Weapon Mounted Light Training...

[Koda94]

ShaulWolf, thank you for the reply that was helpful. Ill checkbout the video later when I have time to sit down...

[Koda94]

JamesK, I agrre witb your comments, thats part of what im asking here... So far im not seeing a huge advantage worth investing in.

Still no reply on what a basic class drill is like.

[pete2]

Any light you use makes a perfect target, use any you like.

[PPGMD]

One problem I see (remember, I have no real world experience with WML's) is that to light up an area, you have to be pointing your weapon at it. One of the first rules of firearms safety is to not point a gun at anything you can't or won't shoot. And you are on a high adrenaline rush. If that noise is the local cat and your bullet hits a pallet of dangerous material, you better have a good reason for lighting up the place in another meaning.

It is always assumed that an opponent will be so paralyzed by the sight of your super light that he will immediately fall down in sheer terror. But at the back of my skeptical mind is the question, "What if he doesn't?" There you are, with the only lighting in the area right in front of your face. I remain a skeptic.

Again all these questions are answered with proper training. But to clear up two misconceptions.

1. Unless you are carrying a long gun, you don't search with weapon lights. Even in LE contexts unless there is an imminent threat of a gun fight, guns should be holstered and you search with a handheld light.

2. YOU DON'T JUST LEAVE THE LIGHT ON, be it weapon light or handheld. As you mentioned during a search the light is a spotlight to your location. This is literally the first rule that any modern low light training will teach you.

I am not against WML's, but in everything I read about them, I never see any mention of any drawbacks. They are always described as perfect for any low/no light situation.

Outside of weight and bulk, since they should always be IN ADDITION to a handheld light, there are few draw backs if any that are unique to weapon lights when properly employed.

[PPGMD]

Still no reply on what a basic class drill is like.

That is because they aren't like normal "tactical" classes. They are technique classes, with extremely low round counts, and often force on force. TBH you should already be fairly proficient with pistols and rifles before taking one.

[raimius]

Originally Posted by James K

With a WML, you have to point your gun at anything you need to identify and you are one twitch of a finger away from shooting that object.

This is generally false. Modern lights have a wide enough beam to be able to avoid this. Additionally, in smaller places (especially with light colored floors, ceilings, or walls), the reflected light from a 100+ lumen light will be enough to spot humans and give a good idea of whether they pose threat. For example, I can shine a 300lum light at the ceiling behind me and get about as much light as a 10lum mini Mag-lite would give directly, out to about 25ft.

[MandolinMan]

Originally Posted by James K
With a WML, you have to point your gun at anything you need to identify and you are one twitch of a finger away from shooting that object.

This is generally false. Modern lights have a wide enough beam to be able to avoid this.

Right, but it still requires unholstering your weapon. If you are in a public place this is a big problem unless you have sufficient warrant to draw in the first place.

[Rangerrich99]

Originally Posted by ShaulWolf

A good video regarding weapon lights:

https://youtu.be/e5Ii29Q89Sg

I just wanted to thank you for the link to that video. It got me curious enough to watch another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9vc10WpRbw

Which discusses hand-held light techniques, and then another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3hI5fjNyI8

Which goes into WML techniques. These discussions/tutorials have definitely given me much to think about, especially about my HD tactics, if I ever was forced to move around my house looking for a potential BG. This is not something I've ever given much thought, as I always figured the dogs would take care of such things, while I hunkered comfortably in my bedroom calling 911 and pointing a shotgun at the door.

But there are times the dogs aren't home, and times when there are guests staying over (like my nephew and niece) and I'd have to move around the house to check on them, given a strange noise/alarm goes off.

One thing I do know from having taken a low-light training class recently is that I'm not nearly as fast or accurate shooting one-handed while trying to hold a flashlight. And manipulating the gun/mag changes while holding a flashlight are clumsy and also slow. And if I got into a real hurry, the chances of dropping my flashlight increase as well.

