Coyote Trolling??

[C01]

I have been training a new hunting dog,my first in several years. We were out in some grass and mixed woodlands and a coyote came after my dog. Bad for coyote longevity by the way. My question is,is this a normal occurence? Seemed very strange to me. The reason I am asking the question is if this is normal coyote behavior I will have to change my off season training weapon to keep my dog safe.
Thank you
Darrell Avery

[Vic303]

Time of day? Could it have been a breeding female, or male defending his den with pups? Any sign the coyote was rabid? It is spring, so my guess is the coyote was defending a den of pups...but I would make sure my dog was up to date on ALL shots...

[shureshot0471]

Depends there are nemours desieses out there that will make a yote' do things of that sort. But to also see another fur bearing anmial in his terrotary could have a bit to do with it.

[BIGRED]

it is normal. Coyotes are very territorial, just like a strange dog comes by your yard and your dog goes nuts trying to get out of the fence to kick / sniff it's butt.

i have seen several shows on TV where they use dogs "as Bait" for Coyote hunting. the dogs are trained to go out and run around and once a Coyote starts the chase then the dog runs back to its master at full trottle. when the Yote' gets close enough enough it gets whacked. Better be a good shot or your dog is going to get chewed up.

Honestly if there is a game animal than there is a type of dog that has been trained to hunt them.
Florida sportsman magazine had an article recently from a guy who raises, breeds, trains dogs to Find & Chase Bobcats. he doesn't kill the cats, just chases & bays them.

[leadcounsel]

I was walking my dog off leash in a local creekbed and field area in the fall of 05. I occassionally hear coyotes out there but have never seen one. Don't get too much wildlife in Denver I suppose (we've done a marvelous job of killing pretty much everything). Anyway, walking along I was somewhat started to see a very lean, graceful and beautiful single coyote about 70 yards off to my flank. My dog was off to the other flank about 70 yards and didn't even notice. Anyway, the coyote just watched me with suspicion and trodded off into the distance, occassionally stopping and looking over its shoulder. I thought "what a beautiful animal. I don't know how or why people can shoot them for sheer pleasure." I suppose that's something separates me from many of the TFL'ers. Frankly, I wish I'd see more of them provided they weren't aggressive.

Don't get me wrong, if it became aggressive or attacked then I would shoot in self defense, just like if any predator attacked. But ruthlessly shooting animals just for their existence is not something I condone or enjoy.

[Rich Lucibella]

lc-
Coyotes, as a species, are more tenacious than rats and propagate like rabbits. Concerted efforts to wipe them out with guns, poison and traps have all failed, so you needn't worry about them disappearing anytime soon. Their numbers and territories continue to increase.

They are ruthless killers...whether it be ground squirrels, rabbits, birds, calves, cows during childbirth, small deer or elk, or your family poodle, they'll kill it at first opportunity...and they don't do it quickly or gently. For instance, calves are generally fed upon from the genitalia forward, and death can take some time. Coyotes are the leading cause of sheep predation in the west. The one that you saw was probably not "curious" to know what you were doing; he was sizing up a possible meal....your dog!

Since the Wolf eradication programs of earlier years, Coyotes have only one predator: Man. Hunting them for sport may seem cruel; but not to the rancher that has to provide their meals out of his herd or flock; not to the hunter who has seen what they'll do to a newborn calf or cow during birth; and not to the camper who's had his domestic dog packed by these predators.

I don't dislike Coyotes, personally. And I agree some are quite handsome (usually the best fed ones!). But I'll shoot a Coyote at every opportunity and never give a second thought to the moral or ecological ramifications of that act.

Not trying to change your own point of view here; just want to give you a glimpse of the other side.
Rich

[leadcounsel]

Speaking of ruthless killers... there seem to be a plethora of the two legged variety that post to this site...

At least the coyote has the courage for a face to face kill and the desire to eat his kill and there is an element of danger for the coyote (that being man and the danger being 24-7 from distances beyond where it can see).

It's nothing personal, but I have no respect for "men" who ruthlessly and mercilessly destroy mother nature on our whims at a distance. I would have some respect if you killed the animal with your bare hands, not at 50 yards with a scoped rifle.

I've made my viewpoints known on other posts, but to reiterate the problem is that "man" fails to understand that he must learn to cohabitate peacefully with nature. The days of foolishness and waste should be behind us because we should have learned from our ancestors foolishness. Unfortunately learning from mistakes is something most fail to do. It's that foolish, shortsighted and wasteful attitude which has led to the near extinction and extinction of countless valuable animals and the destruction of many natural habitats.

