"fit" for combat

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Model 25-hope you're back from it, and if so, glad you are. If not, hope you and your buds are back soon. I get my kid back in 65 days, give or take and provided the bad guys don't get overly rowdy. He's a combat medic in the
3rd ID runnin with the grunts. He'll tell you that he's just doing his job like you and most of the others-but if it weren't for all of you guys doing your job, from delivering the mail to delivering hell to the other side, somebody's not comin home. Good job, and thank YOU!

[HighValleyRanch]

Ah, Master Pai Mei says:
an ounce of knowledge is worth a pound of muscle.
A pound of muscle is worth ten pounds of fat.

[Dragun]

so... watch out for the little guys who are all muscle and have a brain!

[goalie]

The Marine Corps told me that for max points for promotion I needed to be able to do the following:

1. Run 3 miles in less than 18 minutes. (6-minute miles)
2. Do 20 pull-ups.
3. Do 80 sit-ups in 2 minutes.

I was able to max the PFT every time, and, IMO, the run is what mattered. If you can run 6-minute miles for 3 miles, you are going to be in shape. Period.

It is my belief that running is the most important skill to have. Mainly to get away from the fight in the first place....

[Dragun]

so... i think we're back to stamina.

and Rugerdude, (i love my Ruger too) i think you better get used to doing sit-ups.

[springmom]

...but somebody in a wheelchair can be just as tactially prepared without being able to "push" anything but themselves. It's what's between the ears that matters most. If you want to get into hand to hand combat, I'd go spend a few years in martial arts. You'll get good conditioning, quickness, and the moves you might need. If you want to stay OUT of trouble altogether, common sense and a quick mind are the primary need, backed up by sufficient firepower. Nothing is 100% guaranteed, but as the pen is mightier than the sword, the brain and the tongue can often be mightier, quicker, and safer than the brawn.

My highly overinflated $.02., from a middle aged lady that pushes....grocery carts. her children to do their laundry, and the choir to get to practice on time.

Springmom, waiting for the dog to come back in at 3:53 a.m.....

[porkskin]

i said baseline! i would wager i'm in better shape than most anyone on this board. 6'0'' 175lbs. 100 straight hindu squats. 1 mile run 6 minutes and 45 seconds. did 39 consecutive dips last week. i wasn't asking for myself, but rather to see what shape you guys kept yourself in. also losangeles, richard marcinko is a liar. westside barbell club doesn't have that many 500lb benchers and they are the strongest gym in the world. it is completely unrealistic to expect someone to bench 400lbs. that would be "elite" powerlifter status for anyone under 200lbs. just stupid. i can bench 225 lbs for 2 reps by the way. that is the test for nfl players so i think anything more than that is just risking injury and is a waste of effort. this was a tactical forum and dern if the powerlifters didn't go all "t-mag" on us. matt furey's combat conditioning is a much better route for average people to get in combat shape. my $.02...

[zirkel]

Uhm, Porkskin... You might be surprised by who follows this board (5:22 mile). Check out my other sport: http://www.usbiathlon.org/ (and yes, I wear spandex)

I should also add "good for you" for keeping yourself fit!

[ISP2605]

I have 2 guys who work for me: 1 benches 565 and the other 535.
The 565 guy is a gym rat. 5 hrs a day in the gym. No other life other than work and gym. He did a demo at a high school for where he benched 235 for 62 reps.
The 535 guy was U of IN football team captain, had been drafted by Dallas but blew out a knee in training, and his dad played for Dallas and Pittsburg. The guy's mom has bigger hands that I.
Both are big ole boys. They got that way naturally - good genes and lots and lots of gym time. Getting uniforms to fit and look decent is a job for the tailor. Just too much upper bulk and body taper.

[Mike40-11]

As far as fit for combat goes, stamina and endurance are most definitely the key. The NUMBER ONE indicator of survivability in combat is your level of physical fitness. Being more fit lets you perform better and, at least as importantly, gives you the strength and reserves to recover if you do get hit.

A couple years ago, when it became apparent I was going to be taking a trip to the desert I finally got back into regular workouts. I don't have and equipment so I just went with pushups, situps and running. (What can I say, I'm unimaginiative) After several months I got up to around 75 pushups, 90 situps and and 2 miles in ~14 minutes. I'm mid 30's. I actually put on weight doing it, but slimmed down a bit. Had I NOT done this I very much doubt I would be here. I did wind up spending quite some time in the hospital, losing about 50 pounds (among other things. )

I can't emphasize enough, if you expect to be heading to combat, get in shape!. Don't worry about how much you can lift, reps, etc, just work. Most especially, run or do some other cardio for endurance.

[Eghad]

for combat duty stamina and endurance are the keys....including mental endurance
you dont fight in PT uniforms and running shoes.

when I first enlisted there was no such thing as a PT uniform and personal hygiene time....

you marched out to the PT field in your OD Utilities, grounded your hat and uniform jacket. performed physical PT, came back put your hat and jacket on and went to breakfast and then to work....lol

Now I retired.....my knees are shot so I dont do any running. In fact I dont do much at all..lol. need to start back excercising..lol

However on Sunday I spent 11 Hours removing trees and sawing up a 3 feet in diameter oak tree using sledge hammers and wedges and chainsaws....so I guess I am still in decent shape.

