Is This muzzle loading??

[swatman]

Good point..Man I didn't expect this thread to get so busy. I agree I think Inlines are a slide downa slippery slope in some ways..

[Jimmy Mac]

Shooters all during history have looked for ways to improve their shooting and hunting skills without shooting and hunting.

[Guyon]

Not so fast, BluRidgDav.

Original Intent. . .
isn't quite so easy, though many would like to think so. That's because a sense of original intent provides security. It frees one from having to think through the intricacies of an issue, and it erases doubt. Advocates of original intent, often political extremists (left or right) or religious fundamentalists, claim they know exactly what "intent" lies behind a law, a religious passage, or even a piece of literature, but they forget the complex historical situation which produces any document. They also deny the fact that language is unstable. That's its very nature.

Predictable that you'd use Bill Clinton to produce a knee-jerk reaction, but you know full well that Republicans are just as guilty as Democrats when it comes to nitpicking language and interpreting the Constitution. Your poker analogy is interesting but flawed. In that scenario, who makes you the dictator of rules?. My claim was that intent and language are debatable and interpretable--not that rules can be shanghaied from on high.

Yes, precedent is the primary foundation of our legal system, but every single day, laws and precedents are interpreted variously. By lawyers, by judges, by juries, by legislators, and by folks in the executive branch. Would you argue that those nine folks in SCOTUS have no place interpreting the Constitution?

You're never going to sell me fully on original intent. That's because language and motives are too complex to ever pin down to a single intent that everyone will agree upon. Even at the moment of conception, the waters are sometimes muddy. If "original intent" helps you sleep better at night, so be it. But the world and its history are far more complex--particularly when it comes to producing a text grounded in language.

That said, your strongest argument is that you do have greater insight into the original intent behind muzzleloading season. My response, however, is: so what? I'll repeat again. Intents change. Maybe not in your mind. Maybe not in the minds of your traditionalist friends. But from the perspective of inline shooters and a great number of state governments, the current intent of the muzzleloading season is to allow hunting for folks who shoot a firearm that loads from the muzzle. Pretty simple. I'm not all that worried about original intent, though you think I should be. I'm concerned with current intent, and I don't really care who it ticks off.

But then, what about a state like Georgia? They just got their muzzleloading season a few years ago. Gun hunters there, if I'm not mistaken, gave up a portion of their season for muzzleloading. Inlines were around and had been for quite some time. Inlines are legal under Georgia's rules.


Nostalgia vs. Progress. . .
No one is stopping you from reliving the past and challenging yourself with antique weapons. I'm certainly not trying to push modern technology on you. Please don't try and push your gun of choice on me. Is it so hard to live and let live?

Legitimacy. . .
Again, we're arguing at two ends of the spectrum because language is open to interpretation. In your mind, legitimacy is shaped by nostalgia, original intent, and your own subjective desire to have a portion of the season exclusively for traditionalists. In my mind, legitimacy is shaped by concerns for hunting, game management, my state legislature, and my wildlife division. I don't see that legitimacy changing anytime soon.

[Magnumdood]

This is an interesting thread, as it usually is where ever it crops up. And the arguments are right along the same lines; original intent vs what is legal.

Problem is (mainly a problem, for people who shoot true muzzle loaders), both sides are right: The original intent WAS to provide a season for muzzle loaders, at the time synonymous with primitive hunters, to give hunters who chose primitive equipment a chance to hunt deer in less crowded conditions with equipment that was more of a challenge to use. However, now even that God-awful Savage ML that uses SMOKELESS powder is legal in some muzzle loading seasons.

What the firearm companies have done is produced a rifle that for all intents and purposes is no different than my single shot bolt action - except it loads from the muzzle. Heck, remove the breech plug and some of them even CLEAN up like my centerfire rifle.

People who purchase and use scoped in lines during a blackpowder/muzzleloader season are taking advantage of the equipment race that has outstripped legislative intent/wording.

I don't hunt with a muzzle loader, but I fully understand and agree with the guys who hunt with true muzzleloaders when they express outrage that these scoped modern rifles are allowed in the woods during what is supposed to be a primitive season.

