How is handgun recoil controlled for 2nd+ shots?

[woodsman1st]

I searched for an answer to this specific question, and could not find where this subject was treated seperately.

When you watch the experts shooting a handgun, regardless of the caliber, it appears they are shooting a 22 semi-auto they shoot so fast. Now this is without a muzzle brake, or squib loads, I am asking about.

Just how do you control the recoil for that (or those) all importent 2nd (or more) shots?

Massad Ayoob states to keep shooting until the BG is definately disabled and unable to pull the trigger again. If you are unfortunate enough to be confronted by two or more BG's, both armed, with any kind of weapon, how do you control the recoil enough for that super fast 2nd shot, and quick enough to go to the 2nd BG in time to save your butt? Again I am asking about controlling recoil without a muzzle brake, and or squib, or low powered loads.

Any information, or videos, on this topic will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks all;
Ken

[NRAhab]

How is handgun recoil controlled for 2nd+ shots?

With practice.

In all seriousness though, a great way to help manage recoil is to grip the gun 20% tighter, and to bend your knees slightly. This allows you to get your body's natural shock absorbers involved.

[Hawg]

A firm but not tight grip and practice, practice, practice.

[evan1293]

There are several keys to controlling recoil. A high, neutral grip will help keep the gun tracking consistently in recoil. A locked shooting hand wrist with the forearm directly behind the weapons grip will help keep the muzzle down during recoil.

Proper trigger work will help you fire those fast splits...working the weapon's reset is the easiest way to shoot a fast string of shots. To maintain accuracy at all but the closest of distances, you need to watch your front sight.

As was said practice will get you to where you want to be. Proper practice would include always observing whats going on while your shooting that way you can learn from each shot.

[Japle]

There are several techniques that work. You have to try them all and see what works best for you.

Lots of good info at Brian Enos' site --
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?act=idx
Buy Enos' book. Seriously.

Practice, if it's done correctly, is essential. Just blasting without proper technique or when you're too tired to do it right is worse than a waste.

[Musketeer]

how do you control the recoil enough for that super fast 2nd shot, and quick enough to go to the 2nd BG in time to save your butt?

1. Proper grip.
2. Practice.

For # 1 get any book with photos from a respectable trainer. Ayoob's Book of Combat Handgunnery will work. There are others and there are various stances advocated. Any from the respected authorities will not be "wrong" but some may be better suited to you than others. You can learn that through either direct instruction or trial and error but having a book to guide you at first is a good starting point.

For # 2 get plenty of ammo and get to work. Note that even practice with a .22 is better than nothing. It is not the same recoil as a full power defensive round but you will get used to keeping the sights on target and recovering. Practice with ammo kicking about the same as your carry round is best. This is why it is nice to have a caliber with widely available ammo at a reasonable price or a good progressive press.

[woodsman1st]

Thanks for the informative replies folks.

Regarding "practice"; at 73 years old and shooting since my teens, I have probably shot revolvers in everything from 22s to 44 mag well over 100,000 times; I have qualified marksman several times over; shot and won in compition. I have successfully hunted Javalina, coyotes, deer, black bear, wolves, carribou and moose with a revolver.
But that was hunting and target. Now I am talking self defense and combat; an entirely different world; and an entirely different way of shooting; plus now for the first time I am shooting a semi-auto instead of a revolver.

I will get Ayoobs book; I will also get Brian Enos' book; and go to his site.

Any other reccomendations of authors and/or videos from anyone? My Social Security check doesn't allow me the luxery of lessons; but I can afford a couple of informative videos, and several books. However, there are a million books out there; and probably close to that many videos; probably a third of the books and videos are written, or produced by, wannabe experts; that's why I am looking for specific authors like Ayoob, and a few specific videos.

Can anyone be specific in describing the grip?

Again thanks for the informative information so far received.

Ken

[Shane Tuttle]

Can anyone be specific in describing the grip?

There's a member here by the handle of Lurper. Search for his history of posts. It may take a couple of minutes, but he's posted several times about his video on his method of grip.