[k9lwt]

Something that is overlooked is athleticism. I have seen huge gym monkeys taken down by little baseball players because they didn't have an ounce of athleticism. I don't care how much you can bench, squat, curl, etc. If you are goofy, you are going to lose. I strongly recommend training in empty hand combat, martial arts, defensive tactics, etc. Not many people fight on a regular basis unless it is your hobby or profession. I would say that for the average Joe to get out of the S#@t, you need the right mindset, common sense, and some athleticism.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying to hang out on the couch all day and eat doughnuts. It's important to be physically fit-whether that's 30 min. of cardio and a little weight training 3x a week or going to the gym everyday. It's also important to know what to do when you need to do it.

[porkskin]

i agree with k9. i also will add that if you don't know any submission grappling/brazillizn jiu jitsu, that you should get a little more familiar. being on the ground with a good grappler is like being drowned by an alligator if you are inexpirienced. and western boxing beats mcdojo tae kwon do any day of the week. i just thought we'd dicuss what level of fitness you guys feel like you should keep up.

[rapier144]

You'll are right when you talk about athleticism you look at who passes bud training or the ranger qualification they aren't that bulky at all. Also anyone try free running that takes a little bit of athleticism in it self.

[losangeles]

I agree completely with the athleticism proposition. It's not completely size. You rarely will have a 250+ lb athletic guy. Most elite level athletes are in the 190 - 225 lb range.

I still go back with my earlier proposition. Remember, I wasn't talking baseline -- I was talking being able to outman over 95% of potential adverseries.

No, 400 lbs bench for a 200 lb guy is not elite. I'm a powerlifter, I know. I went 418 lbs at 198 lbs in competition and won a national bench competition -- but that was for an older age group. The top guys in their late 20's to mid 30's were doing over 500 in the mid divisions. And the 220's were getting close to 600's.

But back to the athleticism proposition. Many of those powerlifters can't run well. That's why I propose minimum 4.6 on the 40 yd dash (that's not world class, either), and the long distance running.

You can easily get guys like the profile I mentioned in most Division I & NFL football programs -- look at the running backs, receivers, outside linebackers, safeties. I was a recruited for Div I as a safety, and can say that profile is a dime a dozen. Again, I'm talking about being able to out-man over 95% of possible opponents, not baseline for the average Joe.

But I'd apply the same tests for the average Joe, with baseline marks being lower (with the exception of the long-distance running which I'd have to say should be the same).

[losangeles]

Actually, there's a good way to gauge stamina and athleticism --- a certain type of obstacle course. Problem in describing it is that the numbers (times) wouldn't mean anything.

I remember at Annapolis (Naval Academy), there's this course that takes about 3 minutes for a good athlete. Climbing up large walls, moving on your belly, balancing on beams, swinging a rope, etc. If you can beat out 80% of the other guys, you're pretty fit, I'd say.

There are other obstacle courses in the services that are also good gauges. At the Academy there were a few guys who went Seal later, and they have a realistic obstacle course that's also a good test. You beat out half the guys there (all Seals are fit), you're fit.

[USP45usp]

When in the AF, I loved the muscle bound folks, slower than all get out when it came to getting the heck out of dodge, gave the enemy something else to shoot at while I booked it outta dodge (just in drills, I wouldn't live a person behind in real combat).

At a flat out dead run, I could do the 1.5 (that's all we had to do when we were doing the run before it turned into the bike) in about 7 min (I know, slow by Army/Marine standards) but the "muscles" couldn't do it under 8 (I forget but I think we did have a 12 min time frame).

Or they could do the "girlie" (ducks real fast ) thing and do the 2 mile fast walk.

Granted, at the end of the run it took me a couple more minutes to compose myself and fully catch my breath but I figure, if you need to get out of dodge, a fast jog just isn't going to do it, a good fast run, that may just save your life (or may not).

But in civey life, I can't do that anymore and I'm not muscle bound either. So the way I look at it:

1. Can I at least run at full speed to cover up to .5 miles away?

2. Can I do so while carrying an 8lb AR (on the back so it doesn't weigh as much), 1 can of ammo (in an ammo can, about 500 rounds boxed, over 1000 unboxed).

3. Can I do #2 while having either a shotgun (4lbs+) or a pistol (28oz) in my other hand?

Granted, I won't be all that fast but it's a plan. I do get funny looks in the neighborhood through when I do this

But, the fact is, I can't. My muscle mass and the muscles in my legs/arms are slowly being eaten away so my plan is this, hunker down and stand my post.

Wayne

[Hollywood D]

18 minute mile lmfao, you could do 2 miles in that time. I did the mile and a half in 13:21 at 7200' altitude last month.

I work out every week and aerobically train also.

[roscoe]

400 lbs bench press (doesn't matter your body weight; too bad if you're small)
600 lbs squat
135 lbs strict curl
4.6 in the 40 yard dash (4.5 or lower is better)

Yeah, that's pretty funny - with those numbers you could be an NFL linebacker.

