Exploding Bullets - whatever happened to these... - Page 3

NavyVet1959 · June 29, 2017, 02:34 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXaaybiRiYY

Bottom Gun · June 29, 2017, 03:11 PM

The original Velet ammo used a #11 percussion cap with some grey colored powder that looked a lot like the powder used in firecrackers.

ThomasT · June 29, 2017, 06:52 PM

Navy vet says I used black powder because it is low explosive and smokeless is progressive burning. BP goes off all at once.

NavyVet1959 · June 29, 2017, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratshooter

Navy vet says I used black powder because it is low explosive and smokeless is progressive burning. BP goes off all at once.

I've never dealt with black powder, but I was under the impression that it had lower pressure than smokeless.

ShootistPRS · June 30, 2017, 09:52 AM

I used just 1 grain of HP-38 in an exploding round decades ago and tested it on cured concrete, fir 3x6, and in a Fackler box. The bullet used was a 125 grain .357 bullet With the HP drilled, powder in the cavity and a sp primer over it. In front of 14 grains of H110 in a 38 Special case to be fired only in a 357 magnum. (the pressures would be too high for 38 Special) The explosive round was devastating when compared to any other bullet weight fired in the 357.
The cavity in cured concrete was 4 inches in diameter and 3/4 inch deep. In the fir it formed a funnel that saved the entrance hole and blew out a three inch hole at the exit of the three inch thick wood. In the Fackler box the round only penetrated 6 inches but the bullet was completely destroyed and the 2nd and 3rd gallon freezer bags were shredded.
I tested it as an ignition source in a rectangular, 1 gallon, paint thinner can that was empty except for two table spoons of gasoline. The can was shaken and placed in the sun until it bulged. When the exploding round hit the can the fumes were ignited and the resulting explosion was, to say the least, quite dramatic. There is no doubt in my mind that the round could be useful in detonating a fuel tank that was not full.
I would caution that the use of such ammo in a defense situation will put you in jail for a very long time. There is also a danger of the round igniting dried grass or other combustibles so using it as a "plinking" round is not advised.
I have no idea if the making of explosive ammo is even legal. I made and tested a limited amount strictly to do the research and have not made any since.

ThomasT · June 30, 2017, 11:42 PM

Quote:

I've never dealt with black powder, but I was under the impression that it had lower pressure than smokeless.

You really owe it to yourself to pick up a couple of pounds to play with.

ShootistPRS · July 1, 2017, 11:15 AM

In firearms black powder produces 10,000 to 12,000 PSI typically. A 1" pipe has a bursting pressure of 8000 to 8100 psi so black powder can easily be made into a bomb. The thing about black powder is it burns at nearly the same speed whether contained or in the open. It is a "slow" explosive. Smokeless powder burns faster when contained than it does in the open. It can be made to detonate given high enough pressures and/or heat. An "explosive" bullet using smokeless powder can generate both heat and pressure high enough to cause detonation. Igniting the powder while the bullet is deforming does a good job of lowering the containment size and raising the temperature of the burning powder. With a high energy double base powder, like HP-38, which contains up to 42% nitroglycerin it takes very little to generate a lot of pressure.
I don't know what charge was used in the "exploding" rounds manufactured but I do remember one such round that used an inert liquid with a steel ball over it. I don't believe it was actually explosive but just a very fast expanding bullet. Some of the old pistol and rifle signal flares could explode when fired into steel targets but it was more like a fire-cracker than anything else.
Anyone who wants to "play" with black powder should take all the safety options available to them. There are many injuries from such "play". It is also very easy to step over the line of bomb making which is a federal offense.

T. O'Heir · July 1, 2017, 01:33 PM

"...hollow point bullets with a primer..." Played with by assorted reloaders years ago. Most of whom saw it in a Mack Bolan novel or in 'Day of The Jackal'. Unreliable at best.
Wikipedia is not a reliable source of accurate info.
Any normal .22 LR bullet will disintegrate in newspapers stuffed in a box. They don't need to be "explosive". Real Silvertips, that were a semi-jacketed bullet with an Al cap on the exposed lead, didn't need any explosives either. A very decidedly rapid expansion with them.
"Incendiary" ammo does not explode. It has fire staring chemicals. Very bad Juju shooting 'em on a dry range too. Banned on ranges for a reason.

Snyper · July 1, 2017, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Wikipedia is not a reliable source of accurate info.

It is if there are footnotes that give the actual sources, or links that lead to other sources.

ThomasT · July 1, 2017, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Anyone who wants to "play" with black powder should take all the safety options available to them.

Excellent advice. Especially if you are not inclined to use reason and common sense when experimenting. Anything that burns, explodes or has the ability to destroy everything around it if used foolishly should not be used by folks from the shallow end of the gene pool.

armoredman · July 2, 2017, 12:46 AM

...

Capt. Charlie · July 4, 2017, 03:40 AM

This deserves repeating...

Quote:

"Anyone who wants to "play" with black powder should take all the safety options available to them."