Also, I'd contact Rob Pincus. His name is his handle. He runs Vahalla in Colorado and has quite a bit of information on the same subject.

Of all the techniques that are out there, Randy Cain's teachings has worked best for me. He's a disciple of the late Jeff Cooper and Louis Awerbuck (also good reads) from Gunsite. This is the best way I can describe without video and a long dissertation. I'm describing the grip with a right handed shooter:

If you shake hands with someone, both of you concentrate on gripping with your middle finger and thumb ONLY. There's quite a bit of strength there. NOW, grip the other's hand using all four fingers and thumb. You can literally feel the strength being sapped from the middle finger and distributing about the other fingers. So:

Grip the gun with only the middle finger and thumb as tight as you reasonably can without causing a shaking condition. Your thumb is pointing towards the target. Your ring/pinkie fingers should wrap around the grip of the gun, but NO SQUEEZING action comes from these two fingers. Obviously, the index finger is for, well, you know...

Your left hand gets canted forward slightly and the palm fills in the open space on the grip of the gun (Or providing a firm grip like and egg. Grip firmly, but not a continual death squeeze causing it to break.) The left thumb is pointing towards the target along with the right, but underneath it. If you're shooting 1911, I like my right thumb on top of the safety to provide advantage over the recoil. The fingers of the support hand is wrapped around and on top of the shooting hand. They're providing a firm grip, but again, not like squeezing soap out of a sponge.

The alignment of the gun should be with your arm.

When firing, you know the gun is going to recoil. After target acquisition, my focus changes from the target to the front sight. My eyes never lose focus from that distance until I'm finished firing. I've found the gun's sights flip up a bit and come right back down to the original line of sight. Again, I never focus on the target, only on the front sight. As soon as it aligns with the rear sights I fire. I never have the rear sights in focus, either. Peripheral vision on the target and rear sights, yes. Focused on, no. I concentrate on NOT fighting the recoil, but at the same time keeping my grip firm. Regular practice is the best to provide muscle memory on all of this, IMO.

This is A method. It's worked for ME. It isn't the end all be all method.

Hope this helps.

[woodsman1st]

Tuttle8

Thank you for an excellent detailed reply to my question; that's exactly the type of reply I was hoping to get.

Cooper, Awerbuck and I believe Randy Cain i have heard of; and while I have not heard of "Lurper, I will certainly take your advice and look up his posts; as well as the other 3 that you mentioned. Musketeer mentioned Ayoob's book "Combat Handgunnery"; I have read Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme" and found it sobering, thoughtful and a good read; so I will also get the book "Combat Gunnery".

I will also print out your detailed desription of a grip; and start with that.

Just to keep on shooting as I have over the years, while enjoyable, wouldn't be teaching me anything that I don't already know. Now, I have something new to learn, and an excuse to go bust some more caps.

Once again, many thanks for your time and effort.

Regards
Ken

PS Knnoby45
I just received your post; thanks for your interest and advice.
Ken

[Nnobby45]

Just how do you control the recoil for that (or those) all importent 2nd (or more) shots?

I can see the can of worms starting to open.

A gun recovers from recoils about as fast as it recoils if you have the proper grip. When the gun recovers from recoil, why shouldn't it be back on the target quickly so you can shoot just shoot again?


With practice, and work, it will, and all you have to do is verify for an instance, that the sight is back on target. It's called a flash sight picture. Without practice and work, you'll just be pulling the trigger real fast and spraying like all the other people you've seen just blasting away.

Again, emphasis on proper grip and control of the gun.

And don't forget--a sight picture for each shot---no matter how many.

Firing two quick shots as fast as you can without a sight a picture is called a hammer. Spittin' distance only. With sight picture, it's a double tap.


When practicing, DO NOT let your speed outpace accuracy. All shots on the target, or you're going too fast. Speed will come. It's TIMING!!

[Shane Tuttle]

No problem.

Just remember. I'm by no means an expert. There are many, many, other shooters out there that will easily run circles around me. I'm just passing on information that I've been taught and has worked for me.

