6.5 Grendel Advice - Please

Mr Phil · January 30, 2013, 12:28 PM

I am mulling buying a gas gun in 6.5 Grendel . It seems from the research I have done:

6.5 Grendel has got good legs out past 400 yards and excellent bullet weight options for varmints to mid-sized game.

Question: Will it have enough knockdown to take antelope / whitetail deer out to 400 - 600? Or, should I look at 6.5 Creedmoor which requires and AR-10 platform. (the heavier platform is good and bad – less recoil but more weight to hump.)

I have a REALLY bad shoulder so recoil is an issue.

Any guidance is welcome. Recommendations are welcome.

tobnpr · January 30, 2013, 01:21 PM

I don't hunt- but I think any hunter will tell you that at that range it will come down to shot placement...

Keep in mind you're talking identical caliber bullets here- so the difference comes down to the larger case capacity of the 6.5 Creed (or .260) being able to push a bullet of any given weight faster (and natch, the Creed can push heavier bullets that the Grendel lacks the boiler room to handle)

The 6.5 Grendel pushes a 123 grain bullet at about 2600, the Creed/.260 at about 3000.

For specific comparisons, pick a bullet and punch it into a calculator, like JBM, and you can get the kinetic energy at any given range.

Recoil is, of course, going to be a bit heavier on the Creed, but my guess is the felt recoil will be partially offset by the heavier AR-10 platform. Neither will punch hard- one of the reasons the 6.5's are so popular is their impressive ballistics for their weight and amount of powder you need to burn to send them.

My son built a Grendel not long ago- it's a rush to shoot, banging minute of angle plates at 600 yards. But if the additional weight and cost of the AR-10 platform isn't objectionable, for a hunting application, more energy is always better than less...

Mr Phil · January 30, 2013, 01:38 PM

Good Points - Thanks

madcratebuilder · February 1, 2013, 08:15 AM

Quote:

I have a REALLY bad shoulder so recoil is an issue.

The Grendel recoil is mild. A scoped 18-20" Grendel should weigh in under 10lbs. The larger 6.5C well have slightly more recoil and weight 2-3lbs more with similar configuration.

bedlamite · February 1, 2013, 08:32 AM

The Grendel Kool-aid drinkers will neglect to tell you that once you step away from the 123gr match bullets it's hunting bullet ballistics aren't so hot. Antelope would be OK at 500 yards, but I wouldn't take a shot at whitetail past 300. Larger game has been taken at longer ranges, but the ethics of that is questionable under ideal circumstances. I'd get a 260 Rem over the Creedmore simply for brass availability.

These are from 16" barrels except for the 30-30 and 223, they are 20":

JASmith · March 2, 2013, 07:36 PM

Fropm OP:

Quote:

6.5 Grendel has got good legs out past 400 yards and excellent bullet weight options for varmints to mid-sized game.

Question: Will it have enough knockdown to take antelope / whitetail deer out to 400 - 600?

Short answer is yes!

More detailed answers can be got by reading the Grendelmania series and by getting the grendel-dedicated reloading handbook. There is an overview at 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook, Volume 1.

tobnpr · March 2, 2013, 10:31 PM

Quote:

The Grendel Kool-aid drinkers will neglect to tell you that once you step away from the 123gr match bullets it's hunting bullet ballistics aren't so hot.

"Kool-Aid"??? Really?

You stack the deck using a tiny (64 grain) bullet with the lousiest BC you can find- .234- to support your position?

How about changing the flavor of your "Kool-Aid" and punch in the 123 grain Hornady SST with a .510 ballistic coefficient.

Kinda blows a hole in your "theory", huh?

And it'll blow a hole in a Whitetail at 600 yards, too...

shootniron · March 3, 2013, 12:55 AM

Quote:

"Kool-Aid"??? Really?

You stack the deck using a tiny (64 grain) bullet with the lousiest BC you can find- .234- to support your position?

How about changing the flavor of your "Kool-Aid" and punch in the 123 grain Hornady SST with a .510 ballistic coefficient.

Kinda blows a hole in your "theory", huh?

And it'll blow a hole in a Whitetail at 600 yards, too...

I think this from Hornady's webpage kind of blows a hole in your theory about the effectiveness of the Grendel as a hunting round at 600yds as compared to a very well known hunting round...

The Grendel is not an ethical round for deer at 600yds...despite what you say...the numbers don't lie.

And, no ethical hunter that I know, would shoot a deer at 600yds with a .257WBM and it is clearly superior to the Grendel

And, this a .510BC 6.5 bullet compared to a .390BC 6.35 bullet(.257)

.257 Weatherby Mag .390BC 110gr
Test Barrel (24") Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
3330/2708 3069/2300 2823/1947 2590/1639 2369/1371 2159/1139

6.5 Grendel .510BC 123gr
Test Barrel (24") Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
2580/1818 2410/1586 2247/1379 2090/1193 1940/1028 1796/881

hornetguy · March 3, 2013, 01:02 AM

600 yards? Heck, I can't even SEE that far.