Excellent advice. Especially if you are not inclined to use reason and common sense when experimenting. Anything that burns, explodes or has the ability to destroy everything around it if used foolishly should not be used

[Moderator hat on]

Any explosive material, whether it's a primer, black powder, or RDX, loaded into a projectile, is done with no small amount of risk. While this thread is an interesting read, I strongly suggest that all the readers here keep it at that level only, and if you insist on doing otherwise, make sure your health insurance covers a visit to the emergency room.

[/Moderator hat off]

That said, I have very little experience with black powder, and all of that was decades ago. Still, I seem to recall that one of the biggest risks involved an improperly seated ball. While burning black powder usually increases pressure at a relatively safe rate, any air space between the ball and powder allows a buildup of gases that will detonate. (Detonation being a true explosion, not burning.) Depending on the amount of space between ball and powder, the result can be catastrophic. This is the reason that black powder shooters notch a bench rod at the proper depth for a properly seated, specific load and ball. Admittedly, a drilled-out or hollow point bullet doesn't leave much room for an air space, but I don't think it's worth the risk to find out.

June 29, 2017, 02:34 PM	#51
NavyVet1959 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2014 Location: Texas, ya'll Posts: 166	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXaaybiRiYY __________________ When you fill out your income tax forms at the end of the year, look and see how much money you have given the government throughout the year. Then, take a moment to ponder -- has the government done $X worth of stuff FOR you or TO you this year? I tend to believe the latter... https://sites.google.com/site/navyvet1959

June 29, 2017, 03:11 PM	#52
Bottom Gun Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Arizona Territory Posts: 1,092	The original Velet ammo used a #11 percussion cap with some grey colored powder that looked a lot like the powder used in firecrackers. __________________ NRA Life Member Mechanical engineers have their moments.

July 1, 2017, 01:33 PM	#58
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...hollow point bullets with a primer..." Played with by assorted reloaders years ago. Most of whom saw it in a Mack Bolan novel or in 'Day of The Jackal'. Unreliable at best. Wikipedia is not a reliable source of accurate info. Any normal .22 LR bullet will disintegrate in newspapers stuffed in a box. They don't need to be "explosive". Real Silvertips, that were a semi-jacketed bullet with an Al cap on the exposed lead, didn't need any explosives either. A very decidedly rapid expansion with them. "Incendiary" ammo does not explode. It has fire staring chemicals. Very bad Juju shooting 'em on a dry range too. Banned on ranges for a reason. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 2, 2017, 12:46 AM	#61
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	... Last edited by armoredman; July 6, 2017 at 12:04 AM.

June 29, 2017, 06:52 PM	#53
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	Navy vet says I used black powder because it is low explosive and smokeless is progressive burning. BP goes off all at once.

June 30, 2017, 09:52 AM	#55
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	I used just 1 grain of HP-38 in an exploding round decades ago and tested it on cured concrete, fir 3x6, and in a Fackler box. The bullet used was a 125 grain .357 bullet With the HP drilled, powder in the cavity and a sp primer over it. In front of 14 grains of H110 in a 38 Special case to be fired only in a 357 magnum. (the pressures would be too high for 38 Special) The explosive round was devastating when compared to any other bullet weight fired in the 357. The cavity in cured concrete was 4 inches in diameter and 3/4 inch deep. In the fir it formed a funnel that saved the entrance hole and blew out a three inch hole at the exit of the three inch thick wood. In the Fackler box the round only penetrated 6 inches but the bullet was completely destroyed and the 2nd and 3rd gallon freezer bags were shredded. I tested it as an ignition source in a rectangular, 1 gallon, paint thinner can that was empty except for two table spoons of gasoline. The can was shaken and placed in the sun until it bulged. When the exploding round hit the can the fumes were ignited and the resulting explosion was, to say the least, quite dramatic. There is no doubt in my mind that the round could be useful in detonating a fuel tank that was not full. I would caution that the use of such ammo in a defense situation will put you in jail for a very long time. There is also a danger of the round igniting dried grass or other combustibles so using it as a "plinking" round is not advised. I have no idea if the making of explosive ammo is even legal. I made and tested a limited amount strictly to do the research and have not made any since.

July 1, 2017, 11:15 AM	#57
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	In firearms black powder produces 10,000 to 12,000 PSI typically. A 1" pipe has a bursting pressure of 8000 to 8100 psi so black powder can easily be made into a bomb. The thing about black powder is it burns at nearly the same speed whether contained or in the open. It is a "slow" explosive. Smokeless powder burns faster when contained than it does in the open. It can be made to detonate given high enough pressures and/or heat. An "explosive" bullet using smokeless powder can generate both heat and pressure high enough to cause detonation. Igniting the powder while the bullet is deforming does a good job of lowering the containment size and raising the temperature of the burning powder. With a high energy double base powder, like HP-38, which contains up to 42% nitroglycerin it takes very little to generate a lot of pressure. I don't know what charge was used in the "exploding" rounds manufactured but I do remember one such round that used an inert liquid with a steel ball over it. I don't believe it was actually explosive but just a very fast expanding bullet. Some of the old pistol and rifle signal flares could explode when fired into steel targets but it was more like a fire-cracker than anything else. Anyone who wants to "play" with black powder should take all the safety options available to them. There are many injuries from such "play". It is also very easy to step over the line of bomb making which is a federal offense.