I say lets combine all the firearm seasons into one long any gun season. Within a week of passage of such laws gunbroker.com would be choked with in-lines for sale. Jeezus - Wally world sells an in-line rifle kit in a frigging blister pack hung on the wall along side the cleaning suplies.

In an any-gun season the true primitive hunters would be right there, along side everyone else, with their flinters and sidelocks, hunting as they always have. The erstwhile in-line owners would be in the woods with their scoped centerfire rifles just like me.

THEN, approach the game commissions and get the primitive season reinstated, with language specific enough to make sure blasphmeous creations like inlines never scar our landscape again. All you'd have to do is show them 9law makers) the in-line sales for the year(s) following the blending of the seasons; then the game commissions could infer the intent of the hunters who went afield with high-tech scopes mounted on stainless steel, synthetic stocked, bolt-action in-lines, with totally protected ignition systems, firing a saboted 50 cal projectile over # grains of smokeless powder.

I believe the end result would be much different than what we are dealing with now. It would be much more like CAS, who took the mistakes learned in IPSC, and PPC, where equipment races ruined the sport(s) for the average Joe, and clearly defined what would be, and would NOT be, allowed in THEIR sport; thus keeping it fun for all.

[Jimmy Mac]

I will say this again.

The muzzleloading season was put in place in most states long before the inline was even thought of.

The muzzleolading season was started so BUCKSKINNERS AND MUZZLELOADING RIFLE ENTHUSIASTS to have a season away from modern hunters using modern guns.

This like the Constitution is not up for debate. It was written in plain simple English so even a 6 year old could understand.

[Jimmy Mac]

Magmundood

You are correct. Several people hunt with their muzzleloaders during the modern gun season. they do so because they enjoy their rifles and the sport of the hunt.

No one I know enjoys their inline enough to use it in the modern season.

Inline owners see their rifles as a nessary evil. They need it to hunt in the muzzleloading season and they don't even like to shoot it much less clean it.

They see it as a easy way to hunt without learning how to use a real rifle.

[Hemicuda]

And I see it as using what I want to, in a wayI want to use it...

i still have toload it 1 shot at a time, down the bore from the front like you do...

I just cap it with a shotgun primer instead...

I still shoot round balls in it...

I use REAL FFg BLACK POWDER in it...

but I use shotty primers...

I HAVE been known to use it in standard season (I sometimes hunt a spot where 70 yards is all you can see...)

part of the fun is that you get to shoot your gun once a day, EVERY day... (I don't leave it loaded)

but so what if it takes a shotty primer...

does it load any faster than yours? (shooter/loaders SKILL determines this, NOT rifle design...)

does it hurt YOU in any way, Jimmy Mac? and if so, HOW? what harm is done to you, and in what way?

[Guyon]

Exactly, Hemicuda.

This year, I plan to try my inline during centerfire season as well.

I've been lurking over at BlackpowderShooters Talk. The more I read, the more I think I'd like to try shooting a flintlock. Who knows? Next year, I might just pick up a Lyman Great Plains kit and try the gun during muzzleloading season.

But if I do, will I complain non-stop about the inline shooters with whom I share the woods? No, I won't. I'll worry about my business, and let the next hunter worry about his.

[Guyon]

I almost forgot my manners.

Magnumdood, welcome to TFL. You'll find a lot of knowledgeable folks and some decent debates here. Take off your coat and stay a while.

[Alex Johnson]

Every time I open up an issue of Muzzleblasts I see the pictures of trophey animals taken with muzzleloaders. It seems these days that many of the guns being used are inlines. I guess I don't have too much problem with people using these guns for hunting, but I do feel they are missing out on some of the enjoyment that many of us get from hunting with a truly traditional muzzleloader, enjoying the history and challenge of it. And really there is more challenge when using a gun designed over 200 years ago, there are more chances for missfires, problems the environment can spring on you, there is no guarentee that you'll have 100% success even if everything else goes right. But that all combines to make the hunt all that more enjoyable when you do bring home meat because you know that it took a bit more skill than hunting these days normally requires. That's what I enjoy about the sport of traditional muzzleloading.