From the little I've studied it, the Grendel seems like it would be a dandy deer/antelope cartridge out to at least 300 yards, which is about 150 yards farther than MOST people should be attempting to shoot at them.
I'm just put off by the rather stiff price tag of one of the Grendel upper assy's...

madcratebuilder · March 3, 2013, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hornetguy

600 yards? Heck, I can't even SEE that far.

From the little I've studied it, the Grendel seems like it would be a dandy deer/antelope cartridge out to at least 300 yards, which is about 150 yards farther than MOST people should be attempting to shoot at them.
I'm just put off by the rather stiff price tag of one of the Grendel upper assy's...

THIS.

I'm extremely confident shooting my Grendel past 1200yds on targets, but would never take a shot over 300yds on any game animal. I have rudimentary stalking skills so I can get closer.

IMHO the 6.5G in the AR platform is a outstanding hunting rifle. Light, accurate, reliable. Ammo is becoming more affordable as the G in now a mainstream caliber. Look at Brownells or Midway and you well see a large selection of loaded ammo, cheaper than .308.

Before the "Obama panic II" G prices were very affordable. Much cheaper than when I got into it. Alexander Arms was the main player and prices a bit higher.

bedlamite · March 3, 2013, 01:49 PM

tobnpr- If you do a little research, you will find that the Win 64gr ppt is one of the most commonly used 223 rounds for deer. And thank you for proving my point on the Kool-aid.

madcratebuilder · March 4, 2013, 10:40 AM

Get serious bedlamite, you did stack the deck with the bullet weights. You can play with with load data and make any round look poor compared to another. Try apples to apples.

arizona98tj · March 4, 2013, 11:15 AM

Mr. Phil,
I have a 6.5 Grendel on order. For me, it will fill the gap between a number of bolt and semi .223 Rem rifles and several bolt and semi .308 Win rifles that I have.

I look forward to getting it....when ever that will be. It might just become my wife's whitetail rifle at some point in time. (as long as she asks nicely)

Fishbed77 · March 4, 2013, 11:19 AM

IMHO, no 600-yard shot on a white-tail is ethical, regardless of the cartridge used.

Assuming a 1 MOA rifle/cartridge (and no other outside influences such as wind,etc), you are potentially talking about a sizeable variance in where your round will hit versus point of aim. That can be the difference between a clean kill and a wounded animal.

JASmith · March 4, 2013, 07:30 PM

I concur that we, as a community, need to discourage taking game at extreme ranges.

Having acknowledged that, I would also submit that there is a small fraction of hunters whose skills, particularly patience, are up to the task. Couple a .5 MOA rifle with a hunter who knows what the wind can do to his shot and the willingness to wait for the right moment, and it can be done with regularity up to almost 600 yards.

The problem is that estimating the crosswind to better than plus or minus 2mph is extraordinarily difficult. Two miles an hour is enough to move a 300 Winchester Magnum bullet off track by more than five inches at 600 yards. This is enough to move the impact outside the canonical 10" diameter vital zone. That also seriously improves the odds is that the shot is only a wounding shot.

Anyone who tries a shot of this nature without having first done the study and practice is properly branded an unethical hunter. There is no rifle out there that shoots flat enough to get a 400 yard shot into the vital zone of a deer without at least several MOA holdover and frequently similar amounts of wind correction. You don't learn this until you have tried and studied.

Try shooting milk jugs and jackrabbits at those ranges, and count the number of shots needed to hit the first time. Then count the number of times one gets a first round hit for a target at that range in a new location. If the number of first round hits on that size target is less than 80%, then you can count on often merely wounding an animal that can escape to die a painful death or suffer crippling long term consequences.

My hiccup is blanket condemnation -- even though that may be the only way to discourage the inexperienced from doing something stupid.

January 30, 2013, 12:28 PM	#1
Mr Phil Member Join Date: January 23, 2009 Posts: 43	6.5 Grendel Advice - Please I am mulling buying a gas gun in 6.5 Grendel . It seems from the research I have done: 6.5 Grendel has got good legs out past 400 yards and excellent bullet weight options for varmints to mid-sized game. Question: Will it have enough knockdown to take antelope / whitetail deer out to 400 - 600? Or, should I look at 6.5 Creedmoor which requires and AR-10 platform. (the heavier platform is good and bad – less recoil but more weight to hump.) I have a REALLY bad shoulder so recoil is an issue. Any guidance is welcome. Recommendations are welcome. __________________ Don't bother running away ... you'll only die tired.

January 30, 2013, 01:38 PM	#3
Mr Phil Member Join Date: January 23, 2009 Posts: 43	Good Points - Thanks __________________ Don't bother running away ... you'll only die tired.