As we kill the larger species in the food chain, the smaller ones tend to overpopulate. This forces "men" to solve this problem and the solution invariably is "well, better go kill something else." At what point does this insanity bloodbath end? When there are no more critters? Wolves eat coyotes. We killed the wolves. Coyotes overpopulate. Coyotes eat rabbits and prarie dogs and rats etc. We kill the coyotes and now varmints overpopulate. At what point do we stop?

I think it just boils down to the fact that some "men" like the rush of power they get from taking a life. Shooting an unprotected animal that presents no danger to a man for a sport is the most cowardice and lazy act that I can imagine. It's cowardice because it's akin to a sucker punch in a bar fight. It's lazy because it requires minimal skill and no effort.

For the record I have no objection to legit hunting and ethical kills. I am a carnivore and eat prepared meat. I'm not some ignorant bleeding heart. I am just opposed to the waste of life, which is a precious gift to any creature, whether you feel its pain or not.

[C01]

Thanks for the replies. I have never varmit hunted but also never go into the woods unarmed. This Coyote was definately after my dog as a snack. Not going to happen. I spend a lot of time outdoors dog training and see quite a few in almost every type of environment. So I was'nt too broken up about shooting this one. In an area like this ,Eastern Washington,what keeps the population of Coyotes in check? Seems to me that we have eliminated most of the natural predators and that leaves only one to keep the populations in line.
Does anybody know any rough information on the damage they do to the game bird populations?

Thanks

D Avery

[Fat White Boy]

I saw a great video about hunting coyotes using dogs in Wyoming. The hunters would locate an area where they could hear coyotes. They would release their dogs and the coyotes would chase the dogs back to the hunters. Sometimes the 'yotes would come within 10 yards of the hunters, they were so intent on the dogs. THe video also showed a sheep rancher. He showed the hunters 3 dead lambs that weren't even eaten. They had been killed by coyotes, training their young to kill.....

[Csspecs]

I don't see how anything really ever kept the coyotes in check. Maybe wolfs but they are just a larger coyote, so that does not help all that much.

There is a point that coyote start getting a bit to active by people. At that point a few need to be removed from the pack and sent to "the big rabbit farm up in the sky". I am seeing and hearing a few to many around the area I hunt to be happy with just a bow.

Good to hear that one did not kill your dog.

[lizziedog1]

I was watching one of those nature shows about Yellowstone. They said that after the wolves were reintroduced, the coyote numbers went down. Also, the coyotes had started to pack hunt like wolves. But when the wolves arrived, the coyotes went back to being solitary scavengers.

There was video footage of wolves and coyotes near each other. The size difference is huge. There are some wolves that tolerate coyotes around and some that do not. They showed this one female wolf that was nicknamed the coyote assasin. Any coyote that came near her pack would cause her to bee-line to it in full rage. Of course, the rest of the pack would follow to back her up. They would rend a coyote in seconds. They actually showed one such attack. Believe me, it wasn't too pretty for the coyote.

[20cows]

I've known folks that lived out in the desert country of West Texas that couldn't keep a pet cat or dog. They kept ending up coyote food.

[Rich Lucibella]

LeadCounsel-
Don't kid yourself...Man is not the only creature that kills for sport rather than food. Coyotes do it also; so do Wolves...ask any cattle or sheep rancher...or any true Naturalist.

This idea that if we just "left them all alone", a blissful balance would be struck, is a noble one, though quite naive. Reintroduction of the Wolf has decimated Elk Herds in parts of Canada and the northern US after decades of healthy herd growth, that growth due mainly to hunter actions and license fees. Is that "nature's balance"? I don't know. I do know that the birthing Elk Cow is more defenseless against a Wolf pack than a Coyote is against a man with a rifle.

Man is a part of the environment. To the extent that we've already upset the "balance" with our demand for roads, homes, farms, ranches, playgrounds, parking lots, movie theaters and super-highways we already have taken on the burden of managing these populations.

The vast majority of all funds for Wildlife Conservation comes from hunting groups and hunting fees. "Why can't we all just get along" works only if you're willing to abandon your home, car, neighborhood and city....move to a tent in the wilderness killing only what you need for subsistence. That's Mother Nature's way (assuming we ignore the fact that she placed Man here also). So long as you demand goods and services, luxury items and necessities you kill more Coyote habitat than I ever could with the muzzle of a rifle.

YMMV.
Out here.
Rich

[Art Eatman]

Rich, forget it. leadcounsel doesn't care about facts, per two other threads where many people have spent a fair amount of time trying to explain ecological realities.