I know one thing for sure. I just ordered one of those Thyrm Switchbacks for my Streamlight to make it a lot harder to drop the thing, and a lot easier to manipulate the gun.

Thanks again.

[James K]

Why would you shine any light on the ceiling behind you and silhouette yourself against it? But no matter where your light is pointed, the light itself will be visible to anyone and if weapon mounted (or even head mounted, another recent fad) will be a highly visible target.

As for not leaving the light on, I agree to a point, but if you switch the light on and off, you do worse, because you then lose any night vision you may have and are effectively blind every time you turn the light on until your eyes adjust. And if you switch the light off, you can trip on something and fall, breaking your darn fool neck. As for (as someone suggested,) carrying two or more lights, I'll leave that idea for someone else to try.

I honestly hoped that someone could convince me that a WML is a good idea, and tell me how to avoid the problem(s) that seem so obvious to me. Unfortunately, none of the responses seem to be from folks who have actually used a WML iin a dangerous area, and given real thought to its use. It sounds like everyone has read the ads with the impressive picture of some model in a "star wars" uniform but few have actually done a building search with the possibility that there is real danger in the dark

As for mounted light on a concealed carry gun, that seems even more silly. The added bulk alone would make it impractical and the civilian carrying a gun for self defense is not (or should not be) searching dark areas.

Jim

[PPGMD]

Yes James_K knows more than experts that teach at the Surefire Institute (along with other places), instructors that typically have retired from full careers in LE and MIL. People that have been through hundreds of building searches, whose main career now is teaching classes of mostly LE and MIL instructors (very few civilian attendees to these types of classes) on low light tactics and techniques so they can go back and teach their students.

The techniques were developed by people that do this stuff for a living. And as I've mentioned many many times, are almost impossible to teach over text. They are very hard to teach over video, because cameras can't accurately simulate what it is like to actually use the techniques or being on the receiving end of them. These techniques work, all your concerns would be dealt with by the end of the week.

As far as bulk, these days lights have gotten to the point that they add very little bulk and weight to the gun. All major weaponlight companies now offer lights that are no longer the the muzzle, and no wider than the slide. Even before these lights came out I carried a P228R with a X300 very often.

[Bill DeShivs]

Those techniques were developed by people who SELL THE LIGHTS!
Think about that for a minute. Maybe think about it for a week if you need to.

[raimius]

James K, my example was talking about how much splash a modern light can give. It was not advising people to do point behind themselves in a defensive situation (works ok for power outages/finding the switch). When using a wml, you can easily see things at short range by hitting a floor, wall, or ceiling near what you need to ID and using that splash effect.

[PPGMD]

Those techniques were developed by people who SELL THE LIGHTS!

No, in almost every case they responded to user requests. The idea of weapon lights long existed before someone thought to make it into an off the shelf product. If you talk to the old school guys that were there before Surefire and other entered the market they will tell you about tube clamping Maglites, and later Surefire 6Ps to barrels and handguards.

But hey keep up your belief that the companies are just pushing these products because they don't live up to your of how low light shooting SHOULD work rather than how it actually does.

[ShaulWolf]

James and Bill sound more like people who just want to pick an argument over a personal bias than people who actually want a discussion.

I don't know how much I can stress that use of a WML will be in a lethal force encounter of some kind. It will only be used when you have your firearm ready to use. The light is going to be used to PID the target as a threat/non-threat, while giving you the ability to use a two-handed grip or manipulate things with your support hand. This is important if you have to do any sort of weapon manipulation, or deal with objects or people while still keeping your weapon at the ready. It gives you more options, rather than tying up both hands. If none of that matters to you, then fine, have at it. Meanwhile, a growing trend has been mounting WML's because they offer benefit to many in law enforcement, the military, and civilians for personal defense.

Use some common sense and logic, and try out some techniques to see how it would work and why it would work. The vast majority of everything being discussed needs to be experienced to some degree, and under some actual instruction. The youtube videos shown above are good primers and supplements, but definitely not the actual lesson.

