October 5, 2015, 11:17 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 10, 2012
Posts: 3,881
|
muzzle loader ?
Is the 58 cal muzzle loader obsolete ? Is 58 a good caliber in a carbine ?
|
October 5, 2015, 11:24 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 8,783
|
No and maybe not??
Is the 58 cal muzzle loader obsolete ?
Not at all !! Is 58 a good caliber in a carbine ? I'll pass on this one !! .... Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing. |
October 5, 2015, 11:29 AM | #3 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 30, 2010
Posts: 1,635
|
Quote:
By the 1890s, cartridge firearms were the clear successor to muzzle loaders. There were and are carbines in 58 caliber and they shoot quite accurately. I'm better with my Richmond Carbine in .58 than I am with my P1853 in .58. Carbines, being shorter, tend to be easier to wield. Many people still shoot these arms, as evidenced here and in organizations like the North-South Skirmish Association. See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp1qho8DLuw |
|
October 5, 2015, 01:14 PM | #4 |
Member
Join Date: June 26, 2012
Posts: 58
|
Correct me if I,m wrong but I beleave most but not all .58 cal are smooth bore.
I say most. |
October 5, 2015, 01:16 PM | #5 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,883
|
Quote:
Quote:
re 58 smoothbore: The vast majority these days (and after 1850s) were/are rifled muskets, and will take your head off at 150 yds |
||
October 5, 2015, 02:37 PM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 30, 2010
Posts: 1,635
|
Quote:
The British Pattern 1853 Enfield is a .58 caliber rifled musket, as are its derivatives the P58 and P60. The US 1855 and 1861 Springfields are likewise .58 caliber rifled muskets. Carbine length variants are likewise. The model 1842 Smoothbore was the last military-produced smoothbore for the USA and it was .69 caliber, as was the 1816 before it. Some .69 caliber smoothbores were rifled to convert to rifled muskets. Steve |
|
October 5, 2015, 03:08 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 4,700
|
Define obsolete ? In hobby shooting, black powder, the word really doesn't apply. If you can get ammunition, components, supplies for it, you can shoot it. Now firing ammunition for a teatfire, a pinfire, some of the older larger rimfires, that might be a problem.
|
October 5, 2015, 03:19 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 26, 2012
Location: Concord NH
Posts: 1,002
|
I have a friend that has a Hawkins 58 cal smoothbore and it shoots pretty well out to 50 yds, beyond that its a crapshoot
|
October 5, 2015, 08:00 PM | #9 |
Staff
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,831
|
If I had to go up against a bear, I'd prefer a double barrel .58 caliber minie gun over a round ball rifle anyday.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe! |
October 5, 2015, 09:25 PM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,883
|
Quote:
Can you elaborate ? |
|
October 6, 2015, 03:49 AM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 26, 2012
Location: Concord NH
Posts: 1,002
|
I dont know what year they made them but I was told they were made for Massachusetts hunters because at 1 time all they could use were smooth bore muzzleloaders for their primitive firearms season.
|
October 6, 2015, 04:03 AM | #12 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 5,473
|
Hawken
AFAIK....the Hawken brothers built rifles. The pattern that they created is much imitated by modern manufacturers. It is entirely possible that someone took a modern Hawken style rifle, removed the rifled barrel and bought a .58 caliber smoothbore drop-in barrel from a company like Green Mt. Barrels.
Quote:
Pete
__________________
“Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member |
|
October 6, 2015, 06:28 AM | #13 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 439
|
Quote:
I do recall there being a note stating that it wasn’t known if it started life as a smoothbore or if someone reamed it out . Its not hard to find a 58 in rifled bore , others have pointed that out . Rifled bores go through much the same calibers as smoothbores do . For the Hawkins rifle ,off the top of my head I want to say Ashley had his rifle made in 60 or was it 62 cal ???. IE a basically a rifled 20 gage |
|
October 6, 2015, 10:05 AM | #14 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 8,783
|
.58, .56; Whatever it takes !!!
Quote:
Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing. |
|
October 6, 2015, 12:00 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 19, 2009
Posts: 3,287
|
The OP has posted a pretty general question.