February 1, 2013, 08:32 AM	#5
bedlamite Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2000 Location: WI Posts: 1,395	The Grendel Kool-aid drinkers will neglect to tell you that once you step away from the 123gr match bullets it's hunting bullet ballistics aren't so hot. Antelope would be OK at 500 yards, but I wouldn't take a shot at whitetail past 300. Larger game has been taken at longer ranges, but the ethics of that is questionable under ideal circumstances. I'd get a 260 Rem over the Creedmore simply for brass availability. These are from 16" barrels except for the 30-30 and 223, they are 20": __________________ A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.

March 3, 2013, 01:02 AM	#9
hornetguy Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2011 Location: on the north side of DFW Posts: 970	600 yards? Heck, I can't even SEE that far. From the little I've studied it, the Grendel seems like it would be a dandy deer/antelope cartridge out to at least 300 yards, which is about 150 yards farther than MOST people should be attempting to shoot at them. I'm just put off by the rather stiff price tag of one of the Grendel upper assy's... __________________ I always felt that if I got to the point where I thought it was time to bury my firearms, it was actually time to pick them up..

March 3, 2013, 01:49 PM	#11
bedlamite Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2000 Location: WI Posts: 1,395	tobnpr- If you do a little research, you will find that the Win 64gr ppt is one of the most commonly used 223 rounds for deer. And thank you for proving my point on the Kool-aid. __________________ A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.

January 30, 2013, 01:21 PM	#2
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	I don't hunt- but I think any hunter will tell you that at that range it will come down to shot placement... Keep in mind you're talking identical caliber bullets here- so the difference comes down to the larger case capacity of the 6.5 Creed (or .260) being able to push a bullet of any given weight faster (and natch, the Creed can push heavier bullets that the Grendel lacks the boiler room to handle) The 6.5 Grendel pushes a 123 grain bullet at about 2600, the Creed/.260 at about 3000. For specific comparisons, pick a bullet and punch it into a calculator, like JBM, and you can get the kinetic energy at any given range. Recoil is, of course, going to be a bit heavier on the Creed, but my guess is the felt recoil will be partially offset by the heavier AR-10 platform. Neither will punch hard- one of the reasons the 6.5's are so popular is their impressive ballistics for their weight and amount of powder you need to burn to send them. My son built a Grendel not long ago- it's a rush to shoot, banging minute of angle plates at 600 yards. But if the additional weight and cost of the AR-10 platform isn't objectionable, for a hunting application, more energy is always better than less...

March 4, 2013, 10:40 AM	#12
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Get serious bedlamite, you did stack the deck with the bullet weights. You can play with with load data and make any round look poor compared to another. Try apples to apples.

March 4, 2013, 11:15 AM	#13
arizona98tj Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 980	Mr. Phil, I have a 6.5 Grendel on order. For me, it will fill the gap between a number of bolt and semi .223 Rem rifles and several bolt and semi .308 Win rifles that I have. I look forward to getting it....when ever that will be. It might just become my wife's whitetail rifle at some point in time. (as long as she asks nicely) __________________ stu-offroad.com Largest Jeep TJ project site on the web! (now with guns)

March 4, 2013, 11:19 AM	#14
Fishbed77 Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2010 Posts: 4,862	IMHO, no 600-yard shot on a white-tail is ethical, regardless of the cartridge used. Assuming a 1 MOA rifle/cartridge (and no other outside influences such as wind,etc), you are potentially talking about a sizeable variance in where your round will hit versus point of aim. That can be the difference between a clean kill and a wounded animal.

March 4, 2013, 07:30 PM	#15
JASmith Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2009 Posts: 157	600 yard shots - ethical? I concur that we, as a community, need to discourage taking game at extreme ranges. Having acknowledged that, I would also submit that there is a small fraction of hunters whose skills, particularly patience, are up to the task. Couple a .5 MOA rifle with a hunter who knows what the wind can do to his shot and the willingness to wait for the right moment, and it can be done with regularity up to almost 600 yards. The problem is that estimating the crosswind to better than plus or minus 2mph is extraordinarily difficult. Two miles an hour is enough to move a 300 Winchester Magnum bullet off track by more than five inches at 600 yards. This is enough to move the impact outside the canonical 10" diameter vital zone. That also seriously improves the odds is that the shot is only a wounding shot. Anyone who tries a shot of this nature without having first done the study and practice is properly branded an unethical hunter. There is no rifle out there that shoots flat enough to get a 400 yard shot into the vital zone of a deer without at least several MOA holdover and frequently similar amounts of wind correction. You don't learn this until you have tried and studied. Try shooting milk jugs and jackrabbits at those ranges, and count the number of shots needed to hit the first time. Then count the number of times one gets a first round hit for a target at that range in a new location. If the number of first round hits on that size target is less than 80%, then you can count on often merely wounding an animal that can escape to die a painful death or suffer crippling long term consequences. My hiccup is blanket condemnation -- even though that may be the only way to discourage the inexperienced from doing something stupid. __________________ Nevermore... http://shootersnotes.com