Kill for fun? Feral house cats will outdo any serial killer ever known to mankind. I've seen the remains of an entire covey of quail, done in by a house cat. Maybe one was eaten.

For that matter, a hawksbill shrike will start eating a quail while it's still alive. I've seen that, also.

I still say the biggest enemies of rational wildlife management were Felix Salter and Walt Disney. Well, maybe include Rousseau...

Art

[jhgreasemonkey]

Leadcounsil may want to move to Fairytopia where all the unicorns live in a world of mystical harmony. Since when is it ruthless to shoot vermin? I guess I am just beating a dead horse here. Rich said it all.

[swampdog]

We have something called a red wolf here in North Carolina. Here is a qoute from

http://www.fws.gov/alligatorriver/redwolf.html

"An estimated 100 red wolves roam the wilds of northeastern North Carolina and another 150 comprise the captive breeding program, still an essential element of red wolf recovery. Interbreeding with the coyote (an exotic species not native to North Carolina) has been recognized as the most significant and detrimental threat affecting recovery of red wolves in their native habitat. Currently, adaptive management efforts are making good progress in reducing the threat of coyotes while building the wild red wolf population in northeastern North Carolina."

The adaptive management efforts include an open season with no bag limits.
Electronic calls are forbidden here for every species except coyote and crow. I wonder why?

I look forward to your comments on how "unethical" coyote hunting is in North Carolina, leadcounsel. I'm sure they will be as "enlightened" as your comments on nutria hunting , another detrimental "exotic species not native to North Carolina".

To the original poster,
Thanks to you, I have finally found a use for my Mom's Shih Tzu. I wonder if she'd mind if I started taking it for walks. She's mean enough to give a coyote a run for their money. (the dog, not my Mom.)

[leadcounsel]

Many of those that sport shoot coyotes or rabbits or whatever may claim that it's for some noble cause... some are legit. I think you would be naive to believe that there aren't some folks who just enjoy it for the sheer rush, or maybe it's just boredom or low self esteem... psychology is a funny thing.

I have acknowledged that by my mere existence creatures die. They die for my food; they die for my housing; they die for my transportation; and they die so that I may shop, watch movies, use bleach as a cleaning product, etc. Here's the difference: I try to avoid "consumerism" as much as possible and I don't enjoy the fact that I'm taking creatures lives.

That said, I've NEVER intentionally killed anything breathing creature for the enjoyment of it or just because I could. If I ever have killed a living breathing creature it was incidental, accidental, or truly necessary (as opposed to whimsical).

Finally, humans don't get a pass by animalistic behavior in society. The fact that animals kill for sport is immaterial. We're logical thinking beings who understand the ecosystem. Further, a single coyote can't kill 14,000 rabbits in a night.... the few it kills don't affect the ecosystem. Contrast that with some yahoos with rifles out blastin' away at as many coyotes or rabbits or whatever that are arbitrarily on the horizon. And, the coyote may be practicing his TRUE hunting skills for which his survival depends when he stalks and kills for sport. He is using his muscles, keen senses, balance, dexterity, silent stalking skills, and ultimately his fighting and killing skills, taking down his prey and killing it efficiently. Contrast that with the yahoos in the back up pickup trucks shinning rabbits, deer, coyotes, you name it... or how about the skillful and couragous sportsman who slugs beers whilst sitting in a deer blind all day, only to see and spot the prize coyotes in the field. He boldly raises his $1500 +/- rifle with 3x9 scope, raises it and rests it on a limb for balance, clicks off the safety, gathers his target in his illumiated crosshairs, takes a breath, and with all his might and coordination sqeezes that 2 pound trigger. Wow, I'm impressed at how that man has really improved his profound sport hunting skills. Then he goes home, swinging by McDonalds for a super size meal on the way, to catch the highlights of the baseball game on ESPN whilst enjoying a cold brew....

Difference? If you can't see the differences I can't demonstrate them any more clearly.

[Wisby]

Enough Reason for me...

http://www.varmintal.com/attac.htm

And From a Tree Hugger's View Point can I say Tree Hugger I don't mean to offend anyone by saying Tree Hugger...

http://www.naturalhistory.bc.ca/VNHS...%20Article.htm

Another Animal I shoot on Sight now is Wild Hogs...

[stevelyn]

Rich,

You hold the same sentiments about coyotes as a lot of us up here in AK hold for the wolves.
Wolves when they're running in packs will kill an adult moose about every three days and even more caribou if they're around. They've pretty much decimated the moose population in the Kuskokwim Valley because our spineless former governor capitulated to the eco-nazis.