[Magnumdood]

Guyon,

Thank you for the welcome!

Another issue to consider while using scoped in-lines during blackpowder/muzzleloader/primitive hunts: Public perception.

Perception was alluded to in a previous post; feed some venison to friends, then show them the flinter/side lock percusion you took the deer with. Or, bring out the scoped in-line and show your visitors that. I don't believe most people would really care at that point - you're at home, etc...not in the field. However, in a primitive season I don't believe the average American would expect to see a scoped rifle used in the field. Granted, it's a muzzle loader by definition because it's loaded from the muzzle - but, the in-lines look so much like center fire rifles a casual observer would likely not know the difference. I'm sure some mouth breathing anti-gunner would love to capture a photo of an inline hunter during a primitive season and post that photo in one of the silly liberal rags with the included inflamatory caption under it.

We already have anough problems from the likes of Diane Feinswine calling anything with a scope on it a sniper rifle without adding to the propaganda.

[BluRidgDav]

The bottom line is that muzzle loading seasons WERE set up by traditional hunters FOR traditional hunters. Like CAS, ML season was anti-progress and anti-technology. It was SUPPOSED to be set aside from improvements. It was NOT an attempt to set back the clock to 1860, wind it up, and see how guns would develope this time. We already know how that turned out.

And to repeat myself, anyone who argues differently is not being honest with himself or his fellow hunters.

Now, as to the question of . . . . . 'Why do I care?'

Because, in-lines are now the equal of a single shot cartridge guns, and this is creating problems for hunting in general.

Fairness, Conflicting Interests, and Hunting with Technology.

Why should a hunter armed with an ultra-modern, scoped, in-line rifle be given a SPECIAL season, over a hunter armed with a single shot cartridge shotgun? The very legitimacy of a special ML season is being challenged by cartridge hunters, AND RIGHTFULLY SO!

Many special ML seasons are scheduled during critical times of the year, like during the "rut". This has real consequences for game management. Due to the increased lethality of in-lines, and the vastly increased number of hunters using them, game departments are starting to constrict the ML seasons. From a harvest standpoint, it's now as if there are TWO gun-seasons, instead of only one. Traditional ML's, with their limited hunting effectiveness and even more limited shooter appeal, caused NO such concerns. Burgeoning deer herds have postponed some of this, but not everywhere, and not for long anywhere.

Soon, I suspect, we will be back where we started. One season.

Ultimately, in-lines will ruin it for EVERYONE. We will loose the special ML season, and alot of in-line shooters will have wasted alot of money on guns they no longer need, and never really wanted. That's too bad, and could have been prevented.

What's really sad, is that this in-line vs. traditional issue is just a preview for the bigger conflict that ALL types of hunting are going to face in the future (if not already); TECHNOLOGY !!!

If we as hunters can't control ourselves when it comes to re-creating an old-fashioned muzzleloading season. How are we ever going to control the technology that is flooding into the regular seasons? LASER's, thermal imaging, scent-control-suits, etc., etc., etc.

And THE NON-HUNTING PUBLIC IS WATCHING !!!

Hunting is, by it's very nature, an anachronistic pursuit. Most of the world's population gave it up for farming about 8,000 years ago. America got a new lease on hunting life, due to a fortunate gift of history & geography. Today, NONE of us NEEDS to hunt. We LIKE to hunt, but we'll all get by without it. Hunting will continue, ONLY as long as the non-hunting population tolerates it. 20 million hunters (and decreasing), 280 million non-hunters (and increasing), you do the math. If they see us as having no self control, no "sportsmanship", using every possible gadget to take advantage of, and kill our game, then they will replace us with other less visibly offensive solutions. Like contract sharpshooters using NVG's and sound-surpressed automatic weapons at night. It's already happening! The deer will still die, but out of sight, so the public will FEEL better about it.

I've been accused of using emotionalism to make my point. Guilty as charged! Humans are emotional critters, and we ignore that fact at our peril. My "dinner with ole Betsy" example is an actual tactic, that I have used, successfully I might add, to win over non-hunters. And like it or not;

Davey Crockett beats Robo-Hunter in a landslide at the voting booth!!!