[model 25]

Couple more things to think about, I can't think of that multi million dollar football players name that went to Afganistan with our Army and got killed. He was in the best shape possible.

If your in a fight that has gotten down to fist,feet and teeth your strength will come in handy. But you might look at all the ways our men get killed in war and ask yourself how many got to use their muscle.

http://icasualties.org/oif/Civ.aspx

There is an old saying "train hard , so you will make a good looking corpse"

As I get older the training I do is to shoot the enemy and the better and faster I can do it the less likely he will shoot me. You won't stay in physical shape forever

Sorry if I have offended anyone.

25

[Powderman]

Posted by Dragun:

before i joined the army, i made sure i could do the minimun PT requirements. i think it was 40 sit-ups, 40 push-ups, and run the mile in less than eighteen mimutes. i weighed about 205 at 5'9". even got my long hair cut off before i joined. doing the minimum once a day seemed easy. once i got into basic, after about 2 weeks of double timing and "drop and give me fifty" all day everyday, i was reduced to not even being able to the minimum due to arms, legs and every other muscle being turned to rubber. after about about 5 or 6 weeks of this, i had went from 205 lbs to 165 lbs of lean mean fighting machine. at this point we litteraly did hundreds of push-ups and sit-ups no problem everyday. running a mile in less than 12 minutes. 3 pull-ups? try 25 for a minimun. climbing up 25 or 30 feet of rope using your legs is rough, let alone straight up without your legs. main thing i think we were being taught was agility and stamina. mostley stamina.

OK. This is before you joined the Army.

Hundreds of pushups each day?
A minimum standard for pullups?
Climbing a rope with your legs?

What MOS are/were you?
Where was Basic and AIT? Did you do them separately, or were you OSUT?

Running a mile in less than 12 minutes? I should hope so.

What was your score on your last APFT? Just curious.

[porkskin]

hey losangeles, i hope to gosh that 418 lb bench wasn't with a shirt. bragging about lifting with gear (support gear that makes you lift more to everyone else) on a thread about combat fitness would be hilarious. i am sure you are strong in your raw lifts too though if you can shirt bench 400, but you see my point.

[losangeles]

Yeah, ok, porskin. I like just to chat in these forums b/c it's fun.

Alright, I fess up it was with a shirt. It does make a big difference I admit. But also, the rules are strict in competition (you bring it down to chest and can't lift until the judge gives the signal). A lot different than touch-and-go like everybody does in the gym. That pretty much offsets the poundage on the bench, if not more so.

But, ok, I do touch-and-gos all the time. I cycle 10 - 12 weeks before competition, and go strict with a shirt only the last couple weeks before.

I believe the bench press is a basic thing to do for preparation in any activity -- sports, martial arts, combat. The only resistance in the sports world I found is in boxing, which I used to do from my early teens to mid-20's competitively (not pro). Too many old school trainers and managers who are against it.

[Powderman]

Oh, Dragun? Still waiting...

When was your last APFT? What was your score?
Where exactly did you have to climb a rope hand over hand without using your legs?

And exactly where are pullups required as a part of the APFT?

I do know of one place where pullups are required--but nowhere near 25.

By the way, one mile in 12 minutes won't even let you graduate Basic Training.

Again, no flame intended. Just curious....

Yours,

Your friendly neighborhood Powderman
(former) SSG, USA

[greeneggsnham]

Ok. We are talking stats. I got in a weird situation. 19yo, I joined the Navy. The first week or so, the "Seals" came around and asked for volunteers for the Special Warfare program. So, I volunteered and entered the Dive Fair program and was doing well enough. Then they told me I had to relenquish my guaranteed "A" school, as they did not use Cryptologists as Seals. I searched within myself and decided that if I dropped my guaranteed A school and didn't make it through BUDS, I'd be a paint chipper, haze gray and underway with no designation. SO, I refused to drop my guaranteed contract and was forced to leave the dive fair program. Well, things get weird here. At the end of boot camp I was supposed to go to Intelligence School in Pensacola and instead was told that I was going to an Army Post up North. [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]? So, another fellow and I that were heading into Naval Intelligence that were both in the DF program got sent to an Army Intelligence School for almost a year, and spent a few months of that time TAD to a Special Forces training unit. It isn't even in my records and the only proof I have of it is going to the troop medical clinic in my med records. What I'm getting at is that going in I weighed 225lbs and when the SF unit kicked me down to 180lbs, I could shuffle 20 miles with no trouble. Before that I could bench 370, squat 600, and leg press over a ton and I could run several miles. After getting chewed up and spit out, I lost perceived strength, but my whole body was stronger instead and I could go forever. Winding up in the Middle East in an intelligence capacity, I had to do intel work for an actual Deployed Seal team. In reality, they were nothing like Marcinco's books. Most of them were fairly small guys that were built like rawhide. No bulging muscles, just wiry strong little bstds. The largest one weighed maybe 170 and he was an officer. No Arnolds or Rambos. Just strangely silent scary little guys.