Now ADF&G has been trying to play catch-up on predator control and the eco-nazis are still doing everything they can to halt it. Even with help from the trappers and hunters it'll be quite a few years before the moose population recovers. The sad part of it is that most of the folks living out in that area heavily depend on the moose as a food source.

I have no problem whacking any wolf I see and will run them down with a snowmachine when I can. I don't dislike wolves either. I love listening to them on cold nights, but they are competitors for food resources and there are too many of them right now.

We have a couple slogans up here: Eat Moose, Wear Wolf.....or Eat Moose, Starve A Wolf.

Coyotes are expanding their range up here too. Two years ago I attended a police firearms instructor class. One of my classmate worked for ADF&G. He told me coyotes were expanding their range down this way. Well about a month ago one showed up. Someone shot him and left him , but we ID'd him as a coyote. I welcome them down here as I hunt and trap fur and see the coyote as another fur resource. I also know that if they're not kept in check it could be bad news for the caribou heard.

[MEDDAC19]

As long as lead continues to think of Man separately from Nature he'll never get it. I'm sure he still erroneously believes that the indigenous tribes that lived here were, at one with, or to quote him cohabitated peacefully with nature. Just a little knowledge of how ecosystems work would surely correct your thoughts lead. Indians caused incredible ecological damages, but still seem to be the poster child of people with your natural viewpoint.

I have a little bit more than the an average knowledge of biology and really get discouraged when I read propaganda repeated by you as if it were factual. Every species on the planet got its' niche by displacement or erradication of another weaker species that previously occupied that spot. Many by eating all the competition.

Plants use herbicides to kill other competing plants, some are toxic to consume, probably where man got the ideas. Beavers flood an area displacing or killing every terrestrial thing that had been living there. Once they kill all the local vegetation they abandon the site and move on.

Over 95% of all the living oganisms since the start of this planet have become extinct. Man has not been around for most of it. The natural order of things is dynamic, there is no true balance. New things come along and fill in as the old ones leave. If there was a true balance nothing would change, the dinosaurs would still be around and so would cavemen.

Time is very relative in the natural order of things, just ask a rock. Humans have barely even existed when you think of time that way.

[roy reali]

Great response!

Some folks think that Bambi is a documentary.

[Art Eatman]

I've had to deal with people who have opinions like leadcounsel's for several decades. Assuming from his "handle" that he's an attorney, I think the following applies:

He'd take pride in defending his clients' interests. Whether preparing a legal brief or a will, or representing his client in court, he'd work hard to do a good job. He'd take pride in work well done. He also knows that if he doesn't have clients he'd get kicked out of his office for not paying the rent, or lose his home for not making the payments.

A farmer or rancher is in the identical position: He, his family and his stock or crops are the clients. His efforts support them so he can meet his financial obligations. He deals with pests--be they locusts or coyotes or prairie dogs or rabbits--as part of protecting his clients' interests. To have a guest hunter deal with overabundance of certain species of pestiferous wildlife relieves the farmer/rancher of work which could well interfere with remunerative efforts. If said hunter will pay for the privilege of trespass, the farmer/rancher is ahead of the game of "Pay your bills".

I've never understood why city people find that so difficult to comprehend. "If you eat food, you're involved in agriculture."

Art

[leadcounsel]

MEDDAC19:

As long as lead continues to think of Man separately from Nature he'll never get it. I'm sure he still erroneously believes that the indigenous tribes that lived here were, at one with, or to quote him cohabitated peacefully with nature. Just a little knowledge of how ecosystems work would surely correct your thoughts lead. Indians caused incredible ecological damages, but still seem to be the poster child of people with your natural viewpoint.

Someone with such all encompassing knowledge SHOULD know that indigenous people in N. America are technically called NATIVE AMERICANS and not INDIANS... and I suspect that they left slightly smaller of a permanent footprint than white man has with our thirst for destruction.

[Rich Lucibella]

indigenous people in N. America are technically called NATIVE AMERICANS and not INDIANS

From your keyboard to God's Ear. Someone should let the various Indian Nations know of this political faux pas, though. They portray themselves in such a degrading manner by using the word "Indian".

http://oneida-nation.net/
http://www.sni.org/
http://www.fsin.com/
http://www.nativeamericans.com/IndianNations.htm
http://indiannations.visitmt.com/

they left slightly smaller of a permanent footprint than white man

I take personal umbrage at this description. "White Man" is a derogatory term which directors forced Native Americans to utter in cowboy flicks. I am NOT a White Man....I am a Caucasion. [Double ]

Rich

[Superhornet]

LC-----In 1492 they were called Indians......when PC become vogue with the liberals, lawyers and ACLU they were called Native Americans.