Happy hunting, while it lasts.

[Magnumdood]

What Dave said!

Wow...I'm gonna copy that and file it for future 'in-line' threads.

Excellent Dave!

[Hemicuda]

My CVA inline is equal to my single shot 30-30 Topper H&R? WOW... that is cool news to me!


Now, both are scoped...

but I can shoot the 30-30 farhter, and ALOT quicker than I can my inline...

my inline is still good only to about 100 yards... even WITH a saboted pistol bullet...

my 30-30 can (and HAS) killed at 200+ yards...

I can shoot the 30-30 single shot about 4 times in the time it takes me to shoot and reload the CVA 1 time...

and it AIN'T due to a lack of practice... I average 500 shots a year or so, playing with my CVA... (used 2 pounds of powder already this year, and season ain't until December here, and I haven't gotten into full-swing practice with it either...) even with the TC speedloaders, I can't shoot the front-stuffer that fast... it ain't gonna happen...

it is FAR from equal to a single-shot rifle... heck, even my 45-70 Trapdoor Springfield is 3 times faster for shot #2... and my Ruger #1 in 243 is WAY FAST comparatively...

that is FAR from equal... just because i like an enclosed primer, and a hotter primer doesn't mean it isn't "fair"... and sorry if you dislike my gun... I didn't buy it to please you! I bought it because it pleases ME...

[Jimmy Mac]

I don't think the inline offers any read advantage. You are not going to kill anything with an inline that I can't get with my flinter or my cap lock. I have been shooting these guns weekly for years.
I don't miss. I know how to make them sure fire. A missfire is my last worry in the woods.

The BS hype and propaganda from the inline makers would make you think that there is a huge advantage there but the only advantage they offer is they are more reliable when dirty.

I hunt with a clean rifle.

[Guyon]

BluRidgDav, you make some good points in your last post and have given me some food for thought.

I'm not entirely sold on the idea that inlines are any worse than flintlocks when it comes to public perception. Almost all of the anti-hunters I know object to the death of the animal at human hands and not to how it died. I'm not sure that liberal soccer moms in their Volvo station wagons really delve too much into hunting technology. Most folks these days know so little about firearms that the term "flintlock" means little or nothing to them. Of course, these are the same folks that happily gobble down their McDonald's hamburgers and like to think that all deer should die of old age and go to deer heaven.

And if Jimmy Mac is right in that inlines offer no real advantage, then the antis don't have much room to argue that technology is getting out of hand.

I'm still going to use my inline, given the short span of TN's season and the fact that I have to hunt when I can. I hunt on public land, and I don't like to hunt much on the weekends. That cuts down on my time even more. I bought my muzzleloader to give me three or four extra days in the season, and I plan to use them. It's my legal right, and I have no moral misgivings about my decision. Like I said before, live and let live.

But I was serious about looking into a traditional muzzleloader for next year. If they're as challenging as you make out, then I ought to like them. I'm always up for a challenge.

[Magnumdood]

I'm not entirely sold on the idea that inlines are any worse than flintlocks when it comes to public perception. Almost all of the anti-hunters I know object to the death of the animal at human hands and not to how it died. I'm not sure that liberal soccer moms in their Volvo station wagons really delve too much into hunting technology. Most folks these days know so little about firearms that the term "flintlock" means little or nothing to them. Of course, these are the same folks that happily gobble down their McDonald's hamburgers and like to think that all deer should die of old age and go to deer heaven.

And if Jimmy Mac is right in that inlines offer no real advantage, then the antis don't have much room to argue that technology is getting out of hand.

Guyon,

I agree with a lot of what you observe. But, the one thing anyone who watches TV recognizes is a rifle scope. And thanks to TV once again, the general public is under the mistaken impression that having a scope on a firearm virtually assures you will hit what you want to hit. As a matter of fact, the less a person knows about firearms, the more likely he/she will believe a scope makes a hit 100% guaranteed. Just take a look at the various proposed 'sniper rifle' restrictions/laws that crop up more and more frequently in the federal and state governments. The central theme is a rifle, any rifle mind you, that has a scope on it – any scope.