[shafter]

This topic has been coming up a lot lately. While WMLs aren't usually practical for concealed carry, they absolutely offer a strong advantage should you need to use your gun in a low light situation. Especially inside the home.

First, they allow you to keep one hand free to use a phone, open a door, or a number of other things. If you end up with an intruder at gunpoint you are going to need your phone. They also allow you to maintain a proper grip on the gun, the same grip that you use at the range.

People often say that a WML requires you to point your gun at someone you may not have identified yet. This is definitely not true. If you activate your light from the low ready position it will illuminate a room enough to identify whoever is in there. The gun is still pointed at the floor. Try it. It works.

On the same note, people are often prefer to hold a hand held light away from their body because they believe the bad guy will shoot at this, and not the WML in front of their body. Again, this isn't necessarily true. No matter where you hold the light, if you are indoors, and using a bright LED, you will be illuminated anyway and bad guys aren't blind. The backsplash from the light will do this. Again, try it for yourself.

Lastly, I've heard of people carrying a WML in their pocket as a primary light. They use it like a handheld light and have the option of quickly mounting it if time permits. I don't do it myself but it's an option.

[Bill DeShivs]

I remember when High Standard was building flashlights into bullpup shotguns.

If you are a cop, there may be a need for a WML.

In your own home, IMO there is no need at all. If you are holding someone at gunpoint, you have light switches on the wall. My experience is that most times you won't be holding anyone at gunpoint. Most criminals know you won't shoot them if they are retreating-they just run.

For carry- sticking a flashlight on the end of your gun seems ridiculous to me.

[PPGMD]

If you are holding someone at gunpoint, you have light switches on the wall.

Speak for yourself, I live in an almost 100 year old house. Light switches are rarely where you need them. For example if I was in my kitchen or either of my bedrooms and someone were in my living room I would have to cross the entire living room to get to the light switch.

[ShaulWolf]

Actually, with the advent of newer WML's such as the Streamlight TLR-6 or Surefure XC1, having a compact weapon light for deeper concealed carry is a viable option. There's also the ability to use AIWB holsters with lights; I'm able to comfortably carry a G23 w/ TLR-1HL in an appendix rig and have no one notice.

As for the employment of a WML in a tactical scenario (aka, lethal force is likely or in use)... text will only show and tell you so much. A lot of scenarios are being thrown about where the actual employment is in question. Classes with professional instruction and/or force-on-force will go over all this and highlight the best uses for a handheld and WML.

Home defense keeps popping up, and there's a lot of ways it can play out. You can barricade in your room and keep the lights off. Call 911 while keeping your weapon trained on the door, and if the door opens, flash the WML at the person's chest to ID if they're a threat. Shoot if a lethal threat is there, keep the light in their face and hold at gunpoint otherwise. Light and weapon are still trained on the threat while one hand is free to talk to 911.

Still home defense... If you have to leave your room to go get a loved one (ie, children), you'll be able to have your gun up and use the WML to do quick scans. You'll have a free hand to open doors or guide loved one(s), and have your weapon and light ready at the same time. This will also let you PID if the person in front of you is a threat or not. Return to your room with your loved one(s), or barricade the room once you reach them.

Why not just turn on the light? Because that puts you and the intruder on equal footing. I'd rather be able to control when the light is there, and direct the light. I don't want them to be able to have a clear picture of where I am, but I want to be able to clearly see where they are and what they're doing (ie, holding a gun or surrendering).

[James K]

"Use some common sense and logic..."

That is what I have been trying to do, but I can't find anyone who wants to think about what a really bad guy might be doing to you while you are fiddling with your lights. That is natural; we all tend to think what "we" are going to do to "them", not what "they" might do to "us". As I said earlier, I have never been shot or shot at, but I suspect neither is a pleasant experience, which is why I don't see much point in taking a training course based on ads by makers of WML's or a lot of blather by teenage cop wannabes whose experience is even less than mine.

