sick of the republicans endless war in Iraq...

Measure Title: A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.

Grouped By Vote Position
YEAs ---77
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bennett (R-UT)
Biden (D-DE)
Bond (R-MO)
Breaux (D-LA)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Campbell (R-CO)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carnahan (D-MO)
Carper (D-DE)
Cleland (D-GA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Cochran (R-MS)
Collins (R-ME)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
Daschle (D-SD)
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Dodd (D-CT)
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Dorgan (D-ND)
Edwards (D-NC)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Fitzgerald (R-IL)
Frist (R-TN)
Gramm (R-TX)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hatch (R-UT)
Helms (R-NC)
Hollings (D-SC)
Hutchinson (R-AR)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Miller (D-GA)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Nickles (R-OK)
Reid (D-NV)
Roberts (R-KS)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Santorum (R-PA)
Schumer (D-NY)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-NH)
Smith (R-OR)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stevens (R-AK)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thompson (R-TN)
Thurmond (R-SC)
Torricelli (D-NJ)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)

Huh, what do you know about that?

[Murdoch]

This thread is officially ridiculous now.

[Webleymkv]

Thread closing in 5, 4, 3, 2, ........

[alfred]

We all seem to find a "expert" to suit our personal wants.We have revealed that there all kinds of experts.A expert who has slept with a gun safely and experienced doing so,will recommend such to those who they believe are capable and can do so safely.They will definitely recommend that the rest do not.Those experts who can not sleep safely with a gun will also recommend the same for all.Folk teach and judge by their own beliefs and experience.There have been "Experts" teaching required gun courses for carrying who wave loaded weapons at the students and even accidentally discharge the gun while teaching how to handle safely.

I have no way implied nor do I believe that my way of handling guns is safe for others just as I believe that their way is not safe for me.I have actually lived with my guns for over 50 years now.They are as much a part of me as the Tape Measures,Pocket Knives,P-38(for those who know),Dog Tags and watches that I carried all of this time.No more,no less.Few are in this type of relationship with their firearm.

I have been far less afraid of a angry individual firing at me with the intent to kill me than I have been in the presence of a certified "expert" with a gun and this is the truth.Perhaps next time will be different.

The following is the way I reason.If I had ever failed to repeatedly kill any birds at 30 feet with a cylinder bored 20 gauge,I would think that I had some bad shot shells.With a lifetime of shooting bird shot,I would not believe that all bird shot were suddenly inappropriate for killing chickens.Being I had killed Emu,Game Chickens,Grouse and Pheasant with the same bird shot may be why I would think this way.As I have said,I have found and shot many different loads of bird shot to Buckshot.I once shot a 00 Buckshot shell and watched the shot come out of the barrel and hit in fresh plowed ground less than 15 feet in front of me.I measured it as I carried a tape on my belt 24-7 for 40 years.I have also shot a 80 lb.deer broadside at 30 yards with buckshot who kept on running.These things did not make me think that Buckshot is not appropriate for shooting large mammals.At 63,I do not know how many mammals I have killed with buckshot.

I don't insinuate and I don't approve af those that do.I don't mind saying it if I think it.We are all different.I really have no idea why some think as they do.Others I believe I do.Ain't nobody going to change me or you.If there is to be any change,it will come from us.

I like bird shot for home defense as I don't want to injure or kill a neighbors child.I personally know it has happened with bird shot.Buckshot is even worse as we all know.I also do not want my neighbor having to kill me or accidentally killing a member of my family to defend his family and himself from my reckless behavior no matter what my motives are.

As for any opponent who ever "Racks their pump"in the dark within my hearing.THANKS!you have now told me you are armed.Even better,you have told me"Here I is"!I personally consider it suicidal for their selves and anyone attempting to back them up.This type of joker is on his own with me.I refuse to help such kill me along with their self.They make the best targets that I know of in the dark with the exception of the guy who turns on his flashlight to see who is shooting at him!

I can say that I find it frightening that I may have a neighbor ready to blaze away with buckshot.Perhaps a lifetime of over 50 years deer hunting in a Buckshot state has something to do with this.Older folks around here that used both every year of their lives seem to prefer "Bird Shot" for home defense.There does seem to be a direct relationship to age and experience in my neck of the woods with the inexperienced and youth "going to shoot a intruder with buckshot".alfred

[Wyldman]

I don't about NY but in Texas...YES. In Texas you come in my house uninvited and you will be carried out in a bag...maybe two. And even if (BIG IF)I do go to jail, it is worth the safety of my family... bottom line, come in my home not invited and its over for you buddy.

I think you are full of it! I go in your house uninvited ALL THE TIME and you haven't shot me yet. LOLOL What's up bro?

He is right though. ANY invasion of your home in Texas, armed or unarmed justifies the use of lethal force by the home owner. I had a nice discussion with a police officer here about that not 3 weeks ago when some jerk tried to steal my fathers truck. He even stated specific cases that he himself had investigated where homeowners here had shot and killed perps in their home and never spent a day in jail or even had charges filed against them. I should mention, not all of those perps were armed. Texas gun laws are improving but still have a way to go before I will be completely happy with them.

Know what first brought about the change? It is actually a funny story. Our governor at the time (Anne Richards) was actually just about to pass new legislation making it even tougher on gun owners here than it already was at the time (sometime back in the late '80's). She was in Houston when SHE was robbed at gun-point, in broad daylight in downtown Houston. Well, just days later she completely trashed the proposed legislation and did a complete "about-face" on the issue! Instead, she drastically improved our gun laws and made things A LOT easier on gun owners here! Maybe this is what needs to happen to the Governator and others like them!