I won't give up my scoped rifle anytime soon...but I believe that allowing scoped in-lines during muzzle loading season really has the potential to give the hunting community a public relations black eye.

[pawcatch]

We've only had a muzzleloader in Georgia for about three years now and the DNR specifically had inlines in mind when they started our primitive weapons season.So in my state it would be incorrect to say that our primitive weapons season was started for the mountain men,buckskinners,ect.

OTOH,I don't like yuppies buying cage traps and using them to trap in the furbearer trapping seaon.The trapping season was started for men to use real traps,but if they want to use their cage traps I won't stop them.

[Teltech]

I have to agree with Jimmy Mac.
I think that the spirit of the muzzleloading season is primitive.

Could be wrong but I think in NY State they used to call it primitive season. Then muzzleloading, next it will be blackpowder season.

I agree it's legal to use inline, but I think it conflicts with the spirit of the original intent.

I don't think they opened up the extra week just so hunters could go out and bag more deer.

Why not just make the season a week longer and use whatever you want?

Question: Bow hunters. Do you think you should be allowed to use crossbows during bow season?

[pawcatch]

Teltech,crossbows were just legalized for bow season in my state and only a small minority of hunters objected in the polls.

[Dave McC]

Ladies and Gents, my $.02....

I've been using various BP guns since the 60s, when Pop got into Civil War Centennial re-enactments.

When Md started a ML Season, I had the first combination license sold in the county. I've taken deer and some small game with Round balls, Minie balls, Maxi balls, and so on.

Outside of a H&R "Huntsman", a break open 58 caliber M/L based on their shotgun action, none of my 10 or so BP rifles have been an inline. I like the old stuff better, and it works for me.

Last year was pretty busy, so I only fired three shots from my TC High Plains Sporter.

The first one was to check zero. It was perfect.

Shots two and three were at deer. Checked in both of them, and neither ran more than 50 yards after center of shoulder hits.

And while I was doing this, my two closest hunting buds were having misfires with their inlines. One missed out on a very nice buck when his Remington 700 ML misfired. The other lost a chance at a meat doe with his Encore.

I've never had a glitch in the field with a classic ML. And I like the simplicity,history and looks of the older style stuff.

Back when I could bowhunt, I used a longbow while those two guys used state of art compounds, releases, carbon arrers and so on. They may have taken more deer, but sure didn't have more fun.

So here's my policy statement....

I care not a whit if the next hunter over is using a bow whittled out from a fencepost or something belt fed and lazer sighted as long as he or she is hunting legally, safely, ethically, and mostly hits where it counts.

What counts is what we hold in our hearts, not what we hold in our hands.

(Dismounting from pulpit)....

[Jimmy Mac]

It seems that you can't hunt with a dirty gun even if it is an inline.

[Jarhead Ed]

Sorry for brining up an old topic.....I just bought a new inline muzzleloader last night. For me, it was the only way to go. For one: I have four children, so the use of my income extends far beyond my personal weapon collection. And two: Here on Camp Lejeune, you have there are two weapons you may use....Shotgun, or Muzzloader. For $100, the choice is pretty obvious. Even in kit form (which I'd love to build) you can't top the price.

I've been shooting muzzloaders since long before they were cool, and have worn out more than one barrel. Yep, I cut the cards, split the ball on a double bit axe, threw a tomohawk, and hit that 200 yard gong more than once. Here's a novel idea, instead of pushing all the elitist crap, you could try welcoming folks to community. Never met your first muzzloading arsehole?? I did. In this thread.


s/f
Ed

[BluRidgDav]

Ed,

First, THANK YOU for your service to our Country!

Second, I wish you luck during the coming deer season(s).

Last, This thread's been "dead" for over two years.
There's no need to dig it up, just to call folks bad names.

BRD.

[Jarhead Ed]

Holy Smokes! I hadn't realized it was over two years....al I saw was "8-23"....

Anyway, I'm sure you can understand how someone can feel passionately about this topic regardless of which side he chooses....and I'll leave it at that.


Ed