Jim

[ShaulWolf]

So... you're completely discounting what anyone is saying based on the assumption that we're teenage cop wannabes, or that the instructor of a low light course is shilling for a company or product..? If you're going off of these assumptions from the start, then why bother with trying to ask questions here at all?

I can tell you right now that the operations of the lights I use let me get the gun on target and toggle the light on at the same time, with one or two hands. As for what the other guy might be doing, I don't know, but if I'm employing a WML I'd imagine it's not something pleasant. And we've already gone over why a WML would be useful in those situations.

So are you actually trying to learn anything, do we need to try to explain something differently, or are you trying to ignore what's already being said?

[PPGMD]

Because he is the walking talking example of the Dunning–Kruger Effect, he knows very little about the subject but he has a lot to say about it. And nobody short of Dale Comstock will convince him of his ignorance, heck I have my doubts that he could either.

[James K]

I guess I will just have to hope that if I am attacked, I will have so many gallant and experienced police officers to defend me. Thank you.

Jim

[ShaulWolf]

Originally Posted by PPGMD

Because he is the walking talking example of the Dunning–Kruger Effect, he knows very little about the subject but he has a lot to say about it. And nobody short of Dale Comstock will convince him of his ignorance, heck I have my doubts that he could either.

It's not even that he's said a whole lot. He's offered no counterpoints or anything to the discussion. The only thing that's been added is a whole lot of sarcasm and attempts to belittle. I honestly expected more from an apparent staff member.

[ShaulWolf]

Originally Posted by Rangerrich99

I just wanted to thank you for the link to that video. It got me curious enough to watch another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9vc10WpRbw

Which discusses hand-held light techniques, and then another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3hI5fjNyI8

Which goes into WML techniques. These discussions/tutorials have definitely given me much to think about, especially about my HD tactics, if I ever was forced to move around my house looking for a potential BG. This is not something I've ever given much thought, as I always figured the dogs would take care of such things, while I hunkered comfortably in my bedroom calling 911 and pointing a shotgun at the door.

But there are times the dogs aren't home, and times when there are guests staying over (like my nephew and niece) and I'd have to move around the house to check on them, given a strange noise/alarm goes off.

One thing I do know from having taken a low-light training class recently is that I'm not nearly as fast or accurate shooting one-handed while trying to hold a flashlight. And manipulating the gun/mag changes while holding a flashlight are clumsy and also slow. And if I got into a real hurry, the chances of dropping my flashlight increase as well.

I know one thing for sure. I just ordered one of those Thyrm Switchbacks for my Streamlight to make it a lot harder to drop the thing, and a lot easier to manipulate the gun.

Thanks again.

Ranger, I missed your comment, and glad the video was helpful. Aaron puts out a lot of solid info.

Also, as simple and stupid as it sounds, a lanyard or 550 cord for a handheld light does wonders for retention. It's a bit of a PITA for duty, but it's useful for general carry if you don't have a Thyrm.

[Troy800]

Alot of good points. My personal preferance is a handheld light. As CCW and home defense that will be my choice. Both have pros and cons. If i was serving an official capacity and going into known hostile enviroment my choice may be different. I like the freedom of the light in my hand and not attached to my weapon. I can move it quicker in large areas, use splash light or direct to the eyes. No harm done if it happens to not be an intruder. In the past 30 years i have investigated a lot of bumps in the night. Ive seen sleep walking kids, wife home early from out of town trip, brother in law making himself at home, neighbor drunk knocking things over in the back yard, all sorts of critters but never a hostile intruder. I like to think i am reasonably prepared if that day comes.

I have a 300 and a 1000 lumen light. I prefer the 300 lumen streamlight. It is more than bright enough in and around the house. It is blinding if shined in the eyes at night, and yes i had my daughters test it on me. Totaly blinding, no way could i have aimed at the light and shot, only spray and pray. I love my 1000 lumen streamlight outside but the splash light is too bright inside, totaly ruins my night vision.