.58 is not "dead" by any means. Either in smoothbore or rifle. Rifles . . if it was dead, N-SSA would be in existence as most rifled muskets are .58 caliber - I've shot rifled muskets for 50 years. But . . those take a "minie ball". If you are talking round ball . . . I have know quite a few who have 58 caliber smoothbore trade guns. Very versatile for both round ball or shot. If you're talking rifle . . I also have know quite a few who have 58 caliber round ball rifles. Not only Hawken style but full stock Kentucky style rifles as well. While I've owned a few "production" guns, most of mine have been custom built by myself over the years. And . . you'll see a number of customer built rifles in that caliber. Carbine? Again . . what are you referring to? A military style such as the Parker Hale .58 caliber rifles or a "civilian" style which is equivalent to a "short rifle"? As far as I'm concerned . . no caliber is "obsolete" . . . especially in muzzle loading. All you need is a mold of the right size and you are all set to go. If you are hunting . . . you choose the rifle/caliber that is appropriate for the game you are hunting. 58 caliber? An excellent choice for large game . . deer, small bear, etc. But if you are going to hunt squirrels with it . . yes . . . I guess you could say it's "obsolete" . . . unless you want to shoot 'em and clean 'em at the same time.But then again, I wouldn't be choosing my 36 caliber to hunt bear either . . . . doing that might make "ME" obsolete!
__________________
If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63 |
October 6, 2015, 05:00 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 18, 2010
Location: Orygun
Posts: 869
|
See photo of results of .58cal musketoon on cow elk. You don't lose that much velocity in the carbine. You could also use FFFg powder for the short barreled rifle. The 58s have less consistant bore diameters than the 54s. There are more options in projectiles for the 54s whereas the 58s are pretty much minie ball or patched round ball guns. A .562, .570 or .575 PRB will smack down anything. I shot 90grs FFG under a 577611 530 gr heavily skirted minie through that elk. I've also gotten two deer with the 757213-OS over 90grs FFg in my Zouave. I have yet to recover a projectile. However you need to sight a minie about 5" high at 50yds to have it hit right on at 100yds.
__________________
With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell) |
October 6, 2015, 07:28 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 10, 2012
Posts: 3,881
|
What I am talking about is a Cabelas brand 58 cal carbine. I believe it has a rifled barrel. It has a synthetic stock
|
October 6, 2015, 09:47 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,883
|
Can you give us a link ?
All I see on Cabelas' site are 58 cal rifles |
October 6, 2015, 10:21 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,876
|
I have a 58 big bore T/C. Having a 1-48 twist it shoots everything reasonably well. Great 50 yrd rifle. Shoots a huge 280 gr P/ball that's got some real noticeable thump on the receiving end.
|
October 7, 2015, 06:18 AM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 10, 2012
Posts: 3,881
|
It is an older model that I am considering buying used from a guy at our club.He wants $50.00 for it and some extra stuff that goes with it.
|
October 7, 2015, 06:25 AM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 439
|
for 50 bucks , grab it quick
|
October 7, 2015, 07:39 AM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,876
|
Really 50 bucks is all. ~~~Heck its iron parts are worth that alone.
|
October 7, 2015, 08:03 AM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,883
|
Get it.
If it has an OEM synthetic stock, I think you might find it's actually a different caliber (54?) and an In-Line rather than sidelock. Please let is know afterwards (I'm kinda fascinated at this point) |
October 7, 2015, 11:45 AM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 30, 2010
Posts: 1,635
|
Agree, kinda hard to go wrong with a functional firearm for $50.
Steve |
October 7, 2015, 01:47 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 10, 2012
Posts: 3,881
|
It also has a set trigger but I don't think it is working right. I cock it then set the trigger with the read trigger and when I pull the front trigger it kind of clicks, moves back and then it a hard pull tp set the gun off. There is an adjustment on the trigger but there is no manual so I don't know how to adjust it.
The barrel is marked made in Italy, black powder only, cal 58. The top side is marked Cabela,s Inc Sydney NE. On the right side it is marked to read the instruction manual before firing available from invest arm spa 25060 Macherno Italy. Last edited by rebs; October 7, 2015 at 01:56 PM. |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|