One of the reasons why I added Randy Cain is his style of teaching how to handle a firearm is that it's different from Massad Ayoob. Again, different, but not necessarily better than the other. I thought it would be best to provide several well respected instructors with various viewpoints of the matter so you can form your own opinion as best you can.

Hope you have as much fun as I do learning...

[Slopemeno]

Most people shoot in a cadence that they think sounds or feel right. Instead-you should be giving your front sight 100% of your focus, not losing it as it goes through the recoil cycle, and as soon as it stops back in the "A" zone, firing again.

Chances are your gun is down out of recoil, and close to being lined up in about .10-.15 of a second- what YOU do with the .05-.15 second after that is up to you. A timer will teach you a lot about what your times look like compared to other, more experienced shooters. One thing to look at is the "splits" or your time between shots, which the timer can display back to you after a string.

I'd join an USPSA club or Bowling Pin league. You'll learn SO much in your first year..it's a transforming experience. A "clinic" type environment with other, hopefully more experienced shooters will expose you to the things you do wrong, and what the better shooters do right.

Don't be intimidated- my learning experiences shooting in club matches with more experienced shooters were some of the most supportive learning experiences I've ever had.

[Stevie-Ray]

Sometimes wrapping your weakhand index finger around the trigger guard (if equipped properly) will help greatly. I find this works with the heavier kicking Glocks and my HKUSPC. Not necessary, but seems to help quicken things. Of course some trigger guards don't allow for much purchase, especially revolvers.

[T. O'Heir]

Ever shake hands with a top shooter? Their hand grip is extremely strong. Upper body tone makes an enormous difference. You're trying to hold a couple of pounds, still, out on the end of your arm. It takes upper body tone to do that. Moreso with a semi-auto.

[Brit]

Find a local club that shoots IDPA, shoot a couple of matches, if you like it, join.

I turned 73 in October, really love to shoot in our club matches, also other clubs not to far away (45 minute drive) so two matches a month normally.

It is not like Golf! quite cheap, about 250 rounds of reloads a month, not much practice, 100 rounds? Some nice guys to help you along, if you have any kind of aversion to standing for a long time, a light portable seat!

Some good advice already on grip, but going to try the tips out in a fun way at an IDPA match is the way to go.

[woodsman1st]

Musketeer; I ordered Ayoob's book "Combat handgunnery" last night through Amazon.

Brit; its funny you mentioned standing. I am pretty disabled now due to my arthritic knees, and one needs replaceing; but we are close to the same age so thats probably why you figured that out. lol I turn 74 on New Years day; scheesh!

There are a couple of guys attending this Forum that know the reason why I now wish to learn self defense; it's perfectly legitimate; but it is necessary. With God's help I will never need it; and just be learning a new sport.

So my thanks to everyone for the great response to my question regarding controling recoil for followup shots. I have learned a great deal. i will take most, if not all, of the advice so freely given.

My Regards to all.
Ken

[TacticalDefense1911]

1) Correct stance and body position
2) Grip
3) Practice
4) Gun modifications (if applicable or practical)

[Keltyke]

1. A good grip.
2. A gun that fits your hand.
3. Knowing what to expect from the gun.
4. Good stance.

A good grip is not a "death grip". A tight grip with a stiff wrist is what's needed for me. Let the gun bounce a little in your hand and control the muzzle flip with your wrist muscles. Push forward with the strong hand while pulling backward with the weak hand. The weak hand should partially wrap around the strong hand - supporting the grip.

If the gun's grips don't fit your hand, you will have trouble controlling it. The grips should feel like you were born with them in your hand. The gun should grip and point naturally.

Practice. Practice enough so you know how much your gun kicks. If you know what to expect, you'll know how to handle it.

Stand to control the recoil. For me, that's a Weaver with about 60%-75% of my weight on my front foot. Bent slightly forward at the waist, head cocked down to aim with the sights. This enables me to use my body weight to help control the recoil and follow-up shots won't throw me off balance - even with a kicker like the .357 mag. or .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.